Why weren't Ned's kids fostered?

[Musashisamurai]

Hoosier,

The difference is that (except for the Boltons) all the major bannermen in the North love the Starks. My favorite example is one of Jon's chapters, where he mentions that two NW commanders went to war with each other, and a Stark boy ended the war (or like, they both stopped when he commanded them to and was named Lord Commander, despite only being 7 or so). The Umbers, Karstarks (who are distant kin), Manderly's, Reeds, Cerwyns (a days ride away), Glovers, Mormonts...all would have loved to foster Ned's sons, and would never have betrayed him. Plus, I think fostering works a little like guest rights. If you kill your foster child, you immediately lose all prestige and trust (not to mention you lose your bargaining chip). I don't think Ned would have feared for Robb's or his other son's lives if they had fostered in the North. KL maybe, because of the Lannisters

As for the Ironborn, Bear Island has been held for like what, 5 centuries, from Ironborn raiders. Not to mention, Ned has Balon's son, and Balon was recently defeated by the Starks, Baratheons, and Lannisters. the likelihood f=of a random Ironborn attack are quite small to say the least, the Ironborn only attacked in Wot5K because the North was unguarded.

[Ser Leftwich]

One thing that struck me was that Ned was fostering Theon and thereby making that relationship between Robb and Theon. It accomplishes something similar to sending Robb away.

Also, Ned was politically inept and keeping his head down as much as possible.

[Nic.]

Figured Ned wanted his eldest son close so he could teach him how to rule. His other two sons were probably to young to be sent off.

[Pikachu101]

Figured Ned wanted his eldest son close so he could teach him how to rule. His other two sons were probably to young to be sent off.

Yup, this is most likely it

Also Ned was the only one who Rickard had fostered away (Brandon was still in the North), maybe he felt isolated from the rest of his family and didn't want his kids to suffer the same way :dunno:

[Colonel Green]

Also Ned was the only one who Rickard had fostered away (Brandon was still in the North), maybe he felt isolated from the rest of his family and didn't want his kids to suffer the same way :dunno:

Ned recalls his time at the Eyrie as some of the happiest years of his life, from what we see.

[Danelle]

I think that the reason is really simple.

GRRM wanted the Starks to be as isolated as possible from the world and the children, from Robb to Rickon, to have limited interactions with outsiders.

This explains lots of things such as:

• Robb's admiration for Theon. If Robb had been close to other young men of his age, then he wouldn't have been so close with Theon and he would have realized that he is very arrogant.
  
• Jon's difficulty to adjust in the Wall and his reluctance to socialize with the new recruits. Jon although he was an outsider in Winterfell he was still part of the family and spent time with his siblings. If lets say, he was fostered with the Mormonts or the Umbers, then going to the Wall it would be the second time that he was forced to leave home.
  
• Sansa would have met more people and she would be less naive socially.
  
• Likewise, Arya's interactions would help her understand that there is a world beyond Winterfell and not every highborn girl has to be like Sansa or Jeyne (not that there is anything wrong with that but Arya didn't have any friends that she could relate to).
  
• Bran would be given the chance to meet real knights and perhaps he could have become a squire.
  
• Rickon was friends with the Freys, and I guess that he could benefit from the interaction with people who are not his family.
  

A major theme in the books is the bonds of love and devotion between members of house Stark and the extent that they will go through to protect/help each other. The two most notable examples are Robb's refusal to trade Jaime for Sansa and Arya-which eventually leads to Cat's decision to release Jaime, and Jon's controversial decision to go and save Arya from Ramsay.

If at the beginning of GOT any of the Stark kids had been fostered away, the bond between would not have been that intense and they would definitely be less naive and more cautious.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Jon Snow finds himself shipped to the Daynes

I don't believe that shipping Jon to the other corner of the Earth Westeros is protecting him or raising him.

As for why they were not fostered? Because Cersei's children were not fostered, Hoster's children were not fostered, the Tyrells were not fostered. Because some parents want to foster them and some parents chose not to do that.

[oopeed]

Why would he? Ned already had blood ties to the Riverlands and the Vale, and the King considered him his best friend. Before GoT, the Starks were probably only seconds to Baratheons in terms of security of their legacy, probably the most secure.

Ned also seems to be keeper of northern tradition, and I don't think fostering is much of a tradition up there, otherwise a lot of guys would plan to send their kids to make friends with Robb or Sansa. The only ones we see and they are not fosters, are the Reeds who come in a mission as protectors and advisors of their prince.

