Why weren't Ned's kids fostered?

[In A Coat of Gold]

Ned was a great leader. He just wasn't politically savvy or talented at all in dealing with people he didn't already have built in loyalty from.

[Northbound3.0]

Whatever reason there is for the Stark kids not being fostered, or the lack of Highborn children being fostered at Winterfell; I'm absolutely positive that some how, some way.....it was Cat's fault.

(Yes, that was sarcasm.)

[Mladen]

Well you have to remember that customs in the North and South are different. Lyanna didn't seem to have ladies in waiting either. Look at the other Northern Girls we see, do they see like the ladies in waiting type?

Ned was a great Lord, one of the best in the series. Sure, he wasn't cut out for the lies and manipulation down south but he knew his own turf, he knew his own people. He travelled to see them extensively and took his children. Ned is dead and people are still fighting for him. That is the mark of a spectacular man.

The differences between South and North, although existent, are not that big. Rickard sent his children to be fostered all over the continent, and we see here so little interaction between Ned's children and even children of his bannermen. And, yes, they do seem like it would be their honor to be ladies in waiting of a Stark. Not all Northern women are Aryas. We have Wynafred Manderly who seems lady-like, and even Wylla is fierce, it doesn't mean that she wouldn't be glad to go to Winterfell. Same for Mormont women. They could have been raised with Sansa and Arya in Winterfell without any problems. Alys Karstark is also a good option. Lady in waiting doesn't necessarily means that they spent days sewing, it could have been arranged for them to be raised according to their parents' desires.

If Ned wasn't cut out for Southern lies and manipulations, what makes you conclude that he was cut out for Northern lies and manipulations? Or the betrayal, lies and plots are different in South and North. I agree that he was a spectacular man that inspired loyalty with his men, same as Robb, and that is the prove that force sometimes isn't enough, but Ned failed in certain things. Being Lord doesn't just mean being popular figure, it also means that you are able to deal with the usual machinations.

[Bob Sacamano]

Well he had to endure almost his entire family dying within the span of a year. He probably wanted to keep the rest of his family close. Plus the realm was relatively stable with Robert. There was no need to foster his children with another Lord. There was, because of marriages, strong alliances between Stark-Tully-Arryn-Lannister-Baratheon already. No need to foster his children. I guess he could have sent a kid to Highgarden, but it wasn't neccesary.

Now, we all know quickly those alliances fell apart. But no one could have anticipated that, unless you're Varys or Littlefinger.

[239JMFL34109]

i alway thought losing his family in the war made him want to keep his family together. there was still time for bran and rickon. Part of me wonders if Because he would not send Jon away to be fostered that Cat would not let him have Robb be fostered

[Maid So Fair]

I believe that GRRM admitted he wishes he gave Sansa an Arya some laides in waiting besides Jayne Poole. It's much more suprising that Cersei doesn't seem to have any companions besides hand servants as the Queen of 7K but maybe that's just because of her abrasive personality.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I'm going to sound really stupid now but... isn't squiring mainly a tourney thing? In peace time anyway? What use would a Northerner (who generally shun tourneys) have for a squire? Is it a 'thing' in the north?

It should be, northmen have heavy cavalry and noble men-at-arms, these are guys that 1. have better things to do then spend hours keeping their weapons and armour clean, 2. need someone to help them put armour on.

A misconception on this forum is that only certain lords and knights would have squires, as many are never mentioned as having squires. This may be a misconception that GRRM shares in, but the fact is men who function as knights (whether they are "sers/sirs' or not) need someone to help them put on armour, pass them new lances and fetch their weapons, hold their prisoners, bear their banners and so forth. Northmen have no less need of squires than southerners, though presumably there is no formal transition from squire to warrior, someone is just accepted as a warrior in their own right after they have proved themselves.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

This is something that we have been wondering for quite a while. Not only that it shows how Ned was politically inept, but Catelyn should have known better. Plus, at the beginning, we actually see that Starks don't have political circle around them in Winterfell. I mean, Ned is this man with reputation, certainly someone thought of him being worthy of raising their children. Catelyn is a Tully married to a Stark, but there is no highborn girl around Sansa and Arya (in comparison look at Margaery's entourage). And it is not like there weren't girls in the North - Mormont girls, Manderly girls, Alys Karstark. We know Robb and Jon followed Ned during his journeys, but lack of developed friendships with boys who would become heirs of their houses is a bit troubling.

Overall, whatever was the reason, it just shows how Starks were politically unprepared.

Like he would have respected her wish regarding Bran? Cat may have been reluctant, but if there wasn't for fall, Bran would have gone to KL.

I always viewed that as Martin depicting an unrealistically barebones north, where almost everyone is isolated and has little contact with one another.

Remember there is not really any talk of fostering in the north in book 1, the only time I can think of before book 5 is Lawrence Snow, who can't live at Hornwood because of Lady Donella.

