Biggest show failures over Seasons 1-4

[Mark Antony]

Tyrion's wife is raped and discarded by multiple soldiers and Tyrion is told she was only a whore after his money when she actually loved him the one thing he is searching for. Not very vague.

the Showrunners even went to the bother of including the story in season 1 and then promptly forgot about it

[dsug]

the Showrunners even went to the bother of including the story in season 1 and then promptly forgot about it

If they brought Her back up in s4 I guarantee you 99.9% of the unsullied would be sitting around going "who the fuck is Trisha?"

[Mark Antony]

If they brought Her back up in s4 I guarantee you 99.9% of the unsullied would be sitting around going "who the fuck is Trisha?"

Insulting to show only watchers intelligence tbh and also that's what the previously on segment is for

[shadow282]

A lot of people here seem confused about how tv works. Tysha is mentioned repeatedly in Tyrions thoughts throughout the books. We're can see how much she means to him, there's a developed relationship there in his thoughts. Show Tysha was mentioned once in a 3 minute scene 3 freaking years ago. Almost nobody watching the show would remember her so why the hell would they bother bringing her up? The name would mean nothing to almost everybody, and Tyrion already had plenty of reason to kill his father.

It's the same thing with all the prophecies. When they're not going to get any payoff for like 5 years bringing them up is pointless. Unless you keep mentioning it nobody watching the show would remember it and if they did a "previously on" segment before the show it wouldn't mean anything because there's no investment in it so people watching wouldn't give a shit about it.

[Miodrag]

Is this for real? His own father who shat on him his whole life, condemned him to death, and then slept with the love of his life? What more reason do you want?!

No no no no...none of that is reason enough to want to kill someone...you need a vague backstory about a former lover from when you were a teenager to REALLY make you want to kill someone.

Are you even aware of all the levels the TV scene doesn't work on? For example, why didn't TV Jaime escort Tyrion all the way to Varys? In the book, there's a damn good reason for that: Jaime wants to confess something no third party, Varys included, should be a witness to. That's why only two of them are present at their farewell. In the show, however, Jaime does nothing of the sort, so why does he leave Tyrion alone at the most convenient moment? Perhaps because D&D, I don't know, didn't meet a convenient moment they disliked?

But let's go to the essence. Of course it is possible that an abused child, after suffering a life-long harassment, suddenly snaps without some particular reason and takes steps against the abusive parent. So, in theory, TV Tyrion's decision to put the escape on hold until he confronts Tywin is not necessarily inexplicable. We can always imagine some more or less believable thoughts that went through Tyrion's head at that particular moment and led him to Tywin's chamber. In another words, we can fill in the blanks ourselves. However, that's the difference between good writing and a bad one. In a competent storytelling, a consumer doesn't have to fill in the blanks at points of such importance. A good storyteller does his own job and doesn't need us, the consumers, to do it for him. Leaving the space for different interpretations is one thing, but leaving blanks as big as in the case of TV Tyrion's undoubtedly irrational decision is simply bad writing.

And not to mention that everything that happens afterwards kinda proves TV Tyrion actually had no reason to visit his dad. It is pretty obvious he snaps only after seeing Shae in Tywin's bad. More precise, he looses it only after he kills her. So, are we to believe all he initially wanted is to have a chat with Tywin?! Is that the reason he jeopardized the escape his brother so carefully prepared for him? Based on everything that happened before or after, there is simply not a believable enough reason for TV Tyrion to abandon his escape and endanger his life, and even compromise his brother who just saved him.

Theoretically, of course that Tysha-like incidents aren't necessary for a patricide, but writing that relies so heavily on theoretical possibilities consumers have to explore themselves can't be good or competent. And in this case it's even worse than that, because the rest of the scene negates even theoretical possibilities that would otherwise explain Tyrion's irrational decision. And on top of that, we have the source material, in which everything worked. I mean, D&D actually made effort for Tywin's death to not work. Had they done nothing but copy-paste book version, everything would be just fine. How's that for incompetence!

[Mark Antony]

A lot of people here seem confused about how tv works. .

:rolleyes:

[Miodrag]

A lot of people here seem confused about how tv works. Tysha is mentioned repeatedly in Tyrions thoughts throughout the books. We're can see how much she means to him, there's a developed relationship there in his thoughts. Show Tysha was mentioned once in a 3 minute scene 3 freaking years ago. Almost nobody watching the show would remember her so why the hell would they bother bringing her up? The name would mean nothing to almost everybody, and Tyrion already had plenty of reason to kill his father.

