Lee-Sensei Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Lol.... Touche.But I stand by my point.I also disagree about the Frey children. Their non-Frey relatives would probably take them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 By that logic, killing the Targ kids was no different than killing adult soldiers. Hey. I'm not opposed to letting them go. I just see that sending them off to fend for themselves in the world isn't some great kindness. It's still a death sentence, it just keeps your hands and conscious clean. By all means pardon them then send them off in the middle of winter alone with no food. Whatever. I'm not emotionally invested in them dying. The Targ situation is similar but a little different, they weren't hated by everyone, they had family who would have taken them in. Their deaths weren't about the crime, it was about the politics. I see this as two different things. I respect it if people don't distinguish though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Hey. I'm not opposed to letting them go. I just see that sending them off to fend for themselves in the world isn't some great kindness. It's still a death sentence, it just keeps your hands and conscious clean. By all means pardon them then send them off in the middle of winter alone with no food. Whatever. I'm not emotionally invested in them dying. The Targ situation is similar but a little different, they weren't hated by everyone, they had family who would have taken them in. Their deaths weren't about the crime, it was about the politics. I see this as two different things. I respect it if people don't distinguish though. 1) The Freys do have family that would take them in. 2) The Targs were wiped out because of Aerys and Rhaegars crimes. 3) The Freys aren't hated by everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I don't remember asking for you to do anything for me.And of course I know the difference. But I'm also mature and compassionate enough to know no life is worth more than any other. Mature and compassionate people don't advocate collective punishments, let alone child murder. Ned Stark understood that; you clearly don't. Just because they were soldiers doesn't mean their dying was more okay than some Frey woman at the twins. In a modern court they would all be convicted of murder or conspiracy, or accessory to murder. Actually, we're dealing with military law here. Killing civilians is the most basic of war crimes, and has always been recognised as such. The Red Wedding was itself a war crime, but not on the scale of killing civilians. They all knew what was going to happen, did nothing, so are legally responsible. No, they aren't. They have neither the mens rea (required mental element) nor the actus reus (actually committing the killings). Yes women, Maesters and all. As for the kids? What do you suppose, send them wander off, that's a death sentence itself. Nobody is going to take them in. What ever you decide to do things aren't looking good for them. Brilliant logic that. "We'll kill all the adults, innocent or not.""Oh wait, there's some kids too.""We killed all the adults, so there's no-one to look after them. Let's kill them too." You're justifying killing innocent children because, having killed innocent adults, you have decided there is nowhere for them to go. The fact that you created this situation by killing innocent adults seems to have escaped you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 How many deserve it? Keep going until we run out of crust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 All of them, every one of their banner men, everybody who knew about, participated in it, or profited from it. Friends of friends and anybody who owes them money. The North remembers. Are you.... Keyser Soze? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 All of them, every one of their banner men, everybody who knew about, participated in it, or profited from it. Friends of friends and anybody who owes them money. The North remembers.Lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 See, I like Pod. The sweet child that is Pod in books and the sexual tyrannosaur that we have in the show. And, while it's sad and unfair what LS is doing, for her, Pod is not a child. He's a Lannister. That's all she knows: he helped them fight against her side. She doesn't know his story, nor she knows whether he's in fact the kind and loyal kid we met. She doesn't read the books. So, there is no way she -or anyone- would ever know exactly which Frey participated and which one didn't. I don't consider Merret Frey a bad guy, just an idiot. But he did participate anyway, for whatever reasons. I'm sure a lot of Frey soldiers were actually good people who only followed orders. As I'm sure many Northerners that died that day probably also pillaged and raped women. That's the thing with war, no one can't tell you if you deserve to die or not. Your allegiance, even if it's forced, is what can save you or condemn you. Being a Frey nowadays is a dangerous thing in Westeros, whether you're good or bad, young or old, because the highest ranks of the Freys have caused the situation. So, sadly, the "Freys" are going to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 The question isn't "how many Freys are going to die," it is "how many Freys deserve to die." No doubt our resident Tywins are going to be cheering every Frey death, deserved or not, all the while claiming the moral high ground*. I, for one, won't. Because I don't think murdering innocents is justifiable. *You can either claim the moral high ground, or you can call for Frey genocide. You can't do both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Mature and compassionate people don't advocate collective punishments, let alone child murder. Ned Stark understood that; you clearly don't. Actually, we're dealing with military law here. Killing civilians is the most basic of war crimes, and has always been recognised as such. The Red Wedding was itself a war crime, but not on the scale of killing civilians. No, they aren't. They have neither the mens rea (required mental element) nor the actus reus (actually committing the killings). Brilliant logic that. "We'll kill all the adults, innocent or not.""Oh wait, there's some kids too.""We killed all the adults, so there's no-one to look after them. Let's kill them too." You're justifying killing innocent children because, having killed innocent adults, you have decided there is nowhere for them to go. The fact that you created this situation by killing innocent adults seems to have escaped you.Just because YOU say the Red Wedding was a military crime doesn't make it so. Your opinion