Also Robb was being mentored to be Lord of Winterfell, Jon was being zealously kept, Sansa was too old to be companion to Princess Myrcella, and the rest of the girls of Westeros were below her station. Arya on the other side was too wild, and Bran and Rickon too young.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why would he? Ned already had blood ties to the Riverlands and the Vale, and the King considered him his best friend. Before GoT, the Starks were probably only seconds to Baratheons in terms of security of their legacy, probably the most secure.

Ned doesn't have blood ties to the Vale. Cat does.

Ned also seems to be keeper of northern tradition, and I don't think fostering is much of a tradition up there, otherwise a lot of guys would plan to send their kids to make friends with Robb or Sansa. The only ones we see and they are not fosters, are the Reeds who come in a mission as protectors and advisors of their prince.

Agree. Fostering Ned and Brandon could be Rickard's southern ambitions.

Also Robb was being mentored to be Lord of Winterfell, Jon was being zealously kept, Sansa was too old to be companion to Princess Myrcella, and the rest of the girls of Westeros were below her station. Arya on the other side was too wild, and Bran and Rickon too young.

No. Sansa was not too old to be Myrcella companion or lady in waiting and no she isn't the top of the social food chain. Myrcella is before her, she is the same with Margery and maybe lower than Arianne.

I believe that the unmarried highborn social chain is Myrcella->Arianne->Marg and Sansa->other maidens.

[Pod The Impaler]

This is something that we have been wondering for quite a while. Not only that it shows how Ned was politically inept, but Catelyn should have known better. Plus, at the beginning, we actually see that Starks don't have political circle around them in Winterfell. I mean, Ned is this man with reputation, certainly someone thought of him being worthy of raising their children. Catelyn is a Tully married to a Stark, but there is no highborn girl around Sansa and Arya (in comparison look at Margaery's entourage). And it is not like there weren't girls in the North - Mormont girls, Manderly girls, Alys Karstark. We know Robb and Jon followed Ned during his journeys, but lack of developed friendships with boys who would become heirs of their houses is a bit troubling.

Overall, whatever was the reason, it just shows how Starks were politically unprepared.

I do not agree. Ned knows as well as any other lord what wards are about - be it on a friendly arrangement (as with him and Robert) or unfriendly (as with Theon). Ned never neglected any aspect of his being a lord, yet his actions betray a certain deliberate isolationism.

I think something else may have been motivating Ned. We do not know if Ned ever was happy to be fostered in the Eyrie, aside from his being a friend to Robert. His past experiences include the positive aspects, but also the fact that he lost a lot of years with his own family, his father, brother, and sister dying soon after - and he returns to Winterfell as its lord, having been absent for years.

Plus there is his promise of protection for Jon Snow, I think. (Yes, I believe in R+L=J.) To keep Jon safe, the less visitors the better; it means less potential spies and less curious gossipers to ask questions.

After Robert becomes king, Ned went south all of one time - to war against the Greyjoys. Of Northern lords, Winterfell seems to have had plenty of bannermen as visitors. Yet it should also be noted that until Robert arrives, we do not hear of any non-Northern highborn visitors, save the Royces whose are taking Waymar to the Wall. Even the Tullys do not seem to have come North even once to visit Catelyn and meet her children; nor did any of them go south. Surely Edmure or the Blackfish could have managed the journey. Surely Stannis, master of ships, might have paid a call at White Harbour and requested his audience. Or Jon Arryn - Hand of the King and Ned's mentor, might have done so himself.

Instead, what we see is the Winterfell holding aloof from seemingly everything south of the Neck, and Ned Stark keeping his children close to home. Whether this was wise or not is another question, but I would say it is deliberate caution, not inattention.

However, what we'll never know is what had been intended by Ned and Cat if the events in the book had not happened. Maybe Robb would have been betrothed fairly soon anyway. Maybe Sansa was going to be sent to Riverrun shortly after her flowering. Maybe Bran would have been fostered with someone like the Royces or Arya with the Reeds. Maybe Jon might have been wed to Mya Stone. Etc. etc. ... a ton of possible scenarios, none of which could come to pass, and which are fairly irrelevant to the story, unless they were to actually be mentioned in the story.

[Mladen]

I do not agree. Ned knows as well as any other lord what wards are about - be it on a friendly arrangement (as with him and Robert) or unfriendly (as with Theon). Ned never neglected any aspect of his being a lord, yet his actions betray a certain deliberate isolationism.

I think something else may have been motivating Ned. We do not know if Ned ever was happy to be fostered in the Eyrie, aside from his being a friend to Robert. His past experiences include the positive aspects, but also the fact that he lost a lot of years with his own family, his father, brother, and sister dying soon after - and he returns to Winterfell as its lord, having been absent for years.