Since you seem pretty confident in your TV expertise, let me get something straight: Are you saying that a dialogue in a TV show can never address issues or subjects or persons that are more or less abstract in terms of the immediate circumstances?

It's the same thing with all the prophecies. When they're not going to get any payoff for like 5 years bringing them up is pointless. Unless you keep mentioning it nobody watching the show would remember it and if they did a "previously on" segment before the show it wouldn't mean anything because there's no investment in it so people watching wouldn't give a shit about it.

So, what is stopping the authors of this show, or any other show, from mentioning abstract yet important concepts and ideas from time to time, in order to keep them relatively alive and fresh in viewers' minds? Again, are you saying a TV show can never do that, or something else in order to address concepts that are opposite to instant?

[Dragon in the North]

Are you even aware of all the levels the TV scene doesn't work on? For example, why didn't TV Jaime escort Tyrion all the way to Varys? In the book, there's a damn good reason for that: Jaime wants to confess something no third party, Varys included, should be a witness to. That's why only two of them are present at their farewell. In the show, however, Jaime does nothing of the sort, so why does he leave Tyrion alone at the most convenient moment? Perhaps because D&D, I don't know, didn't meet a convenient moment they disliked?

Jaime escorted Tyrion to the stairs that would lead him to Varys. I think that was far enough.

But let's go to the essence. Of course it is possible that an abused child, after suffering a life-long harassment, suddenly snaps without some particular reason and takes steps against the abusive parent. So, in theory, TV Tyrion's decision to put the escape on hold until he confronts Tywin is not necessarily inexplicable. We can always imagine some more or less believable thoughts that went through Tyrion's head at that particular moment and led him to Tywin's chamber. In another words, we can fill in the blanks ourselves. However, that's the difference between good writing and a bad one. In a competent storytelling, a consumer doesn't have to fill in the blanks at points of such importance. A good storyteller does his own job and doesn't need us, the consumers, to do it for him. Leaving the space for different interpretations is one thing, but leaving blanks as big as in the case of TV Tyrion's undoubtedly irrational decision is simply bad writing.

And not to mention that everything that happens afterwards kinda proves TV Tyrion actually had no reason to visit his dad. It is pretty obvious he snaps only after seeing Shae in Tywin's bad. More precise, he looses it only after he kills her. So, are we to believe all he initially wanted is to have a chat with Tywin?! Is that the reason he jeopardized the escape his brother so carefully prepared for him? Based on everything that happened before or after, there is simply not a believable enough reason for TV Tyrion to abandon his escape and endanger his life, and even compromise his brother who just saved him.

Theoretically, of course that Tysha-like incidents aren't necessary for a patricide, but writing that relies so heavily on theoretical possibilities consumers have to explore themselves can't be good or competent. And in this case it's even worse than that, because the rest of the scene negates even theoretical possibilities that would otherwise explain Tyrion's irrational decision. And on top of that, we have the source material, in which everything worked. I mean, D&D actually made effort for Tywin's death to not work. Had they done nothing but copy-paste book version, everything would be just fine. How's that for incompetence!

His first words were, "You wanted me dead my entire life. You knew that I didn't kill Joffrey, but you wanted me dead anyway." It's safe to say that Tyrion explains his motives loud and clear and that he was planning on killing his father before he discovered Shae in his bed. To be clear, I liked the scene better in the books, but I don't understand the claim of some book readers that this scene doesn't make sense and lacks reason.

[Miodrag]

Jaime escorted Tyrion to the stairs that would lead him to Varys. I think that was far enough.

And he turned around at that exact point... why exactly? But never mind, it doesn't have to be a big deal.

His first words were, "You wanted me dead my entire life. You knew that I didn't kill Joffrey, but you wanted me dead anyway." It's safe to say that Tyrion explains his motives loud and clear and that he was planning on killing his father before he discovered Shae in his bed. To be clear, I liked the scene better in the books, but I don't understand the claim of some book readers that this scene doesn't make sense and lacks reason.

