Bakker XXXIV: Waiting for Grimdark (update: it’s here!)

[lokisnow]

Perhaps he views the inverse fire as a cognitive virus that would corrupt his conditioning?

[Callan S.]

Why do we assume Moe wants to destroy the consult?

[Anatúrinbor]

Why do we assume Moe wants to destroy the consult?

My crackpot is that the passage about Kellhus walking on conditioned ground applies exactly to Moënghus, all his life he thinks that his decisions were his own (including his manipulation of Kellhus) when in fact he's just executing but one operation in the skein of another's Godlike calculation. A calculation that extends all the way back to the Apocalypse.

Another possibility is that Moënghus is some sort of God or an avatar for one and wants to destroy the Consult because they plan to shut the Outside, including himself, from the world.

But even if not, the passage about Kellhus walking on conditioned ground is very reminiscent of how the White-Luck Warrior is described, walking with only one way forward toward a future that has already been determined. I think Kellhus is Moënghus's WLW, and TTT is the mundane equivalent of the White-Luck, a godlike calculation.

So when Moe is like "I had not considered that the wilderness would break rather than enlighten you," it was more like "I had counted on it, arranged it, and now seen it come to pass. Time to chorae out of here." ??

Come on, Triskan, he didn't just Chorae out of there. He's still playing some role through Cnaiür/Meppa.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

But even if not, the passage about Kellhus walking on conditioned ground is very reminiscent of how the White-Luck Warrior is described, walking with only one way forward toward a future that has already been determined. I think Kellhus is Moënghus's WLW, and TTT is the mundane equivalent of the White-Luck, a godlike calculation.

Oooh, nice parallel drawn there. Does this also perhaps explain why the Gods cannot see the No-God, i.e. that as the Dunyain depend on knowledge of what comes before to determine what comes after, the Gods too are dependent on such causal knowledge in their divine calculations, whereas the No-God is not commensurable to such causal analysis as its causality is that of a loop where what comes after also determines what comes before; its power is to close the world to the Outside through such a causal loop, which disrupts the predetermined order of things established by the God.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Dunno about that Kellhus/ WLW comparison - others have explained this better than I have but I've read a breakdown of it something like this: Kellhus navigates a path by calculating the most probable cirumstance, the shortest path, that will allow him to reach his goals. Out of all the branching possibilities he chooses the most likely path, doing the the thing that will most likely lead to what he wants. Whereas for the WLW, whatever needs to happen happens. Whatever he's forseen comes to pass by just being there, his timeline is already written all at once. He doesn't make any choices - what come after determines what comes before.

[Anatúrinbor]

Did you miss the last two pages Larry? Kellhus simply thought he was making his own choices when in fact his path had been previously determined by Moe's calculation, as he realized in the end.

There are infinite paths through the tumble of events," Meppa explained to his sovereign. "The White-Luck, the idolaters believe, is that perfect line of action and happenstance that can see any outcome come to pass. The White-Luck Warrior is the man who walks that line.

For years he walked the innumerable paths of the Probability Trance, plotting future after future, searching for the thread of act and consequence that would save the world. For years he crafted his Thousandfold Thought.

TTT is WL's mundane equivalent (it's not identical to it) in the sense that it is as close as you'll get to a thread of act and consequence that will see any outcome come to pass, in this case it is "saving the world"--supposedly, while in the WLW's case it is killing Kellhus--supposedly. As Moënghus cannot have perfect knowledge of what comes before, he cannot produce a true mundane WLW (a Black-Luck Warrior?). It's just a parallel.

It's not only Kellhus, btw, Maithanet is described by Proyas in terms that are in even more reminiscent of TWLW,

His every movement, every pose, it seemed to Proyas, conveyed a sense of inevitability, as though the scripture of his acts had already been written.

Could not have described TWLW any better than this.

So to sum up, Kellhus, Maithanet, Cnaiür, the Cishaurim, and many others, were all Moe's White-Luck Warriors.

