Biggest show failures over Seasons 1-4

[The Reckoner]

The biggest failure, for me, is their handling of Baelish.

[WhitewolfStark]

Not-Jeyne Westerling.

What was the point of changing her story? Why did she need to be a foreigner instead from a noble house in the Westerlands?

This one is definitely for budgetary reasons. A foreigner who's left her homeland consciously (abandoning everything she had there behind her) has no one else to have to follow up on, no family or loose threads to tie up once she dies. Instead of having to deal with Jeyne post-Red Wedding, she's done when she's dead. And making her a foreigner means they don't have to cast her family.

It's the economical decision to cut any and all family she might have--but instead of being an orphan and the sole leader in charge of her house as they'd otherwise have to do in Westeros, they instead try and justify her being "all alone" by making her a foreigner with a family that can't appear because they're on another continent.

Also making her a Volantine noblewoman who grew up with slavery, but left because of it, was a nice complement to Daenerys' plot in that season when she overthrows the masters in Astapor.

[A Prince of Dorne]

Wow, I didn't realize how bad this show was until I read this thread. It must have no viewers and be a complete mess based on what I read here.

Book purists are an interesting subset of GOT fans....

The show isn't perfect, but wow it is mostly amazing. The only thing I wasn't a huge fan of was Dany in Qarth.... but even that wasn't that bad.

I mean, in fairness, this thread's subject is specifically about show failures ...what did you expect?

[Daske]

They're ironborn. They pay the iron price. The idea they would (a) not be able to kill or seriously wound a shirtless guy in silk pants is ludicrous to start with, that it is then compounded by ( B) all standing around while the shirtless guy unlocks the kennel, and © run away from the dogs and then worst of all (d) leave Theon alive, in a dog cage, knowing he's been castrated and tortured to the point of wanting to stay with his torturing instead of giving him a clean death is crazy.

But the thing is we have already seen that the Ironborn do not always fight to the death. At this point in the show they are already shown to be good at killing old men but surrendering when in trouble. They have no reason to lay down their lives at this point. I do agree that since they were retreating then killing Theon would have been more in character for them, but still it's her little brother.

[The Prince of Porne]

The two biggest failures in the show in my own opinion have to do with, not surprisingly, one of GRRM's most complex characters: Jaime Lannister.

The most glaring is, of course, the rape scene in the Sept of Baelor after Joffrey's death. It's unclear to me how this scene turned out so differently from the one that all involved believed they had filmed. Perhaps a part of it was filmed that showed Cersei eventually wanting what was happening, and then that part was cut in editing. It doesn't matter. The scene that was depicted in the final release was a rape. It's a tough scene even in the book, so I can believe they had difficulty making it a true adaptation, but the final product can only be described as a shocking rape scene that does undermine a lot of the redemption arc that Jaime had already undertaken.

What compounds the error of the Sept scene is how they handled Jaime's arc over the rest of season 4, but especially in "The Children." The clearly consensual sex they have in Jaime's quarters was very puzzling to me, given that Jaime's arc, and a major part of his redemption arc, is his rejection of Cersei to the point where by the end of ADWD he doesn't care if she lives or dies. To bring them together at the end of the season didn't sit right with me. But if I had to guess, it will be his freeing of Tyrion that will drive them apart, and eventually he will reach that point (by the end of this season, if we're still speculating).

The final error that I think is worth mentioning is the omission of the Tysha reveal in that same episode, also involving Jaime. It's a development that is critical for Tyrion's frame of mind in ADWD, and it isn't as if they show had omitted the Tysha backstory altogether. The scene where he tells Shae and Bronn about her in season one is one of Peter's greatest on the show thus far, and he even mentions Tysha again in Season 4 during one of his scenes with Jaime, and in that scene Jaime looks like he wants to say something to Tyrion, but doesn't. I understand the show expanded Shae's role to Tysha 2.0, but I found both Shae's betrayal of Tyrion and Tyrion's subsequent decision to visit Tywin after Jaime frees him to be forced without the Tysha stuff. It also hurts the show in that I felt like they cast an untalented actress as Shae. She just got demolished by Peter in most of their scenes together.

