Justin Amey Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 This doesn't actually make a lot of sense. Let's say Stannis got suspicious that Cersei had been cheating on Robert and the kids were not his, due to Robert's comments and the fact that all of Robert's bastards looked like him (not that this is any proof - his kids with Cersei could still happen to look just like their mother). But how on Earth do you jump from that to the conclusion that she's fucking her twin brother, of all people, and that he must be the real father of the kids?! Wouldn't the natural conclusion be to look for the father, or fathers (who says all three must have the same father, if they're all bastards?) among other men at court Cersei has been around? "The children look like their mother... that means they must have been fathered by her brother, who looks like her!" Uh, no. That's not the natural conclusion anyone would have come up with. It's all backwards. The reason why we, the readers, easily guessed that Jamie was their father was because we already knew Jamie and Cersei were fucking. Incest is not something people would first assume. So, the only reason why Stannis or someone else would get suspicious that Jamie was their father would be because there were signs that there was something between Jamie and Cersei that didn't fit with how siblings normally behaved with each other. Which would not be surprising at all - Cersei and Jaime really do often act that way that someone who spends a lot of time around them both for years could guess what was going on - especially if they're close to them (Tyrion, Kevan - though we don't know whether the latter had any idea before hearing the rumors) or perceptive/spymasters (LF, Varys)... if we were talking about anyone other than Stannis. Stannis doesn't seem like someone who would be incredibly perceptive about other people's emotions, body language etc. Did he really conclude on his own that Cersei and Jaime were sleeping together? Sure, some people at court did who were not their family members who knew them from early age - LF and Varys knew, but that's to be expected - but Renly, for instance, did not figure it out. However, I can't see Stannis taking info from LF or Varys and believing them. But maybe one of them subtly clued him in through other people without making it obvious? He didn't jump to conclusion, he jumped to suspicion. He went to Jon went those suspicion which led to a secret investigation, the investigation led to the conclusion How would two years in the capital have helped Sansa realize that Loras was Renly's lover, when she only met Renly twice for a short amount of time at the very beginning, never saw him and Loras together, and only met Loras twice and had one single conversation with him? It's not like Cersei, Joffrey, Tyrion, Sandor, Dontos or the Tyrells themselves, or anyone else she spent any significant amount of time with, were offering info on Renly and Loras. :dunno: By being observant maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Maggy the Frog's prophecy could be considered a major hint to her children's father: Cersei: Will the king and I have children? Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you. Even though I have 0 believe in Robert being the father, I don't think this says anything really. Why isn't it possible that she just meant: 3 of you both and 13 bastards for him with other women? You can argue that in that case she probably would've said three for both of you and another thirtheen for him. But than again, Maggy wasn't happy with the kids asking questions, so giving it away like this so there's some room for speculation... I think she could have done it one purpose. Anyway, IMO the kids are Jaime's (I don't think there is any reason to doubt it). But the prophecy doesn't prove that they aren't Roberts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Stannis was desperate as always to be king sohe made up the craziest story he could to do it. Only godlike coincidence made him actually correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Stannis was desperate as always to be king sohe made up the craziest story he could to do it. Only godlike coincidence made him actually correct. Yes, indeed, he made the whole thing up. It's not like he, Jon Arryn and subsequently Ned conducted a thorough investigation, interviewing a number of King Robert's bastards and/or their mothers, and (in Jon Arryn and Ned's cases) studying genealogical records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melx Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Littlefinger (or Varys) told him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Stannis was desperate as always to be king sohe made up the craziest story he could to do it. Only godlike coincidence made him actually correct. Go troll someone else. Even if he could prove it, it wouldn't make him King, since he was investigating it before Robert died. If he would've proved it while Robert was still alive, Robert could've legitimized one of is bastards and therefor Stannis still wouldn't be King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Go troll someone else. Even if he could prove it, it wouldn't make him King, since he was investigating it before Robert died. If he would've proved it while Robert was still alive, Robert could've legitimized one of is bastards and therefor Stannis still wouldn't be King. If Stannis didn't want the throne he could legitimize one of Robert's bastards himself, rather than trying to use them as blood sacrifices.The OP's question should be how did Stannis "know"? And the answer is he didn't, since the investigation was done with Jon after Stannis told Jon. Therefore yea, Stannis just BS'd his butt off and got lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 He took one look at them, then looked at Robert, then looked at them again, then back to Robert and realized shit doesn't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 If Stannis didn't want the throne he could legitimize one of Robert's bastards himself, rather than trying to use them as blood sacrifices. Genius. He need only make himself king, legitimize a bastard, then stop being a king, hoping that nobody takes issue with such a blatant disregard for succession. Further, you're attacking a strawman, as if Attitude said Stannis doesn't want to be king, when in fact that post was only contesting your ridiculous claim that Stannis is some sort of crazy man making up elaborate stories to steal the crown that is not supported by the text or the author whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 If Stannis didn't want the throne he could legitimize one of Robert's bastards himself, rather than trying to use them as blood sacrifices.The OP's question should be how did Stannis "know"? And the answer is he didn't, since the investigation was done with Jon after Stannis told Jon. Therefore yea, Stannis just BS'd his butt off and got lucky. He had a suspicion, that was true, what part of that is BS or lucky? Also why the hell is Stannis under any responsibility to legitimize Robert's bastards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 If Stannis didn't want the throne he could legitimize one of Robert's bastards himself, rather than trying to use them as blood sacrifices.The OP's question should be how did Stannis "know"? And the answer is he didn't, since the investigation was done with Jon after Stannis told Jon. Therefore yea, Stannis just BS'd his butt off and got lucky. Yeah that'll work. I bet that if Stannis says: Wait here's a bastard of Robert, I (as a rebellious King) declare him legal. So get Joffrey/Tommen from that throne because this guy is older. Sure, of course Cersei would've run to her kids and say; sorry kids, you're no longer important to me, bye! I never said he didn't want to throne, and I am sure he wants it over one of Roberts bastards (iirc, Stannis is close to disgusted by the fact that Robert has so many). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 He took one look at them, then looked at Robert, then looked at them again, then back to Robert and realized shit doesn't add up. And from there he jumped right to: "They look like Cersei... this means they must have been fathered by her brother"! - because that's the first and most natural assumption you'd make when kids look just like their mother?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 And from there he jumped right to: "They look like Cersei... this means they must have been fathered by her brother"! - because that's the first and most natural assumption you'd make when kids look just like their mother?! It's much more likely that there were a million little hints or almost-slip-ups that Cercei and/or Jaime made over the years that, while innocent-seeming on their own, would have distilled into suspicion. Apparently, all Baratheon children have black hair, a family trait of sorts, and it's quite likely that comments on this suddenly not being the case in any of the royal children would have been made from time to time (with or without any intent to cause trouble). But, whatever the actual reasons, the fact of the matter is that Jon, Ned and Stannis all come to the correct conclusion - they take slightly different routes to get there, perhaps, but they do get there in the end. Being right even if your method of arriving at the right answer is suspect or unexplained does not make you wrong - it just makes you unable to prove the truth of it, which is Stannis' problem in a nutshell. Of course this problem is compounded by there being no objective way to prove the true parentage of the children. It's all circumstantial, suggestive speculation - short of a confession, in any case. Which incidentally is what Ned tries to get Cersei to do when he suggests she run: implicate herself beyond a shadow of doubt. Well, and an attempt to save the children, who are not to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 And from there he jumped right to: "They look like Cersei... this means they must have been fathered by her brother"! - because that's the first and most natural assumption you'd make when kids look just like their mother?! He had literally years to arrive at that conclusion. Eleven years in Joffrey's case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 He had literally years to arrive at that conclusion. Eleven years in Joffrey's case. The point is that nothing about the children's looks or lack of similarity to Robert points to Jaime being the father, as Morgana Manderly claims. It only points out (though it's not proof) that Robert is not the father. But "the children must be products of incest with her twin brother" is not the first assumption anyone would make based just on that. What would point out to Jamie being the father would be signs of incestuous feelings/behavior between Cersei and Jaime. So, either Stannis (or anyone else figuring it out) would notice that, suspect them of having an affair, and then wonder about the parentage of children; or he would get suspicious of the parentage of children, start wondering who the real father may be and considering various men, and then notice the signs of incest between Jaime and Cersei. ETA: And I have to wonder what finally tipped him off, or made him convinced, since he brought his suspicions to Jon Arryn not long before the start of AGOT. He certainly didn't catch them or have some other proof of the affair, or he would have mentioned it by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Ah ok, then I misunderstood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biter the Gallant Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Go troll someone else. Even if he could prove it, it wouldn't make him King, since he was investigating it before Robert died. If he would've proved it while Robert was still alive, Robert could've legitimized one of is bastards and therefor Stannis still wouldn't be King. And there would have been also the possibility of Robert getting married again, and making some legitimate children. He was only thirty-six years old after all, and a very fertile man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 According to Varys the idea that they were bastards was suggested to Stannis, they he "names no name". Tyrion suspects Littlefinger, and that fits in with what we know about him. Littlefinger obviously wouldn't have said anything to overt to Stannis, else he would have got someone else to imply something regarding bastardy or adultery. Maybe he arranged for Stannis to hear a few people talking about the Dragonknight's supposed treason with Naerys shortly after Tommen's birth. That's obviously complete speculation, we only have Varys vaguely implying he was told suggesting that he didn't figure it out himself at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
239JMFL34109 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I alway thought Mel pushed stannis. he went to jon and they found proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Stannis knows all . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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