How did Elia not recognize her own son?

[markg171]

Those are assumptions. Gregor used more than one punch to kill Oberyn. But that's besides the point..

Apparently you find it very odd Gregor would go for his objective (Aegon) first, and for Elia only second...

Well when this topic always comes up, I go back to what I call "the Lily Potter Situation".

Now in the Harry Potter novels, Voldemort wanted to rule the wizarding and muggle worlds. But while he was trying to take over, a prophecy was made saying that a certain child would be born that could defeat him. Upon hearing this prophecy (or at least the first half of it), Voldemort set out to kill this child before the child could grow up to kill him. Voldemort believed that Harry Potter was the child, so he set to kill him. Upon getting to the Potter residence, Voldemort killed Harry's father. He then made his way up the stairs to Harry's nursery, where he found Harry Potter and his mother Lily Potter. Knowing that Voldemort was there for Harry, Lily tried to fight Voldemort off, despite being a vastly inferior witch. Voldemort easily killed her and then turned his attention to Harry. I'm sure you know the rest, but Voldemort could not kill Harry Potter because his mother had sacrificed herself for him.

What the hell does this have to do with Elia and Aegon? Well in both situations we have an unstoppable killing force entering a nursery where a mother and her child are, with the goal of killing the infant. In Elia and Aegon's case though, we learn that the baby seemingly was a fake and wasn't actually Aegon. This is where the difference in the two stories becomes key.

With Elia and "Aegon", Elia outlives "Aegon" with no textual hint that she ever tried to protect "Aegon" and stop Gregor from accomplishing his mission of killing "Aegon". In Lily and Harry's case however, Lily tries to fight off Voldemort and is killed trying to defend her son from the man who wants to kill him. We have two seemingly identical situations, except for the fact that in one case the child seemingly wasn't the son of the mother in the nursery, and the time of the death of the mothers.

So whenever I wonder about whether Aegon is real or not, I simply think "What would Lily Potter have done?". And the answer is that Lily Potter would have tried to stop Gregor had that been Harry, and would have died before Gregor could lay a hand on Harry. So why didn't Elia, unless the child wasn't Aegon?

[Ser Yolo Swaggins]

It's not shocking at all that Gregor would spend 2 seconds ripping his objective, an infant, from a sickly and weak womans arms to throw against a wall and then moved on to Elia. Elia wouldn't have been able to do a thing to stop him. And I'm sure she tried. Gregor's objective, given to him by the only man he listens to and most likely fears, was to kill the children. Elia is an afterthought.

Also, Lily Potter was a witch with magic and could use her body to shield Harry from Voldemort's magic spells, which is what she did. Elia is not magic and the 7.5 foot monster that is Gregor was not running around killing people with a Wand.

The two situations are not comparable at all.

[Narea]

IIRC, Lily didn't do much fighting just a lot of pleading in than instance...I have no doubt that had LV possessed strength of the Mountain, he could have just pushed her aside. As he did not, he killed her.

[Dorian Martell]

Folks sure do love making assumptions about the mental and emotional state of a princess who is trapped, sick and abandoned by her husband.

[markg171]

It's not shocking at all that Gregor would spend 2 seconds ripping his objective, an infant, from a sickly and weak womans arms to throw against a wall and then moved on to Elia. Elia wouldn't have been able to do a thing to stop him. And I'm sure she tried. Gregor's objective, given to him by the only man he listens to and most likely fears, was to kill the children. Elia is an afterthought.

Also, Lily Potter was a witch with magic and could use her body to shield Harry from Voldemort's magic spells, which is what she did. Elia is not magic and the 7.5 foot monster that is Gregor was not running around killing people with a Wand.

The two situations are not comparable at all.

Saying Avada Kadavra takes about as much time as throwing 1 punch, which we know Gregor is capable of killing a seasoned warrior with, so he could definitely kill a frail women without a single thought.

Also, the idea that Aegon was in Elia's arms comes solely from Daenerys, who was not even born yet, and has spent her entirely life on a different continent. All she has heard are stories told to her by Viserys, who also wasn't there

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.

The idea that Aegon was in Elia's arms comes solely from someone who has no idea what she's talking about.

IIRC, Lily didn't do much fighting just a lot of pleading in than instance...I have no doubt that had LV possessed strength of the Mountain, he could have just pushed her aside. As he did not, he killed her.

Why would Voldemort need to be as strong as the Mountain to push Lily aside, when he can just spend less than 2 seconds saying a spell that would make her do whatever he wanted?

[Ser Creighton]

Folks sure do love making assumptions about the mental and emotional state of a princess who is trapped, sick and abandoned by her husband.