I could name numerous points of contention, but I think you pretty much hit on the two biggest failures in my opinion: bungling Jaime's redemption arc (how disheartening is it to see him still acting like Cersei's b**ch as of 5x02) and omitting the Tysha revelation, robbing Tyrion's final scenes in S4 of most of the emotional punch they should have had.

I'm sure I'd think the show was amazing if I'd never read the books, and it's still decent enough entertainment, but it will never be what it could have been if the showrunners/HBO had made better use of the excellent material they were handed -- which is a shame, IMO.

[The Prince of Porne]

To be fair that is something that could be rectified this season. There's not an awful lot of stuff they've omitted from him as far I can think. If they give him the "rue the day I raped your mother" line, or even that monologue with Theon about that that, he'll raise some eyebrows. There's time for that.

Something tells me we're not seeing Lady Dustin, but I'm really hoping someone (probably Littlefinger, or maybe Qyburn or Grey Worm or one of the Sand Snakes at this rate) gets to say "Roose has no feelings, you see...He does not love, he does not hate, he does not grieve. This is a game to him, mildly diverting. Some men hunt, some hawk, some tumble dice. Roose plays with men. You and me, these Freys, Lord Manderly, his plump new wife, even his bastard, we are but his playthings."

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

My thoughts on the biggest failures, why waste time on Beric Dondarrion and Thoros if you aren't going to cast Stoneheart. Why waste time on the Greyjoys if you aren't going to delve into their storyline. I don't like the fact that Jamie is being sent to Dorne either.

[Arthur Blackwood]

What about the scene where Bran reaches Bloodraven's cave? With those skeletons and the CoTF conjuring fireballs? Call me a book purist, but that was cringeworthy.

[Ghosts Lunch]

I can understand the need to adjust some things if they are going for 7 seasons instead of 10 so I'm not as critical as some others

That said they needed to use flashbacks and prophecy more to give visual context to backstory. Plotholes are developing as a result of the decision not to, nt to mention they haven't had a 7 season plan so people looking closely can see they set up certain arcs and then decide not to go with it next season so it seems odd, eg Yara with her big rescue mission and then Yunkai and Cleon the Butcher King

Breaking Bad and Walking Dead have used flashbacks quite effectively so unlike much of the fantasy stuff like Glass Candles and purple/red eyes and so forth this wouldn't be "weird" for a show that is making itself a predominantly Medieval Drama

Since it became quite mainstream popular it seems they've taken some of the Machievellian politics and mystery angles out of it, eg characters just blurting out they poisoned Jon Arryns wine and killed Joffrey and so forth. Plus there's less exploration of the scheming, eg Sam with the NW election most recently. Contrast that to season 1, and Ned investigating the book, Arya hearing Varys in the dungeons and so forth, season 2 with Tyrion outing Cerseis spy (Pycelle) etc

All things considered though they are doing a great job, people probably don't realise how campy and bad this potentially could have been, the SFX and production values are fantastic, the vast majority of the casting has been superb

[WSmith84]

Loras is a huge disappointment. How do you condense 3 characters into one and end up with someone with less personality than any of them? Now his sole character trait is that he is gay.

Streamlining: I understand the need for it, I do. And most of the time it's been fine, or hell it's improved things. Take Brienne; we don't have endless scenes of her wandering around the Riverlands. I'm a bit sad we won't get to see Randyll Tarly or Septon Meribald, but I'm happy to miss all the other stuff. The problem is that they can't seem to write the characters consistently when they streamline. Brienne has become some bullying idiot.

Lack of planning. Why include the BwB if they weren't going to include Stoneheart?

Inconsistency in their own stuff. Why have several names dropped off of Arya's list when those people are still alive?

Poor adaptions of in-book scenes. The fireball-throwing Child and the RPG skeletons? Really? Wouldn't the in-book scenes (minus Coldhands) have worked better and been cheaper?