In some conversation, GRRM stated that although Ned was raised in Eyrie, he has been visiting Winterfell on numerous occasions, and that he wasn't a stranger in Winterfell, or at least unknown to wider population. So, we can't say that Ned was that isolated from his family. If we add Jon in equation, than yes, being isolated and keeping low profile does seem rather logical. But Catelyn who has never been told the secret certainly could have organized that at least her girls have some sort of trusted circle of friends around them. If we can say that Ned was deliberately isolated from the main events in capital, Catelyn's opinion on this does seem a bit weird. But at the same time, who knows what she thought about fostering someone after Petyr episode?

[Musashisamurai]

Pod,

I always did wonder about Jon's non-NW future. Early in AGOT, Jon or Benjen mentions that Ned wants to raise new keeps and lords in the Gift, and that Jon might possibly have been one such lord/master (master seems to be the landed knight of the North, since they don't have the same traditions as the South, though there are some knights). And while I think Ned's bannermen would rather see their daughters wed to Ned's trueborn sons, I think if a lady from some house wed Jon, that house would go right to the top of Ned's good list. While I think Ned was going to allow his children to wed for love (because he didn't want a repeat a Lyanna/Robert/Rhaegar, possibly), we don't know. If he was going to betroth Robb, I see it as the older Manderly girl Wynafryd, or one of the Mormont girls because the ages fit and they are both loyal bannermen. House Manderly is the strongest Northern bannermen after all. I could also him marrying Jon (if he made Jon a lord of one of those new castles) or Robb off to a Mormont to get Jeor Mormonts support for his plans in the Gift (which Ned would need). Or maybe, just strengthen the ties as part of that plan.

[melx]

......Ned was fostering Theon

yes he was fostering Theon in same way that Night's Watch fostering killers,rapists....

[Jon's Queen Consort]

yes he was fostering Theon in same way that Night's Watch fostering killers,rapists....

not really. Theon had something that no men of the NW had. He had hope.

[Colonel Green]

While I think Ned was going to allow his children to wed for love

Er, no. What little we see of Ned's thoughts of his kids' marriages (and he really hasn't put much thought into this at all, from what we seen of them), he fully intends to pick his kids' spouses. Arranged marriage is the norm in Westeros, and Ned is eminently traditional.

[melx]

not really. Theon had something that no men of the NW had. He had hope.

hope is the "big" difference while lack of freedom is "little" thing in common...

hostage is hostage everywhere except when hostage is kept by "honorable" Ned then hostage becomes "fostered as a ward".......funny that :bang:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

hope is the "big" difference while lack of freedom is "little" thing in common...

hostage is hostage everywhere except when hostage is kept by "honorable" Ned then hostage becomes "fostered as a ward".......funny that :bang:

Well technically he was a hostage but he was treated better than a hostage.

[melx]

Well technically he was a hostage but he was treated better than a hostage.

technically?

the most noble hostage are treated very good as a rule,there are exemptions for sure but in low percentage

but "technically" stark are so good that everything they do is better and oh so honorable ...

[Musashisamurai]

Colonel Green,

I couldn't remember where Ned thought about his children's marriages, I was just thinking that based on how he treats Arya (hiring Syrio to teach her) and his own past with Lyanna. It made sense he might try to not repeat Rickard's mistakes. You do have a point though, he agreed to Sansa's betrothal pretty quickly.

I do think he would have been more open to his children's suggestions though-if for example, Robb had fallen in love with one his bannermen's daughters that also wasn't betrothed, I hardly imagine Ned ending that relationship. Or if Ned had planned to marry him to someone else, and found out they were horrible jerks, like Joffrey.

[Fae Boleyn]

Well, we now know that some in the north blamed Rickard's southern ties - unusual in a Lord of Winterfell - for what happened to him, Brandon, and Lyanna in that if he'd never gotten involved it wouldn't have happened. So that likely explains why no one was going to be fostered south.

What I don't get is, like others have noted, is why not foster north? Hell, why wasn't that an option for Jon in AGoT? Even taking R+L=J as fact, fostering only helps the cover story as it's expected that Jon would not be resident in Winterfell. Larence Snow and even Edric Storm are examples of fostered bastards. White Harbor would have been good; cities in general offer more opportunity and Jon could have been knighted there, earning a title that carries some respect. Northern noble children should have been fostered at Winterfell, too, as noted.

And even if fostering hadn't happened, there's no betrothals. Cat doesn't even mention, even when it would make sense to think back on it, if there were any plans for betrothals. Robb at least should have been up for consideration if not already promised. Especially considering the Rickard thing; Ned earned his people's loyalty but he didn't work to secure that for the future.

(Another mistake imo was not insisting Ben marry and found a cadet branch considering they and baby Robb were the only legitimate Starks following the war, but that's another story.)