Oooh, nice parallel drawn there. Does this also perhaps explain why the Gods cannot see the No-God, i.e. that as the Dunyain depend on knowledge of what comes before to determine what comes after, the Gods too are dependent on such causal knowledge in their divine calculations, whereas the No-God is not commensurable to such causal analysis as its causality is that of a loop where what comes after also determines what comes before; its power is to close the world to the Outside through such a causal loop, which disrupts the predetermined order of things established by the God.

Crackpot, Moënghus is blind to the Gods the same way the Gods are blind to the No-God. He wasn't lying to Kellhus about not finding anything that contradicts the principle, he just has some sort of metaphysical blindness where he can only see the past and future through the Thousandfold Thought.

[Anatúrinbor]

dp.

[Anatúrinbor]

It appears that GDM#3 has been released.

http://grimdarkmagazine.com/products/grimdark-magazine-issue-3

It's also on Amazon.

[Madness]

One of unJon's questions got picked. As did one of bakkerfans' (mrganondorf over on SA). Huzzah.

[lokisnow]

My crackpot is that the passage about Kellhus walking on conditioned ground applies exactly to Moënghus, all his life he thinks that his decisions were his own (including his manipulation of Kellhus) when in fact he's just executing but one operation in the skein of another's Godlike calculation. A calculation that extends all the way back to the Apocalypse.

Another possibility is that Moënghus is some sort of God or an avatar for one and wants to destroy the Consult because they plan to shut the Outside, including himself, from the world.

But even if not, the passage about Kellhus walking on conditioned ground is very reminiscent of how the White-Luck Warrior is described, walking with only one way forward toward a future that has already been determined. I think Kellhus is Moënghus's WLW, and TTT is the mundane equivalent of the White-Luck, a godlike calculation.

Come on, Triskan, he didn't just Chorae out of there. He's still playing some role through Cnaiür/Meppa.

Love it. There's always a bigger fish.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

Love it. There's always a bigger fish.

Seswatha. He's clearly gonna turn out to be a bastard and most of the Sagas lies...

[lokisnow]

Seswatha. He's clearly gonna turn out to be a bastard and most of the Sagas lies...

My reading of the text when Esmenet reflects on Seswatha's role in the sagas implies that Seswatha is not a single person but perhaps a persona of many actors that are currently all organized under the same label "Seswatha."

As she points out, the figure commonly considered to be Seswatha happens to recur in every single tale, he is even known by different names in each tale but is still considered the same person.

it seems.... improbable... that one man would galavant across decades, countries, coalitions and factions to just manage to succeed in inserting himself into the dramatis personae of every major event leading to the apocalypse and the war. -- not to mention the nakedly disturbing question of how Seswatha had fore-knowledge of the details of the No God and an accurate determination of it's ETA decades before he or anyone else managed to enter Golgotterath...

crackpot: Seswatha=Ajokli?

[Wise Fool]

What's the connection between Seswatha and a Wathi doll? Is it merely that they are similar-ish sounding... or does it hint at something deeper?

[jurble]

I just read Knife of Many Hands pt. 2 and

What exactly happens? Because it's unclear to me.

[kuenjato]

Any interesting information from the interview? How does Knife of Many Hands compare to the other two Atrocity Tales?

Although I love the endless theorizing, I have to ask... if TUC does not feature any of this endless Moe speculation and other misc. layering (seriously, some of you need to write books and get them published, we need more of this kind of fantasy), will some of you be disappointed?

I remain in the Moe is Dead camp...

[Larry of the Lawn]

Did you miss the last two pages Larry? Kellhus simply thought he was making his own choices when in fact his path had been previously determined by Moe's calculation, as he realized in the end.

