Biggest show failures over Seasons 1-4

[Colonel Green]

- Littlefinger the careless (revealing his plans early; depending on Sansa because the show inexplicably left Marillion out of the room)

That's not "inexplicable". They left a Marillion-substitute out of the room because they wanted Sansa to save him.

[thequicksilverthings]

Turning one of the most eerie, mysterious, and magical scenes in the entire book series (Bran arriving at Bloodraven's tree) into a scene ripped straight out of a cheesy 80's fairy tale flick.

Thank-you.

[sj4iy]

Tyrion's wife is raped and discarded by multiple soldiers and Tyrion is told she was only a whore after his money when she actually loved him the one thing he is searching for. Not very vague.

Oh yes, because knowing that she wasn't a whore changed the fact that his father had his wife brutally raped in front of Tyrion many years ago and he never felt it necessary to kill his father for it in the time since.

It's a stupid reason that wasn't necessary to make Tyrion feel the need to kill his father...all it ends up doing is muddying the waters between him and Jaime, and even THAT doesn't seem to be necessary in the long run.

[Miodrag]

Oh yes, because knowing that she wasn't a whore changed the fact that his father had his wife brutally raped in front of Tyrion many years ago and he never felt it necessary to kill his father for it in the time since.

How is it possible that you don't get what makes all the difference between the fake story Tyrion was told and the truth Jaime revealed to him?! I mean, you did post some rather strange things in the past, but this seems like a whole new level.

It's a stupid reason

Jaime knows it's a big deal. Tywin always knew it's a big deal. Tyrion definitely sees it as the biggest deal of his life. Pretty much every reader ever that laid eyes on ASOS recognized it's a big deal. But if you say it's stupid, then it has to be, right?

that wasn't necessary to make Tyrion feel the need to kill his father...

Care to explain how can it work without Tysha? You know, the show version. Why don't you try describe what goes on in Tyrion's mind when he decides to visit his father. I don't think it's possible to come up with anything reasonable as a mind-process of TV Tyrion that resulted in his sudden wish to confront Tywin, but, as evidenced at the beginning of this post of mine, it's obvious you're capable of proving something I thought impossible possible.

all it ends up doing is muddying the waters between him and Jaime, and even THAT doesn't seem to be necessary in the long run.

Why is it not "necessary in the long run"? Because those two geniuses left it out of the show? What can possibly be proven by that, other than D&D's epic incompetence of course?

[OrcusOfUndeath]

I'd like to add Thenns to this list. I don't know where the showrunners think they are going with this, but they are shown as the most savage of Wildlings in the show, whereas they are the single most civilized of the Wildlings (on the average)

[magic713]

What I didn't like about the Robb/Talisa storyline was first that it took away the irony of book Robb's marriage. In the book, Robb didn't marry Jeyne Westerling because he loved her, but because he slept with her. Wanting to protect her honor, he married her, leading to is death. The irony being that like his father, Robb died doing the honorable thing.

I didn't like that Robb married Talisa shortly after realizing that Catelyn released Jaime. His position was weakened when that he lost a valued hostage, so he made it more weak by losing an alliance with a powerful house.

I still don't understand why Talisa was even be at the Red Wedding. I get that from a production-standpoint they wanted to get rid of the character, but from a story-standpoint, it made no sense why Robb would bring her. Assuming that there wasn't a massecre in planning and the Freys were actually open to reforming an alliance with the North, her presence would only offend them and risk breaking the planned alliance.

[Beric175]

@OrcusOfUndeath: it's so we can see the difference between the different wildlings. Tormund kills only in the belief that it will help them get away from the Others, whereas I'm sure there are other wildlings who see this as a big opportunity to come down hard on the defenseless people south of the Wall. A fair amount of sacking towns and burning down villages has to happen for the threat of the wildlings to be adequtely conveyed. The Thenns are recognizable wildlings to the readers, the other tribes' names I'm sad to say didn't stick in my memory all that much so I guess they thought that people would remember the Thenns so they decided to use them to get that point across. Freedom is nice but you have to be responsible and respect other people's freedom, which extends to their person and some wildlings definitely don't get that notion.

[Beric175]

As for the Tyrion scene I think to anyone looking at it from the outside both his actions in the book and the show would be hard to understand...so Tysha being revealed as not being a whore suddenly makes difference? So she was worth killing your father for when she wasn't a whore but you didn't lift a finger while you believed she was a whore? Great decision there Tyrion. Boy you sure know how to make us root for you you selfish bastard.