His emotional state you refer to is vastly different from the emotional state he seems to be in when he was entering the chamber. Watch the scene again, and you'll clearly see that while entering the chamber Tyrion is obviously not a threat to anyone inside the chamber. He becomes violent only after Shae tries to stab him. What he says afterwards, after the nervous meltdown he suffered, can't explain his decisions from before. Meaning, yeah, the TV scene doesn't make sense and does lack reason, even with the weak attempt at covering that you refer to.

[shadow282]

Since you seem pretty confident in your TV expertise, let me get something straight: Are you saying that a dialogue in a TV show can never address issues or subjects or persons that are more or less abstract in terms of the immediate circumstances?

So, what is stopping the authors of this show, or any other show, from mentioning abstract yet important concepts and ideas from time to time, in order to keep them relatively alive and fresh in viewers' minds? Again, are you saying a TV show can never do that, or something else in order to address concepts that are opposite to instant?

A) Nope, that's not even a little bit what I said

B) That's not the correct way to use abstract. Tysha is a person. She's not an abstract construct.

C) It was a 3 minute, complete non-emphasized scene 3 YEARS AGO. Can you name ANY tv show that has brought up a character in one incredibly short scene three years ago, then expected viewers to remember the character, let alone have ANY emotional attachment to the character? Using Shae makes significantly more sense, especially since she'd already taken on most of Tysha anyway

Nothing. That's the effective way to use prophecies and crap like that. But since they're CLEARLY not interesting in doing that with multiple prophecies, especially since they'd essentially be just repeating useless information for 6 seasons before it had ANY payoff, taking time away from advancing the actual plot, whining about it seems rather pointless, don't you think?

[Dragon in the North]

His emotional state you refer to is vastly different from the emotional state he seems to be in when he was entering the chamber. Watch the scene again, and you'll clearly see that while entering the chamber Tyrion is obviously not a threat to anyone inside the chamber. He becomes violent only after Shae tries to stab him. What he says afterwards, after the nervous meltdown he suffered, can't explain his decisions from before. Meaning, yeah, the TV scene doesn't make sense and does lack reason, even with the weak attempt at covering that you refer to.

But isn't that how it's like in the books? Tyrion enters Tywin's bedchambers unarmed with no plan. In both scenes, I believe that his motives are fueled by emotion, rather than logic.

[Miodrag]

A) Nope, that's not even a little bit what I said

B) That's not the correct way to use abstract. Tysha is a person. She's not an abstract construct.

C) It was a 3 minute, complete non-emphasized scene 3 YEARS AGO. Can you name ANY tv show that has brought up a character in one incredibly short scene three years ago, then expected viewers to remember the character, let alone have ANY emotional attachment to the character? Using Shae makes significantly more sense, especially since she'd already taken on most of Tysha anyway

Sorry, but in effect that is exactly what you've said, and what you keep on saying: that a character like Tysha (unseen, and only told about once or twice years ago) has to be dropped, since she can't be used for dramatic purposes because the audience won't remember her or won't recognize any emotional importance she can carry. Essentially, you're ignoring everything a dialogue can accomplish when written competently, and not to mention other film/TV techniques like flashbacks. If D&D didn't manage to think of something, and you can't think of something, it doesn't mean it's impossible. There were numerous ways Tysha could've been brought up in the build-up for the climax of Tyrion's Season 4 arc, especially because, you know, the scripts for the entire season are written ahead of the shooting, so D&D could easily plan in advance. And even without previous build-up, Tyrion's emotions for Tysha could've been properly evoked with some smart dialogue and some powerful acting. Nothing unheard or unseen of in TV history.

Yeah, for your information, there were TV shows before GoT. And some of them did the very thing you say is impossible. Two examples, just from the top of my head. 1) The Sopranos, Season 5, episode 10, in the last scene Tony provokes an ugly fight with his sister by insulting her over her estranged son who was previously only mentioned in Season 2 and was never actually seen on screen. 2) The Wire, Season 5, the driver of Senator Davis is brought back in the story, even though he was entirely absent after Season 1, in which he had a very small role to begin with - of course, he wasn't just mentioned, but was actually on-screen, though only briefly, however, considering how big the cast of The Wire was, it's almost the same as and certainly comparable with the Tysha case.

Nothing. That's the effective way to use prophecies and crap like that. But since they're CLEARLY not interesting in doing that with multiple prophecies, especially since they'd essentially be just repeating useless information for 6 seasons before it had ANY payoff, taking time away from advancing the actual plot, whining about it seems rather pointless, don't you think?