They can't write military stuff for toffee. It doesn't need to be amazing, but Jesus. In S4 after Dany takes Meereen, Barristan claims that Dany could take KL with her 8000 Unsullied and 2000 Second Sons. Completely ignoring the Tyrell army and navy.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Loras is a huge disappointment. How do you condense 3 characters into one and end up with someone with less personality than any of them? Now his sole character trait is that he is gay.

Streamlining: I understand the need for it, I do. And most of the time it's been fine, or hell it's improved things. Take Brienne; we don't have endless scenes of her wandering around the Riverlands. I'm a bit sad we won't get to see Randyll Tarly or Septon Meribald, but I'm happy to miss all the other stuff. The problem is that they can't seem to write the characters consistently when they streamline. Brienne has become some bullying idiot.

Lack of planning. Why include the BwB if they weren't going to include Stoneheart?

Inconsistency in their own stuff. Why have several names dropped off of Arya's list when those people are still alive?

Poor adaptions of in-book scenes. The fireball-throwing Child and the RPG skeletons? Really? Wouldn't the in-book scenes (minus Coldhands) have worked better and been cheaper?

They can't write military stuff for toffee. It doesn't need to be amazing, but Jesus. In S4 after Dany takes Meereen, Barristan claims that Dany could take KL with her 8000 Unsullied and 2000 Second Sons. Completely ignoring the Tyrell army and navy.

I think the reason they went this way with Loras is because of the climate on homosexuality and religion in the modern world. I really do, and while that's clever and everything, it's not needed. I agree Loras is a homosexual sideshow instead of being a fierce warrior in the books who happens to take a D in the A from time to time.

[Lord Damian]

too much time on book 3 = seasons 3 and 4. Should have wrapped up half way through season 4 and the stuff we are seeing now could have been incorporated into the near end of last season with room to spare for a good ending. Because they wasted 2 seasons on one book, they are trying to compress 2 books into one season and cutting some very, very good as well as what we thought to be, important characters, ie, Wymand Manderly, Arianne Martell, Euron Greyjoy and Victarion Greyjoy.

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

The show has basically become author-approved fanfiction.. Given GRRM's opinion on fanfiction I find that hilarious.

I agree with most of the failures listed in thread.

[Aemon's counsel]

I think the reason they went this way with Loras is because of the climate on homosexuality and religion in the modern world. I really do, and while that's clever and everything, it's not needed. I agree Loras is a homosexual sideshow instead of being a fierce warrior in the books who happens to take a D in the A from time to time.

I definitely agree - assuming they are going with the 'religious persecution' thing with Loras then I'm really dreading it. This type of 'ripped from the headlines'-style storytelling really isn't a good fit for the show at all. No doubt gay people have been persecuted by religion throughout the ages, but it still feels clunky and anachronistic to me to have Loras be persecuted for being gay and for that to be the focus of the High Sparrow stuff.

And yea, the way they've handled Loras in general has been terrible. I'm all for seeing more gay characters on TV, but not if those characters are just going to have no other characteristics other than being gay. Loras should have been handled like Omar on the Wire - yea, he's gay, but there's a lot more to him than that. When other characters talk about Omar on the Wire they more often talk about how dangerous and crazy he is than about his sexuality, and Loras' reputation as a formidable, arrogant young knight should precede him in a similar way. But no, all anyone seems to know about Loras in the show is the fact that he likes men.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

I definitely agree - assuming they are going with the 'religious persecution' thing with Loras then I'm really dreading it. This type of 'ripped from the headlines'-style storytelling really isn't a good fit for the show at all. No doubt gay people have been persecuted by religion throughout the ages, but it still feels clunky and anachronistic to me to have Loras be persecuted for being gay and for that to be the focus of the High Sparrow stuff.