You may well be right that it is the Stark parents putting their attachments above political necessities, but it may also be Martin simply not considering many things when writing book 1, and wanting to portray a westerosi "nuclear family", give or take. If Ned had a dozen wards and some of his children were living in different castles then the focus would be off Theon and the important Winterfell characters, and some of the Stark kids would be out of the picture.

[Colonel Green]

I believe that GRRM admitted he wishes he gave Sansa an Arya some laides in waiting besides Jayne Poole. It's much more suprising that Cersei doesn't seem to have any companions besides hand servants as the Queen of 7K but maybe that's just because of her abrasive personality.

I don't know if he said about Sansa and Arya, but he did say it about Catelyn, whose lack of an entourage is pretty dumb. She would have a bunch of ladies-in-waiting (and, more generally, there should be a meaningful Tully presence at Winterfell at the start of the series; people like Catelyn weren't just shipped off on their own, something GRRM becomes more aware of in later books, e.g., Myrcella's company in Dorne).

Sansa to the Royces; and

Arya to the Mormonts.

Regarding this, girls were not typically fostered. There'd be no value in sending Sansa or Arya to Runestone, or whatever. For girls of their status, the only arrangement that would reasonably be considered would be to go to King's Landing and serve as ladies in waiting to either Cersei or Myrcella.

Conversely, the lack of Ned's bannermen's children at Winterfell is really hard to understand. Where are Ned's squires? People like Cley Cerwyn, etc. should be filling those types of offices. Likewise, there should be a cluster of noble girls around Sansa and Arya, akin to what Margaery has (their fathers would be keen to send them for, among other reasons, the hope that Robb would become partial to one of them).

[Maid So Fair]

I don't know if he said about Sansa and Arya, but he did say it about Catelyn, whose lack of an entourage is pretty dumb. She would have a bunch of ladies-in-waiting (and, more generally, there should be a meaningful Tully presence at Winterfell at the start of the series; people like Catelyn weren't just shipped off on their own, something GRRM becomes more aware of in later books, e.g., Myrcella's company in Dorne).

Regarding this, girls were not typically fostered. There'd be no value in sending Sansa or Arya to Runestone, or whatever. For girls of their status, the only arrangement that would reasonably be considered would be to go to King's Landing and serve as ladies in waiting to either Cersei or Myrcella.

Conversely, the lack of Ned's bannermen's children at Winterfell is really hard to understand. Where are Ned's squires? People like Cley Cerwyn, etc. should be filling those types of offices. Likewise, there should be a cluster of noble girls around Sansa and Arya, akin to what Margaery has (their fathers would be keen to send them for, among other reasons, the hope that Robb would become partial to one of them).

It's possible, I don't remember the details just that he commented on the lack of ladies-in-waiting in the Winterfell household. It could have been Catelyn.

[l2 0 5 5]

Bran and Rickon would probably have been the best candidates for being fostered. Bran was gonna have a close opportunity to do that by traveling to KL with Ned. He would have gotten an array of advice and training from different minds around the 7 K there. Being the two younger sons, they were most likely gonna have to find a role elsewhere (even if that role kept them in the North). Obviously, events changed that.

As for Jon, there was zero chance Ned would let him leave the North. The OP suggested sending him to the Daynes -- No. That would have been one of the worst places to send him; being so close to the ToJ. The likelihood of him being revealed for who he is would have increased by going to Starfall.

As for Robb, I suppose Ned wanted him groomed at Winterfell so he could be a just lord one day.

[Purity]

Why should they be fostered? Jaime Cersei and Tyrion weren`t.

Quote from the wiki

At the age of eleven, Jaime was sent to Crakehall to squire for old Lord Sumner Crakehall alongside Merrett Frey. Two years later, while still a squire, he won his first tourney melee.

Jaime was fostered indeed. Cersei is a girl (daughter of a Lord Paramount) so no fostering would be expected and Tyrion was too much of an embarrassment for being "paraded" around.

I believe the fact that the Stark kids were not fostered may be related to

1. Ned's shy and reserved temperament

2. His introspection when it comes to not wanting to be related with the remaining kingdoms.

"Hey people, your tournaments and seven gods are all fine and such, nothing against. But in the north we face real shit! Like a cold so cold it freezes in your num when you're number-twoing, allright? My children are not going to be raised for being shallow and vain, but noble and honorable and dutiful. Dixit."

[Musashisamurai]

Ned never fostered his kids because:

A) Rickard fostered his children, and it didn't turn out so well. If I had such a traumatic life, I too might blame it on his "southron ambitions". I also think Ned wanted to keep his children safe, and where better than Winterfell. Same topic, Ned's bannermen loved him. In fact, I'm not sure if Roose would have betrayed the Starks if Ned was alive, because going back North would be suicide.

B) Which one? Sansa and Arya wouldn't likely be fostered, though in a few years, I could see Ned sending Arya to Bear Island. Robb was his heir, Rickon and Bran too young.