Thing is, Tysha is not a character on the show, hence not a character the audience cares enough about for Tyrion to murder his father. Shae on the other hand has been on the show and the audience got to know her directly, and hence by default care more about her than they do about Tyrion's wife that was mentioned twice over 4 seasons (the second time not even by name). The difference it made is that I cared more about Shae on the show because, gues what, Tyrion on the show does not appear to think about Tysha at all and there is no inner monologue so I'm glad they took one of the two or three soap opera twists out of the equation. It is not entirely unproblematic because Tyrion appears to be lacking any kind of immediate motivation to kill his father...except the 4 seasons that preceded this moment and which have shown us that Tywin hates and abuses Tyrion verbally on a regular basis, humiliates him and tries to get rid of him in season 4. I guess those things are pretty significant to the Tyrion on the show and I could buy him using his last opportunity in KL to kill his father over that, especially once he sees Shae in Tywin's bed. It worked for me and not for some of you, so what?

I knew the scene would be different from the moment the Jaime/Tyrion scene went in the exact opposite direction than the book scene...maybe because they don't see each other again in the books maybe? Or maybe because both of them only THINK about what went down between them in the book but don't actually ct on it. This is great stuff....when you have inner monologue at your disposal but the show does not have that luxury.

[Kyrion]

How is it possible that you don't get what makes all the difference between the fake story Tyrion was told and the truth Jaime revealed to him?! I mean, you did post some rather strange things in the past, but this seems like a whole new level.

Jaime knows it's a big deal. Tywin always knew it's a big deal. Tyrion definitely sees it as the biggest deal of his life. Pretty much every reader ever that laid eyes on ASOS recognized it's a big deal. But if you say it's stupid, then it has to be, right?

Care to explain how can it work without Tysha? You know, the show version. Why don't you try describe what goes on in Tyrion's mind when he decides to visit his father. I don't think it's possible to come up with anything reasonable as a mind-process of TV Tyrion that resulted in his sudden wish to confront Tywin, but, as evidenced at the beginning of this post of mine, it's obvious you're capable of proving something I thought impossible possible.

Why is it not "necessary in the long run"? Because those two geniuses left it out of the show? What can possibly be proven by that, other than D&D's epic incompetence of course?

Thank you, Miodrag. Some posters are really, really.....well like sj4iy. Defend D&D to the death. Even if nonsensical, defend D&D is the priority. Show defense is apart of their identity now. If they like it, it HAS to be good and everyone else only dislikes it cause its changes from the books. In reality, the reason we hate some of the changes is because they make NO SENSE, not that it was a change. Some changes the show did well, like say Shireen teaching Davos to read and throwing in some history while were at it. While most are completely hazardous to the plot, character motivations, and history of the characters themselves.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

It's very different believing that someone truly loves you despite everyone else judging you and then to find it was all a deception to make you get laid. Rather than it being real love if she was just using Tyrion then so be it, we all know how it feels to be used or tricked yet still he thought fondly of her. But then to find that the woman you loved was sincere only to be raped and lost to you is horribly traumatic. How can you not see the difference?

[TheWeepingKnight]

The Thenns would utterly ridiculous however. They were all evil, alright, though the execution was horrendous to me. Every single scene of the Magnar to reinforce how eeevvvvvuuul he was in such a laughable manner with that terrible 'he's eeevvvvvvuuuul!' music.

[magic713]

The Thenns would utterly ridiculous however. They were all evil, alright, though the execution was horrendous to me. Every single scene of the Magnar to reinforce how eeevvvvvuuul he was in such a laughable manner with that terrible 'he's eeevvvvvvuuuul!' music.

Clearly Thenns were only brought in so that the audience could smpathize less towards the wildlings when the watch fights to keep them on the other side of the Wall, despite the fact that the wildlings are fighting for their lives to escape the White Walkers.

[TheWeepingKnight]

Clearly Thenns were only brought in so that the audience could smpathize less towards the wildlings when the watch fights to keep them on the other side of the Wall, despite the fact that the wildlings are fighting for their lives to escape the White Walkers.

And now, based on the Season 5 material and Jon's scene with Mance, they are now being made sympathetic. Another silly flip flop. Before it was all scowls, threatening Jon every second, eating people, tormenting children in a laughable scene. Only when Stannis arrives do they activate sympathy mode.