TTT is WL's mundane equivalent (it's not identical to it) in the sense that it is as close as you'll get to a thread of act and consequence that will see any outcome come to pass, in this case it is "saving the world"--supposedly, while in the WLW's case it is killing Kellhus--supposedly. As Moënghus cannot have perfect knowledge of what comes before, he cannot produce a true mundane WLW (a Black-Luck Warrior?). It's just a parallel.

It's not only Kellhus, btw, Maithanet is described by Proyas in terms that are in even more reminiscent of TWLW,

Could not have described TWLW any better than this.

So to sum up, Kellhus, Maithanet, Cnaiür, the Cishaurim, and many others, were all Moe's White-Luck Warriors.

Crackpot, Moënghus is blind to the Gods the same way the Gods are blind to the No-God. He wasn't lying to Kellhus about not finding anything that contradicts the principle, he just has some sort of metaphysical blindness where he can only see the past and future through the Thousandfold Thought.

It's cool, I'm just having a hard to reconciling this with a plausible end game for Moe; basically because of what Trisk mentioned.

Alright let's run with this a bit. Would it be safe to say that Moe is sending Kellhus the No-God voice during the Circumfixion then? At first Moe is clearly talking with Kellhus up there, Kel asks why Moe had to sacrifice Serwe. Then Kellhus sees the figure beneath the tree. Which then takes up the No-God's What do you see stuff. So Moe is just trying to trick Kellhus into thinking he hears voices from the Outside or whatever? And he succeeds, and that's what makes Kellhus a broken Dunyain? Or did Kellhus really break when they met Serwe, and Moe was just making sure by talking to Kellhus on the iron circle, or was Kellhus just imagining the Moe/No god stuff while up there?

And you're right, I doubt the next book will really answer any of these questions.

[Larry of the Lawn]

It appears that GDM#3 has been released.

http://grimdarkmagazine.com/products/grimdark-magazine-issue-3

It's also on Amazon.

That interview was really good. It took us from Shrek's swamp, to Aristotle and the stars (think Achamian and Cnauir thinking about the stars), to his self-promotional efforts and places beyond.

I hope when he listed all those authors and said they were 'mostly irrelevant' instead of 'all irrelevant' it was because of DeLillo.

I don't think I've ever anticipated the release of a book as much as I am jonesing for TUC right now.

[Sci-2]

One of unJon's questions got picked. As did one of bakkerfans' (mrganondorf over on SA). Huzzah.

Harumph. Dragons & Chorae is the only relevant question.

[Happy Ent]

I just read Knife of Many Hands pt. 2 and […]

The story is written in Bakker’s usual ambiguous style (which I understand is deliberate but I don’t like at all.)

Here’s what happens (after one read-through last night just before I fell asleep – may be completely wrong):

The story is about how the Scarlet Spires kill the King and Queen of High Ainon.

1. Wait for a WitlessProtagonist P to be invited to the queen’s chambers. (This happens regularly.)

2. Check if this P is sometimes possessed by a god. (This is extremely rare.)

3. Abduct P. Make sure that if P.state==normal he has no idea about what happened when P.state==possessed.

4. Ensure P.state==possessed by taunting. Cast a cant of compulsion on P. Throw him out.

5. P, after reverting to P.state==normal will now go to the queen.

6. All sentient trees in High Ainon uproot and take over the Eastern Three Seas.

7. The queen is not stupid and constantly fears attacks by the Spires. So P will be checked by one of the Few from the Collegiate. He sees no Mark. (Cute detail: P himself in this story is one of the Few. He did the Mark-checking himself in a copper mirror. This was for the reader’s benefit, of course.)

8. P gets invited to the queen for hanky-panky. The king, apparently, is there as well. Just watching. Hanky-panky commences, until P.state==possessed. Pandemonium ensues.

9. P escapes and reverts to P.state==normal.

This raises interesting metaphysical questions.

[Happy Ent]

Changed my mind about step 4:

P is not cant-of-compulsed. After all, this is the Spires. And doesn’t the story tell of spidery legs and chitin and scales? I claim P is ciphranged.