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Bakker XXXIV: Waiting for Grimdark (update: it’s here!)

Happy Ent

By Happy Ent,
in Literature

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Melphis Amekia Noble

Melphis Amekia

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I bought it on Amazon. Took a second. You can then read it the Kindle application on you computer or mobile device. (Or if you have a Kindle, on that.)

Not that I wouldn't love to buy it, I don't have the money for it.

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Anatúrinbor Council Member

Anatúrinbor

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It's cool, I'm just having a hard to reconciling this with a plausible end game for Moe; basically because of what Trisk mentioned.

TWLW parallel was a separate point, actually. But your comment got me thinking...

Would it be safe to say that Moe is sending Kellhus the No-God voice during the Circumfixion then? At first Moe is clearly talking with Kellhus up there, Kel asks why Moe had to sacrifice Serwe. Then Kellhus sees the figure beneath the tree. Which then takes up the No-God's What do you see stuff. So Moe is just trying to trick Kellhus into thinking he hears voices from the Outside or whatever? And he succeeds, and that's what makes Kellhus a broken Dunyain?

No, the dream and the voices could be genuine, and yet still be part of Moe's plan. Because, in case you didn't catch it, that's what Kellhus thought... I think. Kellhus obviously changed on the Circumfix, Moe claims that that change makes him a madman, or broken, if that's what you want to call it. Kellhus, however, did not see it that way, he saw himself as more enlightened. In fact, Kellhus thought that the change that happened to him is what Moe meant by 'soon you'll grasp the Thousandfold Thought'.

I think I see, father.... Yes, the Thousandfold Thought.

Or he thought that what happened to him on the Circumfix is a precursor to grasping tTT, either way it was part of Moe's plan for him. The fact that he later thinks that Moe planned everything that happened to him since leaving Ishual and until reaching Shimeh is only confirmation. (Confirmation that he thought Moe intended all of this.)

It wasn't until Kyudea that Moe told him that those voices are not part of the Thousandfold Thought. Kellhus initially assumed that his father is hearing the voices as well.

"The God," Kellhus said. "He doesnt speak to you?"

Scrutiny. Calculation.

"No."

"Curious..."

"This voice you hear," the old Dûnyain said, "is not part of the Thousandfold Thought."

"Yes," Kellhus murmured. "He speaks to me as well."

WHAT AM I?

"The No-God?" Moënghus asked. ... "Then you truly are mad."

The 'crackpottery' that was made on the last few pages, I think - the idea that Moe wanted a 'broken Dunyain' on purpose - is just saying two things:

1. What Kellhus assumed about Moe before meeting him is true.

2. Moenghus was lying to him in that final scene. (Even here Kellhus did not believe him entirely, btw.)

And if that is true, then it only follows that Moenghus did all of this for a reason, and not for shits and giggles. It makes little sense otherwise.

It's basically the idea that Moenghus is putting on a 'ruse' that Kellhus considers before killing stabbing him. If the accusations of madness are a ruse then Moe must have some end-game for doing all of this.

But note, Kellhus is 'broken' only from a Dunyain perspective (which we know is not entirely true), if Moenghus is lying to Kellhus, then it follows that Moe in truth sees Kellhus's 'breaking' the same way that Kellhus saw it, as him grasping something higher, but he refused to tell him that for whatever reason.

And, yes, Moenghus has an end-game, it's the most plausible way of explaining his final scene with Cnaiür. I don't even see it as a crackpot. To argue otherwise, to say that nothing of note happened in the Cnaiur x Moe scene - Moe just died accidentally and Cnaiur killed himself afterwards - is a huge crackpot, basically you're just ignoring the text in that case. And for the record Moenghus could have an end-game even if he 'died' in some fashion in TTT, like I said, he still plays a role through Cnaiür, whatever that is.

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Michael Seswatha Jordan Council Member

Michael Seswatha Jordan

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To expand on what @Anaturinbor just posted, it makes sense that Moe lives on through Cnauir based on that seen, as Meppa.

I say he was sent to me!the hawk-faced Padirajah cried laughing. I am the Solitary Gods gift to his people.And what does he say?the Second Negotiant asked, now genuinely curious.Meppa? He does not know who he is.

I've gave this quote before as a suggestion, that Meppa=Moe. But, it makes more sense if Meppa=Cnauir+Moe. What struck me as I was reading the last post was in TTT, Cnauir is always saying to himself something along the lines of, "I can't remember, what am I forgetting?". I know that what that was was the "Secret of War", but could it also be foreshadowing to the above quote? That with whatever went on between Moe and Cnauir (Moe's soul going into Cnauir body or just a mash up of the two), now Meppa doeant truly know who he is? Or is that just another of Moe's ploys so he will be left alone to continue his manipulations?

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unJon Council Member

unJon

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Changed my mind about step 4:

P is not cant-of-compulsed. After all, this is the Spires. And doesnt the story tell of spidery legs and chitin and scales? I claim P is ciphranged.

My read is the same as yours. It was pretty apparent on a second read and the imagery leading up to the climax was pretty explicit.
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Larry of the Lawn Council Member

Larry of the Lawn

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I did mean Happy Ent; I saw his comment about sentient trees and then when I reread the story this jumped out at me:

They would stand leaning out against the hemp ropes, row after row, forming a sleeve of dendritic gills, and it would seem the Pit was some kind of obscenity from the deepest sea, a cold encrustation about tissue hot and living, filtering whatever nourishment provided by his murderous deeds.

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lokisnow Council Member

lokisnow

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Serious question.

Is serwe divine before encountering kellhus?

Does her divinity rub off on him because he's favored by her?

Is the heart thing enabled by her divinity?

What if the "something outraged" was the divine presence that associates itself with serwe, just as gilgaol associates itself with cnaiur...

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Rhom Council Member

Rhom

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Serious question.

Is serwe divine before encountering kellhus?

Does her divinity rub off on him because he's favored by her?

Is the heart thing enabled by her divinity?

What if the "something outraged" was the divine presence that associates itself with serwe, just as gilgaol associates itself with cnaiur...

If what comes after can determine the before, could her later actions enable her earlier divinity?

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lokisnow Council Member

lokisnow

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Possible. I'm thinking simple though. Serwe was divine and readers haven't noticed it because of our biases and because the narrators are disinclined to notice for us.

Serwe is the Jesus not kellhus. Wence the resurrection?

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