Rhaegar is clearly not winning any husband or father of the year awards, I think that is safe to say. Whaat ever he was doing he wasn't doing it with his wife and kids. Got a wife two kids, Dads a nut, moms abused and my little brother sure could use some guidance. Well time to go, for ummm the good of the realm I need to run off with the new young wild girl, goodness it's for the fate of man I am going to have to have sex with her, it's the only way t o save the world and I love her. Shit you're pregnant? Well back to KL.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@Markg171

The situations are only identical up to a point. In both cases, a man entered the room, containing a mother and a child, and the objective was to kill that child.

The differences start there. Lily could attack from a distance, had she had the opportunity. I can’t recall that she did. She might have, but she wasn't described as frail and sickly, and was able to attack from a distance.. Elia was frail and sickly, had been all her life, and could not attack from a distance.

Standing in front of the crib containing baby Harry is not fighting. Voldemort cursed her to get her out of his way.

According to Dany, Elia had been holding Aegon when Gregor came in to do what he did.

Princess Elia of Dorne pleading formercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast, and murdered before her eyes.

And that’s the only source of who was where in the room. So, Gregor had to take Aegon from Elia. Do you truly think that Elia just gave the child up? Not trying to stop him?

Look, I’m all for the child having been killed having been the pisswater prince, with Aegon still being alive and in relative safety, but you are forgetting one rather vital point. Assuming the child in the room was indeed a fake, Elia might have been standing there with a child other than her own, with her own son safely hidden away, to be transported out of the city, but that doesn’t mean that the life of the child she had in front of her meant nothing to her. The life of that child, meant the life of Aegon, even if Aegon didn’t die. Would the pisswater prince survive the Sack, the Lannisters, and Robert, Aegon would be able to spend his life safely and in sight of people, should for some reason anyone be capable of convincing Robert not to kill the babe. Should the pisswater prince die, Aegon would never have a chance for a normal life.. And indeed he didn’t, as he spend his life being trained, hiding away from the world on a boat, with a fake name, and is now, at 18, still unprepared for the world he faces, despite all the training he has been given.

Voldemort striking Lily with a curse to reach Harry, is the same as Gregor ripping Aegon from Elia’s chest, pushing her aside as he goes. You get the mother out of the way. That doesn’t have to be done by killing her.

Mothers can try to protect their children without dying before their child does. Or did Catelyn not try to protect Robb, when he died before her? Was what she did not fighting for his life?

So you see, the situations of Elia and Lily are not 100% identical.. Yet you make them out to be.

[Failed to De-anon]

Someone please correct me if wrong, but, wasn't it mentioned somewhere (and it could be fanon, but, eh, it's a bit late for me to scour the books or the ssm and am being too lazy tbh) that Elia "fought like a tigress" against Clegane? Even if she did or did not, I doubt such an attempt would have been successful given her lack of permanent excellent health and the crazy as heck situation she found herself in.

Back on topic though, assuming YG is Aegon "the real deal", Elia would have had to been on it. Assuming the same, as far as the Rhaenys situation, it could have been that Varys said something to convince her that he had made similar arrangements for Rhaenys to be smuggled out or found her a place to hide (and lbr, thinking the room of a dead man in the middle of a fortified keep seemingly being a somewhat decent place for someone to hide isn't too much of a stretch, I think). It doesn't have to be true of course, but, just thought I'd put that out there.

Even if the baby was a decoy, Elia, who cooed at Tyrion, doesn't seem the type to hand over babies at men who show murderous intent simply because they aren't hers. If she had to sell the idea that this was the "real Aegon", the possibility she wouldn't do something like that would increase.

[Anythingatall]

Well when this topic always comes up, I go back to what I call "the Lily Potter Situation".

You know there are tonnes of real life examples of mothers having their kids killed before their eyes? Also there are lots of examples in ASOIAF, did all those Astapor slaves have their babies switched?

Comparing one fictional example with another is fairly pointless. Lily dying for Harry is the key plot point of that entire series, it needed to happen because the plot demanded it. That was the primary motivation.

[Anythingatall]

Mothers can try to protect their children without dying before their child does. Or did Catelyn not try to protect Robb, when he died before her? Was what she did not fighting for his life?

I forgot about Cat. Maybe Rob was switched? I was going to make a sarcastic comment about how she wasn't there when Bran and Rickon allegedly died but then I remembered that people do actually think she is a bad Mother for this.