Who was whining? Don't you think it's the other way around: that show-enthusiasts keep whining about any critique of the show? By the way, I'm not crazy about prophecies either, I was just answering your remark that they're best left out.

[dsug]

Insulting to show only watchers intelligence tbh and also that's what the previously on segment is for

I'm not insulting them at all. I don't expect anyone to remember some scene on a show from five years ago. And I'm basically a show watcher only as well. I've read bits of AFFC and ADWD, so that's the only reason I know anything about season 5.

If I heard about Tysha in season 5, I probably would have to google it to remember who she is.

[shadow282]

Sorry, but in effect that is exactly what you've said, and what you keep on saying: that a character like Tysha (unseen, and only told about once or twice years ago) has to be dropped, since she can't be used for dramatic purposes because the audience won't remember her or won't recognize any emotional importance she can carry. Essentially, you're ignoring everything a dialogue can accomplish when written competently, and not to mention other film/TV techniques like flashbacks. If D&D didn't manage to think of something, and you can't think of something, it doesn't mean it's impossible. There were numerous ways Tysha could've been brought up in the build-up for the climax of Tyrion's Season 4 arc, especially because, you know, the scripts for the entire season are written ahead of the shooting, so D&D could easily plan in advance. And even before previous build-up, Tyrion's emotions for Tysha could've been properly evoked with some smart dialogue and some powerful acting. Nothing unheard or unseen of in TV history.

Yeah, for your information, there were TV shows before GoT. And some of them did the very thing you say is impossible. Two examples, just from the top of my head. 1) The Sopranos, Season 5, episode 10, in the last scene Tony provokes an ugly fight with his sister by insulting her over her estranged son who was previously only mentioned in Season 2 and was never actually seen on screen. 2) The Wire, Season 5, the driver of Senator Davis is brought back in the story, even though he was entirely absent after Season 1, in which he had a very small role to begin with - of course, he wasn't just mentioned, but was actually on-screen, though only briefly, however, considering how big the cast of The Wire was, it's almost the same as and certainly comparable with the Tysha case.

Who was whining? Don't you think it's the other way around: that show-enthusiasts keep whining about any critique of the show? By the way, I'm not crazy about prophecies either, I was just answering your remark that they're best left out.

But they didn't use flashbacks. They haven't mentioned her since season 1. I'm not saying it was completely impossible, I'm saying the choices they made up to that point made mentioning Tysha pointless. If Tyrion had mentioned her more than once 3 years ago, then fine. But he didn't. So at that point, there was no reason to add her in.

Sorry but both of those are wrong. The son was mentioned twice in season 2, again in season 3, again in season 4, and then that fight you mentioned in season 5. Which makes it nothing like Tysha. And like you said, The driver was in pretty much every episode in season one. Just because he had a small part in them doesn't make those multiple appearences the same as Tysha, who again, had a very small mention once as opposed to all season. So, again, not even remotely the same. Like I said, are there any examples of another tv show doing this?

I've never seen anyone say the show is the most amazing thing ever and that everything in it is completely perfect and there's absolutely no faults in it. I have seen people here say everything about the show is awful and everything they've tried to do is substandard and they've destroyed the books, So not the other way around.

[Miodrag]

But they didn't use flashbacks. They haven't mentioned her since season 1. I'm not saying it was completely impossible, I'm saying the choices they made up to that point made mentioning Tysha pointless. If Tyrion had mentioned her more than once 3 years ago, then fine. But he didn't. So at that point, there was no reason to add her in.

Well, in Season 5 they're using flashbacks all of a sudden. Perhaps they could've use them before? Also, for Season 4 they could write some dialogue that addresses Tysha. Just remember that the entire season is scripted simultaneously. They had eight episodes (discounting Episode 9 for obvious reasons) in which they could bring Tysha up. That should be more than enough for competent writers.

And yes, I obviously understand some of their decisions influence some of their later decisions. However, it doesn't make their decision any less wrong, especially if we consider they did have the source material and knew where the story's heading. They could've build anything up. They decided not to build up the Tysha moment. That's a wrong decision.