C) While Jon might have been sent to foster, like Larence Snow or someone, Ned wanted to keep Jon close to him to keep him safe. He didn't want people thinking about Jon's parentage.

If Ned had fostered his children out, I think it would have been Bran to the Manderlies and Rickon to the Karstarks or Umbers, or vice versa. Bran wanted to be a knight, so I could also see him going to Rivverun, to the Eyrie (to squire for the Blackfish) or even raventree hall since they are a first men house.

The only house Ned would have trusted Jon to was House Reed, so if Jon was sent anywhere it'd be there. In some cases, I'm sometimes surprised Ned didn't leave Jon there in Greywater Watch. Howland would have raised him, with periodic trips from Ned, and no one would even know Ned had a bastard. If asked, Howland could claim that he didn't know if Jon was actually Ned's son, but because he looked so much like a Stark, he wouldn't abandon him. If a southron discovered Jon, they wouldn't be able to prove their suspicions since no one can find Greywater watch (and hence Jon), or be able to contact him. Of course, Ned would have wanted to keep his sister's only son with him, so this is unlikely.

Sansa and Arya would likely only be sent to their future husbands' seat, and even that's unlikely.

I am surprised that, apart from Theon, Ned never fostered any kids, such as Tommen (though, it was likely Cersei preventing Jon Arrryn from fostering her children), or his bannermen's children.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Ned never fostered his kids because... they needed to be all together at the beginning of the books to receive each a direwolf.

[Pikachu101]

Ned should have sent Jon to be fostered, the fact that he didn't proves R+L=J imo

Robert was fostered by Jon so I doubt it would be so bad if Robb was, personally I think that was Cat because she needed to make sure people remembered who Ned's trueborn son is

I haven't heard of girls being fostered so I doubt Sansa and Arya would be sent away :dunno:

As for Bran and Rickon, one's 7 and the other's a toddler; they're too young to be fostered

[Universal Sword Donor]

It should be, northmen have heavy cavalry and noble men-at-arms, these are guys that 1. have better things to do then spend hours keeping their weapons and armour clean, 2. need someone to help them put armour on.

A misconception on this forum is that only certain lords and knights would have squires, as many are never mentioned as having squires. This may be a misconception that GRRM shares in, but the fact is men who function as knights (whether they are "sers/sirs' or not) need someone to help them put on armour, pass them new lances and fetch their weapons, hold their prisoners, bear their banners and so forth. Northmen have no less need of squires than southerners, though presumably there is no formal transition from squire to warrior, someone is just accepted as a warrior in their own right after they have proved themselves.

We find out pretty early on that Brandon had Ethan Glover as a squire. Domeric Bolton was a squire/page.

[Hoosier427]

I have no problem with Ned not fostering his children out. First of all, the north is a large and very dangerous place. Lets just say that Ned decides to foster Rob at bear island. The iron born raid and kidnap his heir, thus giving them the bargaining chip in negotations later on. Also, when u foster a child with a family, you are giving them a hostage that if the shit hits the fan between the two houses, the one with the foster child would be in control. I know there is a fundamental difference between fostering a child and having a ward like Theon, but really it's not any different. I wouldn't want anybody using my children to blackmail me.

[Colonel Green]

I have no problem with Ned not fostering his children out. First of all, the north is a large and very dangerous place. Lets just say that Ned decides to foster Rob at bear island. The iron born raid and kidnap his heir, thus giving them the bargaining chip in negotations later on. Also, when u foster a child with a family, you are giving them a hostage that if the shit hits the fan between the two houses, the one with the foster child would be in control. I know there is a fundamental difference between fostering a child and having a ward like Theon, but really it's not any different. I wouldn't want anybody using my children to blackmail me.

Um, that's why you send them to foster with your close allies, of whom Ned has/believes he has many.

[Shadow Cat 75]

It is hard to say however if they where to be fostered I would go as follows. Since until recently it was common to have the children stay in the North I think the same will happen.

Robb/Jon to the Karstarks or Umbers they would likely accept Jon since even as a Snow it is likely that he would hold a high place of honor in Robb's court maybe even given some small amount of land and a true name in the form of a branch house.

Sansa-I would say White Harbor and the Manderly so that she could learn the ways of a Southern Court without actually going that far south. If not White Harbor then Riverrun to be with her Grandfather and mother side of the family.

Arya- now this is harder I think Nedd would want to send her to house Mormont since she would like it better there but Cat would like to send her to a more southern style court where she would be expected to be a lady.

Brann-when he got old enough would likely be sent to either the Karstarks or Umbers depending on which house got Robb, the other would have Brann.

Rickon- likely either the Glovers or Tallharts

[naseridrl]

I can kind of understand reason why Ned didn't have his kids fostered. What don't understand is why there weren't more kids from the banner houses in Winterfell. Why not Wylla Manderley to make friends with Sansa and maybe catch Robb's eye? Why not Alys Karstark? Why not Cley Cerwyn to squire/page considering the closeness? Why not his much older sister as a lady for Catelyn?