Apparently real Mothers must be hysterical and irrational when their children are in danger. Otherwise they just don't cut it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Someone please correct me if wrong, but, wasn't it mentioned somewhere (and it could be fanon, but, eh, it's a bit late for me to scour the books or the ssm and am being too lazy tbh) that Elia "fought like a tigress" against Clegane?

That is a sentence from someone's fanfiction, which has somehow made its way into the fandom. I know because after searching for a long, long time a year ago, the only results showed up in a fanfiction on google. Nothing in the books, SSM's, or interviews with Martin. If he once said it, no one has written it down.

[Lyanna Stark]

Back on topic though, assuming YG is Aegon "the real deal", Elia would have had to been on it.

Please just kill this already. Aegon is false and Illyrio's son. This has been debated to death. Stop flogging the dead horse already.

[Oafkeeper]

Elia neededn't be in on it. Aegon is in another room in the tower, Elia is out of the room, Varys does a swap via a secret passage, Gregor busts in and smashes the baby.

Please just kill this already. Aegon is false and Illyrio's son. This has been debated to death. Stop flogging the dead horse already.

Dude, I also think Aegon is a fake but it is hardly canon. Don't just dismiss it because you have a pet theory of your own.

For example, I think the idea he is Illyrio's son is just as much bullshit as the idea he is really Aegon but I'm not 100% sure I'm right.

[Dorian Martell]

Remember folks, Elia had nothing. Her husband spends the better part of a year away banging the woman he publicly scorned her with. Her father in law held her hostage to ensure the loyalty of her family and their army. Her mother in law left to be safe. After Her husband died the writing was on the wall. She and her daughter might be spared but her son was as good as hamburger. So when the foreign superspy came around and said, the guy who was supposed to help us is sacking the city and his troops are ready to assault the castle, his plan for a last minute baby swap was probably quite appealing. Hopefully her son would survive long enough to be reunited with her after she and her daughter are ransomed back to her brother in sunspear. So it is quite plausible and possible. If it did actually happen of course. And it's not like we have seen other royal baby swaps in the books or anything

[Suzanna Stormborn]

There's nothing in the texts saying that Elia tried to protect Aegon during the Sack. The fact that she also died AFTER Aegon, shows that she didn't put up much of a fight if she really was trying to protect him.

Well if a mother and son are in the same room as he is being killed, I dont need specific text to tell me that she was trying to save him. That is a natural assumption.

Nope. It doesn't show that AT ALL. That's just your opinion. Let me get this staright, in your opinion Elia had to actually die in order to even qualify as putting up "much of a fight"? Against Gregor Clegane? I simply disagree with you on this. I think it could be just as likely that Elia did try everything she could to save baby Aegon but, since it was the Mountain she was going up against, it wasn't enough. In fact, there were precious few in the Seven Kingdoms who would have been able to protect that baby from the Mountain and, of course, that's why Tywin sent him.

yes exactly

Possible scenario: Elia attacks Gregor, but is violently pushed aside by him. He grabs the babe, smashes him against the wall, and next turns his attention on her.

This is how I alwways saw it, he would have been fully armored is 7 Ft tall, weighs what? 500 lbs, while tiny frail and sickly Elia maybe weighed 100 lbs, her 'trying' against him would be like a mouse 'trying' against a Lion. it would take him no effort at all to hold her down and kill Aegon at the same itme.

Princess Elia of Dorne pleading formercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast, and murdered before her eyes.

^^^ This

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I have this theory, and it might be crazy but, what if, just think for a second, what if swap never happened?

That is crazy! Who would ever believed that characters would lie like that? :eek: I never thought about it but you might be correct!

[Justin Amey]

Please just kill this already. Aegon is false and Illyrio's son. This has been debated to death. Stop flogging the dead horse already.

I consider at this point that Aegon being Illyrio's son is Crackpot.

[baraka.mabula]

For all I know, Gregor didn't lie. I don't think he did. That was the truth. The theory that makes sense to me is this Aegon being Illyrio's son by a female Blackfyre.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I consider at this point that Aegon being Illyrio's son is Crackpot.

Well it's not crackpot. If you check out this website thoroughly you will see that 90% of the long time posters all believe fAegon is a Blackfyre/Illyrio's son.

At this point the tide has turned and believing he is real is crackpot.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well it's not crackpot. If you check out this website thoroughly you will see that 90% of the long time posters all believe fAegon is a Blackfyre/Illyrio's son.

At this point the tide has turned and believing he is real is crackpot.

It's not that high, I think... There have been polls, and I don't know how many people voted, but the outcome was about 50 % - 50 %... It just seems that the people believing he's fake are more vocal about it..