[Dragon in the North]

Thank you, Miodrag. Some posters are really, really.....well like sj4iy. Defend D&D to the death. Even if nonsensical, defend D&D is the priority. Show defense is apart of their identity now. If they like it, it HAS to be good and everyone else only dislikes it cause its changes from the books. In reality, the reason we hate some of the changes is because they make NO SENSE, not that it was a change. Some changes the show did well, like say Shireen teaching Davos to read and throwing in some history while were at it. While most are completely hazardous to the plot, character motivations, and history of the characters themselves.

There are no D&D defenders or apologists on this forum. Posters such as sj4iy and I who actually enjoy watching the show know that the showrunners are not perfect and have made mistakes and we have criticized some of the decisions they've made accordingly. However, we don't judge the show based on how close it is to the books. We judge it based on how good it is compared to other tv shows. Contrarily, I've been seeing more and more book purists critiquing the show based on what's not included rather than what is. I know that most book readers really enjoyed Tyrion and Tywin's final scene because the Tysha revelation made it much more dramatic, but I don't believe the reveal was absolutely necessary to make the scene work. Tyrion killing Tywin without the Tysha reveal makes perfect sense seeing as Tywin had just sentenced him to die for a crime he didn't commit. I do believe the showrunners could have made Tysha work and that Peter Dinklage would have been able to pull it off, but I still enjoyed the scene without her and praise Dinklage and Dance's performance.

[Miodrag]

Thank you, Miodrag. Some posters are really, really.....well like sj4iy. Defend D&D to the death. Even if nonsensical, defend D&D is the priority. Show defense is apart of their identity now. If they like it, it HAS to be good and everyone else only dislikes it cause its changes from the books. In reality, the reason we hate some of the changes is because they make NO SENSE, not that it was a change. Some changes the show did well, like say Shireen teaching Davos to read and throwing in some history while were at it. While most are completely hazardous to the plot, character motivations, and history of the characters themselves.

This "Show is more important than the books" mentality is quite a unique phenomenon, and it appeared at the very beginning, some four years ago. Few days after the pilot premiered, HBO announced the renewal of the show for its second season. On WiC site, which I followed regularly back then, it sparked an understandable euphoria in the comments, but the joy was accompanied by a number of suggestions on what ACOK parts should be cut out or condensed or altered in order for the show to save money or attract more viewers or both. The numbers for the pilot weren't exactly low, but they were nowhere near todays ratings, and posters were disturbed by the possibility the show could be canceled because of insufficient ratings, although such a danger at that stage was never so much as hinted at by anyone related to the show. The posters kept bringing one radical idea after another, to my utter disbelief: just days ago, the same people were basically threatening to torch HBO if literally anything is changed, but now, all of a sudden, they pulled 180 and started proposing the most drastic changes.

It turned out I wasn't alone in thinking like that, as evidenced by this comment:

http://winteriscoming.net/2011/04/19/hbo-renews-game-of-thrones-for-second-season/#comment-96364

In case someone can't read it, because of spoiler marks or whatever, here's the entire comment:

LOL, if this site from 6 months ago could see what people are suggesting now for Season 2.

Merging Qhorin and Benjen?!?!?! Removing the Greyjoy’s? Not allowing Jaime to be captured?!?! This site from 6 months ago would have murdered you, and now in both this topic and the “GOT didn’t get enough viewers” post we have people ready to completly deface the series and turn it into something unrecognizeable in order to get more seasons/ the characters we love more screen time.

I am so glad NONE of you are running the show. Have the showrunners not already shown us with this first episode that they are more than capable of turning the book we love into a show we love? You all worry about “potential audience this” and “viewers that” but you forget how it is BECAUSE the book didn’t follow what every other show did is the reason we all fell in love with it in the first place. And now you all want to change it into a rehash of shit we’ve already seen. No thanks.

I know Jaime is a big character, and him being locked in a dungeon would take him out of the limelight for a while, but that is what makes the show so great. It isn’t about X character being so awesome that they have to be doing shit all the time. In ASOIAF bad shit happens to cool people. So what if Jaime rots away, thats why the book is awesome, no one is exempt from anything, need I remind you of Ned’s beheading?!

As far as 10 episodes goes for season 2, I think that D&D will make it work. Will things be condensed? Yes, of course they will, they were for season 1, we’ve seen that already in the first episode, but that doesn’t mean we need to get the machete out and start cutting out YOUR least favorite parts of the book. If that was the case the show might as well have focused only on Tyrion, Jon Snow, and Arya, everyone else could have died in a fire for all we cared, and in 3 episodes we could realize that all the 3 main characters do is be witty, kick ass, and we can revel in the boringness of them overcoming great odds with no real peril in their lives.