And yea, the way they've handled Loras in general has been terrible. I'm all for seeing more gay characters on TV, but not if those characters are just going to have no other characteristics other than being gay. Loras should have been handled like Omar on the Wire - yea, he's gay, but there's a lot more to him than that. When other characters talk about Omar on the Wire they more often talk about how dangerous and crazy he is than about his sexuality, and Loras' reputation as a formidable, arrogant young knight should precede him in a similar way. But no, all anyone seems to know about Loras in the show is the fact that he likes men.

It's pretty sad isn't it...Omar is a great comparison. Him being gay was a part of his character but it definitely wasn't what you thought when you heard his name. You think shotgun and ripping off dealers. Loras is seen as a gay, whiney, spoiled brat. I think they missed out on some good television with him and Jamie getting closer, and the fact that he is in fact s fierce warrior. They didn't even put him in the kingsguard in the shows, he was completely dismissed as a character even worse than if he'd have been cut all together.

[AlpenglowMemories]

The Mountain/Viper duel.

It was hyped as this big, huge, fantastic scene with the stakes dangling in the balance. What we actually got was...well, yeah. Overall, the scene struck me as being a series of edits of lasting mere moments, without any tone or establishing any sense of rising tension. The main issue of their being 100 cuts per minute simply made the action hard to see, and removed us from the moment. Pascal was good, as usual, but even he couldn't bring something when everything else was lacking. The choreography, when you could actually see it, wasn't particularly brilliant: the Mountain made half-hearted jabs at Oberyn, and one of my least favourite moments was when he collapsed as Oberyn thrusts his spear into him. He collapses before Oberyn is anywhere near him! Another bizarre staging choice was having Oberyn pulls these Jackie Chan like flips (which, with the editing in the scene, we never get to view fluidly) and having Ser Gregor swing an enormous sword around one-handedly.

But I think the major problem is that Graves failed to give the action itself enough weight, or failed to see the weight in the action as it is. He frames and cuts it in a way that becomes very fragmented: we don't see these characters fighting, reacting, struggling. We're simply given millisecond-long "hints" at those elements. I also found it a bit odd how whenever something happened - Oberyn got a hit, or was pushed back - he used a series of reaction shots from the main characters. Was that to build stakes? The trouble is that the intensity of the duel doesn't come from the staging or the power of the performances, it comes from the rapidity of the cuts, which results in a scene that dances from perspective to perspective too hastily, never allowing us a chance to really see or study the movements on screen. In my opinion, of course.

Another big problem with the fourth season, in my mind, was pushing the Wall siege back to episode nine. Understandably, they wanted a "big" episode to show off how far they've advanced in terms of production values, but the season really suffered from this choice. I enjoyed the episode a lot, though I think this should have happened mid-season, and begin allowing the politics at the Wall to grow, instead of cramming them into the first few episodes of season five.

The skeletons as well were another choice that didn't work. Tonally, I found them very inconsistent with the other fantasy choices on the show, and that's without even getting into the peculiar action beats of that scene - Hodor takes one down by poking it in the eyes. How does that work? It doesn't have any eyes?

[The hairy bear]

Most of the problems of the show arise, I think, from the fact that they want to do Tyrion and Cersei good relatable characters.

• Tyrion would look bad if a lowborn whore fooled him? We'll change Shae into a clever woman who really falls in love with him. Forget about Tysha, Tyrion's desperate need for afection, and his whole arch.
  
• Killing women is a bad think to do? Let's make Shae try to make a move for a knive and then poor Tyrion will just be acting in self defense.
  
• We want to make Cersei more sympatetic? Let's invent that at the begining she was in love with Robert and they even had a son who died in infancy that we'll forget in due time.
  
• It's not a nice thing to order the murder of children? Let's take it from Cersei and give it to our resident psyco Joffrey.
  
• A sane mother wouldn't make love besides her dead son's body? Let's make Jaime force her. But not really. But she has to say no. So perhaps it's rape. Or not.
  
• No one would run away for our charming Cersei? Fuck Jaime's arch and make him her puppet.
  

[Tolsimir]

- Everything regarding Jaime after season 3.

- What they are doing with Sansa.

- The whitewashing of Cersei and Tyrion.

These three are the biggest IMO.