Sorry but both of those are wrong. The son was mentioned twice in season 2, again in season 3, again in season 4, and then that fight you mentioned in season 5. Which makes it nothing like Tysha. And like you said, The driver was in pretty much every episode in season one. Just because he had a small part in them doesn't make those multiple appearences the same as Tysha, who again, had a very small mention once as opposed to all season. So, again, not even remotely the same. Like I said, are there any examples of another tv show doing this?

And Tysha was mentioned in Season 3, when Tywin discussed marriage arrangements with Tyrion and Cersei. But that's not the point, really. It really makes no difference if a character is mentioned once, or twice, or three times, or four times, during the course of three years. What I'm talking about is the way The Sopranos writers made that character important for the scene in question, even though the character was on a Tysha level as familiarity is concerned. Prior to that scene, I'm positive vast majority of watchers wouldn't know if Janice Soprano has a son or a daughter, and some significant part probably wouldn't remember she even has a child. But, the way the scene was written, anyone could understand what's going on.

As for The Wire, it's an even bolder move, because the driver is really not someone the viewers ever had the reason to think of during the previous three seasons. When he popped up, I bet he was a mystery for a large part of the audience. But, as far as I can remember, they didn't even bother explaining too much who he actually is. I'm not saying it's a good example, just that TV writers sometimes do even bolder things than what was expected of D&D in this situation.

If The Sopranos or The Wire writers were hypothetically handling this Tysha situation, they'd never leave her out, and especially not because "the viewers would be confused".

I've never seen anyone say the show is the most amazing thing ever and that everything in it is completely perfect and there's absolutely no faults in it. I have seen people here say everything about the show is awful and everything they've tried to do is substandard and they've destroyed the books, So not the other way around.

Well, truth be told, the books really are the source material, so the situation you're describing is hardly surprising. But, what does that have to do with whining? I mean, why dismiss any criticism as whining? What if the criticism of the show is actually solid and logical and reasonable?

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

It was brought up multiple times and maybe could have been discussed while Tyrion is locked up only for Jaime to finally reveal the deception idk I'm just thinking out loud. Honestly yes maybe people would have been confused but most are anyways regardless so it's better to provide good story telling and doing the brothers arc justice instead of saying well the audience is too slow to catch that reference. Even my unsullied friend wanted to know what happen to Tyrion before the episode happened and I spoiled it for him with the Tysha reveal which I briefly explained and he loved it.

[Guess who's back]

I've never seen anyone say the show is the most amazing thing ever and that everything in it is completely perfect and there's absolutely no faults in it. I have seen people here say everything about the show is awful and everything they've tried to do is substandard and they've destroyed the books, So not the other way around.

Never seen anyone reasonably claiming that any show/book is completely flawless. As for people in here saying the show is dog shit, they are obvious book purists that shouldn't watch the show in first place.

[A Prince of Dorne]

- Jon being fairly dumb

- Jon/Quorin/Ygritte changes

- Littlefinger the careless (revealing his plans early; depending on Sansa because the show inexplicably left Marillion out of the room)

- Not ending S4E9 with Stannis...instead the lame ending of Jon walking out of the tunnel

- too much Sam + Gilly

- turning Jeyne Westerling into Talisa the pointless

- Tyrion's talk with Jaime in the cell, and then with his father in the privy...removal of Tysha

Overall they do a nice job, but IMO season 1 was by far the best, and that was with the smallest budget....that also happens to be the season that most closely followed the book. Coincidence?

[sati]

- Jon being fairly dumb

- Jon/Quorin/Ygritte changes

- Littlefinger the careless (revealing his plans early; depending on Sansa because the show inexplicably left Marillion out of the room)

- Not ending S4E9 with Stannis...instead the lame ending of Jon walking out of the tunnel

- too much Sam + Gilly

- turning Jeyne Westerling into Talisa the pointless

- Tyrion's talk with Jaime in the cell, and then with his father in the privy...removal of Tysha

Overall they do a nice job, but IMO season 1 was by far the best, and that was with the smallest budget....that also happens to be the season that most closely followed the book. Coincidence?

Exactly. Season 1 will always be my favorite, not because they didn't change my there and I'm obsessed they should follow the books, but other than that ridiculous scene with two women making out in LF's brothel it was all very well structured and didn't have so many questionable detours and scenes that just wasted time

[clawson24]

Turning one of the most eerie, mysterious, and magical scenes in the entire book series (Bran arriving at Bloodraven's tree) into a scene ripped straight out of a cheesy 80's fairy tale flick.