Oh wait, I already have seen that, and its called Harry Potter.

D&D and their show probably disappointed this commenter later on, but his description of the said mentality among fans is spot on. If forced to explain the mentality, I'd say it's partly a testament to the somewhat disturbing dominance on-screen spectacles have over more substantiative contents in the culture of today. In a broader sense, it also reflects the power of the mainstream. Before the show, ASOIAF was popular of course, even extremely popular for a book series of that size and maturity, but it wasn't mainstream. The show changed that. And, once they found themselves in the mainstream, some fans obviously don't want to risk the position and return to the earlier levels of popularity and recognizability. Looks like the show has awaken the conformism in them.

[Miodrag]

There are no D&D defenders or apologists on this forum.

Oh, my sweet summer child.

Posters such as sj4iy and I who actually enjoy watching the show know that the showrunners are not perfect and have made mistakes and we have criticized some of the decisions they've made accordingly. However, we don't judge the show based on how close it is to the books. We judge it based on how good it is compared to other tv shows. Contrarily, I've been seeing more and more book purists critiquing the show based on what's not included rather than what is.

Compared to the shows usually regarded as the high class television (The Wire, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Deadwood, Mad Men, even Galactica and Rome), GoT is really not a match. It's not even close. And the biggest reason is the writing. But here's the craziest part: GoT equals, and sometimes dwarfs, listed shows, only in those rare instances it remained faithful to the source material. That suggests that, had D&D copy-pasted as much source material as money and time allowed, they'd make the best show ever. So, when we purists keep mentioning what was cut out, we're effectively trying to prove how easily GoT could've been way, way better.

I know that most book readers really enjoyed Tyrion and Tywin's final scene because the Tysha revelation made it much more dramatic, but I don't believe the reveal was absolutely necessary to make the scene work. Tyrion killing Tywin without the Tysha reveal makes perfect sense seeing as Tywin had just sentenced him to die for a crime he didn't commit. I do believe the showrunners could have made Tysha work and that Peter Dinklage would have been able to pull it off, but I still enjoyed the scene without her and praise Dinklage and Dance's performance.

It's not about what is "much more dramatic", but about what makes sense. And Tyrion's sudden desire to abandon the escape and put his life in risk doesn't make any sense in the show. It is a highly irrational decision, therefore it has to be explained not on the rational level, but on emotional one. However, TV Tyrion is evidently not emotionally disturbed to the point of acting irrationally. When Jaime leaves him, TV Tyrion has all the reasons in the world to continue to Varys, and not a single reason (rational or irrational) to put everything at risk by visiting Tywin. Book Tyrion obviously doesn't care any more at that point, and he has a very strong reason for losing his mind. TV Tyrion doesn't have a single reason to not care, especially after thanking Jaime for saving his life.

[Dragon in the North]

Oh, my sweet summer child.

Maybe you and I have different definitions of "D&D apologist", but to me it means someone who believe D&D can do no wrong and worship the ground they walk on, in which case I stand by what I said. To you, it might mean someone who simply enjoys watching the show. If so, then I guess I am a "D&D apologist."

Compared to the shows usually regarded as the high class television (The Wire, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Deadwood, Mad Men, even Galactica and Rome), GoT is really not a match. It's not even close. And the biggest reason is the writing. But here's the craziest part: GoT equals, and sometimes dwarfs, listed shows, only in those rare instances it remained faithful to the source material. That suggests that, had D&D copy-pasted as much source material as money and time allowed, they'd make the best show ever. So, when we purists keep mentioning what was cut out, we're effectively trying to prove how easily GoT could've been way, way better.

I would also add The Shield to your list, my personal favorite show, but that's beside the point. The whole concept of "the best show ever" is completely subjective. There are plenty of fans and critics alike who believe GOT falls into that category, so who's to say they're wrong?

It's not about what is "much more dramatic", but about what makes sense. And Tyrion's sudden desire to abandon the escape and put his life in risk doesn't make any sense in the show. It is a highly irrational decision, therefore it has to be explained not on the rational level, but on emotional one. However, TV Tyrion is evidently not emotionally disturbed to the point of acting irrationally. When Jaime leaves him, TV Tyrion has all the reasons in the world to continue to Varys, and not a single reason (rational or irrational) to put everything at risk by visiting Tywin. Book Tyrion obviously doesn't care any more at that point, and he has a very strong reason for losing his mind. TV Tyrion doesn't have a single reason to not care, especially after thanking Jaime for saving his life.