doesn't make things law. Nearly everyone in the novels say the Red Wedding is a crime against Gods and Man. They don't dance around a flimsy excuse like "It was a military crime" because the dead are soldiers.And like I said letting the children go isn't the RIGHT thing to do its the thing you do to let yourself off the hook. Killing them isn't right either, it's easier, and self serving, but it'll at least serve a point. It would be a punishment so harsh something like the Red Wedding would never happen again.And looking up a bunch of legal words on the Internet doesn't make you a lawyer. It's common sense. If your dad invites the neighbor over and you know he's going to kill the guy, but do no thing to stop it, or in fact do nothing at all, your guilty too. Maybe you'd get off with a weaker sentence but your still going to jail. The only way you can get out of it is if your life would be in danger by doing something and we all know Walder a Frey isn't killing one of his own. Look up all the fancy words on Wiki that you want but that's just common sense. Doing nothing is a crime. Roslin knew what was going to happen, and if she knew the other women likely did also. None of them did anything so they're all guilty. I don't understand what your gripe is, do you just like to argue. I swear to God every time I see an argument on this sight your name is attached. We'll if it makes you feel any better YOU WIN. Happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Just because YOU say the Red Wedding was a military crime doesn't make it so. Your opinion doesn't make things law. just because it happened to a Stark does not make it the worst crime in the entire history of Westeros. If this had happened to an unknown family in Pentos none of you would give a shit, its because it happened to a Stark, not because you all see guest rights as some scared right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 See, I like Pod. The sweet child that is Pod in books and the sexual tyrannosaur that we have in the show.And, while it's sad and unfair what LS is doing, for her, Pod is not a child. He's a Lannister. That's all she knows: he helped them fight against her side. She doesn't know his story, nor she knows whether he's in fact the kind and loyal kid we met. She doesn't read the books.So, there is no way she -or anyone- would ever know exactly which Frey participated and which one didn't. I don't consider Merret Frey a bad guy, just an idiot. But he did participate anyway, for whatever reasons. I'm sure a lot of Frey soldiers were actually good people who only followed orders. As I'm sure many Northerners that died that day probably also pillaged and raped women. That's the thing with war, no one can't tell you if you deserve to die or not. Your allegiance, even if it's forced, is what can save you or condemn you. Being a Frey nowadays is a dangerous thing in Westeros, whether you're good or bad, young or old, because the highest ranks of the Freys have caused the situation. So, sadly, the "Freys" are going to die.Well, I think it's safe to say that Frey babies weren't involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 1) The Freys do have family that would take them in. 2) The Targs were wiped out because of Aerys and Rhaegars crimes. 3) The Freys aren't hated by everyone.1) They have family but I'm not sure they'd take them in. Especially now that there is open season on killing Frey soldiers and kin. Maybe they'd find a home but I know I wouldn't put my own family in jeopardy to save someone who may very well get us all killed. 2) The Targ were wiped out to secure Robert's throne. Tywin admitted to that much and he's the one who ordered it.3) I'm sure there is somebody in the story who doesn't mind them but outside of relatives I can't recall any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Well, I think it's safe to say that Frey babies weren't involved. I wouldn't know... Walder was a little shit since she was a kid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 just because it happened to a Stark does not make it the worst crime in the entire history of Westeros. If this had happened to an unknown family in Pentos none of you would give a shit, its because it happened to a Stark, not because you all see guest rights as some scared right. I agree. Joff was killed by his guests. The Tyrells broke guest rights just like the Freys, but rarely do I see people callling for their heads. The difference is that it happened to the Starks. I don't think it's about guest rights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilEye Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Well, I think it's safe to say that Frey babies weren't involved. You don't know that. Those Frey babies are devious little bastards. Some of them, at least. The ones born on the wrong side of the sheets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Sadly there are at least one or two good Freys. Most of them are dicks though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 1) They have family but I'm not sure they'd take them in. Especially now that there is open season on killing Frey soldiers and kin. Maybe they'd find a home but I know I wouldn't put my own family in jeopardy to save someone who may very well get us all killed.2) The Targ were wiped out to secure Robert's throne. Tywin admitted to that much and he's the one who ordered it.3) I'm sure there is somebody in the story who doesn't mind them but outside of relatives I can't recall any.1) Really? Because there are Freys staying with relatives in the Vale (who were friends of the Starks to boot) with no evidence that they'll throw them out. 2) And the war started because of the crimes of the Targaryens. 3) Most people are neutral towards them. The RW is hated and perhaps a handful of Freys, but not all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 just because it happened to a Stark does not make it the worst crime in the entire history of Westeros. If this had happened to an unknown family in Pentos none of you would give a shit, its because it happened to a Stark, not because you all see guest rights as some scared right.This didn't even concern YOU. BTW I didn't even mention the Starks. But actually, yes, most characters in the story do consider this one of the worst crimes ever. It doesn't matter who it happened to. They broke one of Westeros' oldest and most sacred laws on a massive scale, so yeah, it's a pretty big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I wouldn't know... Walder was a little shit since she was a kid... Walder was a spoiled brat. He wasn't cutting open pregnant cats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.