He was about to leave Westeros and most likely never see his family again. He wasn't going to let his father have the last word and finally get what he wanted, which is to have Tyrion out of his sight. None of the Unsullied I've seen felt like it was out of character for Tyrion to murder his father after all the shit his father had given him his life. If Tyrion's decision to pay his father a final visit was so illogical, why is it only book purists who are complaining about it?

[Kyrion]

He was about to leave Westeros and most likely never see his family again. He wasn't going to let his father have the last word and finally get what he wanted, which is to have Tyrion out of his sight. None of the Unsullied I've seen felt like it was out of character for Tyrion to murder his father after all the shit his father had given him his life. If Tyrion's decision to pay his father a final visit was so illogical, why is it only book purists who are complaining about it?

Thats pretty weak reasoning.

And it isnt some random people in your town that matter, its the entire audience. Critics, awards, everything. Bad writing means less recognition by the elites which does matter in Hollywood and definitely to HBO. This show would have more awards and recognition if D&D actually took the time and wrote a story that made sense.

Miodrag is right. It makes NO sense for Tyrion to risk everything and go see his father in the show. He very well could have ran into guards and he would have went right back to jail, Tyrion knows this as an intelligent man. Going back to see him was only something that he did out of anger and despair. It makes sense for an intelligent man to forget his wits in a time of emotional pain, but Tyrion going back in the show just doesnt add up.

Its not like it needed the Tysha scene, but it needed something to make sense so that Tyrion confronted Tywin but had nothing; thus its less realistic, thus wasnt as good as D&D thought it was going to be(Best episode ever according to them......no, no it was not D&D sorry. Had potential to be the best if you did it right, but you did not. You failed.)

[Miodrag]

Maybe you and I have different definitions of "D&D apologist", but to me it means someone who believe D&D can do no wrong and worship the ground they walk on, in which case I stand by what I said. To you, it might mean someone who simply enjoys watching the show. If so, then I guess I am a "D&D apologist."

That the best you can do? Nothing more innovative than a textbook case of strawman argument?

I would also add The Shield to your list, my personal favorite show, but that's beside the point. The whole concept of "the best show ever" is completely subjective. There are plenty of fans and critics alike who believe GOT falls into that category, so who's to say they're wrong?

Are you saying there is no way to objectively determine which show is better, GoT or The Wire? Or, GoT vs. The Sopranos?

He was about to leave Westeros and most likely never see his family again. He wasn't going to let his father have the last word and finally get what he wanted, which is to have Tyrion out of his sight. None of the Unsullied I've seen felt like it was out of character for Tyrion to murder his father after all the shit his father had given him his life. If Tyrion's decision to pay his father a final visit was so illogical, why is it only book purists who are complaining about it?

Hey, I have no idea why are people in general so compliant toward overrated stuff. Not just GoT, but also other shows and movies and books and whatnot. Some people are simply pleased too easily, I guess. Otherwise, there wouldn't be such thing as overrated. For example, were the unsullied complaining about Jaime's nonsensical murder of his cousin Alton? They haven't, and yet, it was a completely ridiculous scene. Were the unsullied complaining about the dreadful lines spoken by Talisa? Or about last season's showdown at Craster's and all its stupidity? Yara's failed attack on Dreadfort? Arya's quasi-philosophical lines a la "nothing is nothing"? And so on. And the answer is always: no, looks like they didn't mind it at all. They're probably not paying too much attention. GoT is a weekly entertainment to them, not something they necessary think about afterwards. I'm like that with certain movies and shows that manage to entertain me without invoking any deeper investment on my part.

As for your explanation of the TV scene, sorry, it doesn't work. Not really. How was Tyrion to have the last word? How did he plan to outsmart/defeat/whatever Tywin? Let's leave Shae out of the equation for now, because, after all, Tyrion didn't have a reason to expect her there: what did he want to gain by the confrontation with Tywin?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Clearly Thenns were only brought in so that the audience could smpathize less towards the wildlings when the watch fights to keep them on the other side of the Wall, despite the fact that the wildlings are fighting for their lives to escape the White Walkers.

Exactly. That's quite a failure in this adaptation. There is not just mere "villains" or "enemies" (except few cases). Jorah tells Dany exactly that: every war has its share of good and bad people. This is the "essence" of ASOIAF, and not getting that is not getting the books :dunno: