Heresy 157

[Black Crow]

On assumption 1, what exactly were those pre-Trident orders, I wonder.

Ah, well if we knew that we wouldn't have had years of being told that anyone questioning R+L=J was a troll.

Seriously though, it isn't an easy question to answer because there are a couple of contradictions to tie up, not in the statement itself but how it fits the circumstances.

Messrs Dayne and Whent are described as Rhaegar's constant companions - leading to a quite extraordinary argument that when Rhaegar was eventually recalled to Kings Landing they went too, but then turned around and came back again instead of going up to the Trident. Why, and what the point of this was I really have no idea. Be that as it may, GRRM cites by way of example that if Prince Rhaegar gave an order they would have to obey it as if it came from the king. Its therefore reasonable to say that Whent and Dayne were in Dorne in the first place because Rhaegar said "follow me lads".

Its when we come to Ser Gerold Hightower it gets complicated.

Old Ser Gerold is the Commander of the Kingsguard. Ser Gerold has not been assigned as close protection for Prince Rhaegar, Ser Gerold takes his orders from the King and no-one else.

If Ser Gerold is in Dorne he is in Dorne because Aerys has ordered him to go to Dorne to summon Rhaegar and then stay there and as to the why, given Aerys paranoia [and remember that just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean the bastards aren't out to get you] its more than likely that Aerys wanted him to separate Rhaegar from his shadows.

[JNR]

On assumption 1, what exactly were those pre-Trident orders, I wonder.

Well, that's an interesting question indeed. For me it comes down to the question of what the KG really do.

If you see them as, in a very limited and literal sense, guarding the king, then it's absolute folly ever to move them physically far away from the king. That just makes it impossible for them to do their job.

But suppose you see them as, in a larger sense, protecting the interests of the Targaryen family and reign. Now they can be allocated to do whatever is deemed most strategic along those lines. They can guard other, non-king people, they can fight in battles, they can be moved far away from the king, etc etc.

We see numerous instances of the second principle at work. In the Battle of the Blackwater, for instance, King Joffrey's life is obviously in mortal danger. Yet even so, there are KG who are assigned, and not by Joffrey himself, to leave his presence and go do other things, because those things are deemed more important.

At no time did those KG suddenly decide "Good God, we're shirking our primary duty of protecting the king!!" and go do that instead.

So I find it plausible that Rhaegar, before the Trident, could have had some higher strategic agenda in mind than we know at the moment, and could have given those three KG orders along those lines.

I also think that if Aerys had subsequently given them a direct order such as "Come protect me," they would have done that instead. But he didn't, and they didn't.

I find them similar to the KG at the Battle of the Blackwater as described above. I think they were assuming that their assigned orders trumped their personal concept of what it would be best to do, and therefore as GRRM said, they were not just going to make up their own orders to replace Rhaegar's.

[Frey family reunion]

I've made this point about 10 times and no one addresses it. "Far away, or Aerys would YET sit the Iron Throne"...ie, if the KG had been there they would have been forced to uphold the first duty and protect him. Removing themselves from Aerys' presence & immediate vicinity provides a loophole for the failure of the first duty.....they can't be expected to protect the king if they aren't physically there.

Either they were ordered to be far away and leave Aerys unprotected (save for Jaime, whose loyalty was dubious from the start), or they chose to go/stay far away of their own accord. Either way, it accomplishes the same goal of leaving Aerys wide open for assassination, and putting Jaime in the position of defending his king to the death.

Jaime threw the monkey wrench into the machinery by not graciously dying the way he was supposed to, although he did somewhat remedy the problem by killing Aerys anyway. It still left a Lannister alive and well, but hey, you can't have everything.

I see it in a similar but slightly different way. If they were at King's Landing it would only be because they acknowledged that Aerys was their rightful king. Their decision not to be at King's Landing shows that they are no longer acknowledging Aerys as their rightful king. In other words, I don't think that they removed themselves from King's Landing so they didn't have to do their duty, I think they believed that their duty took them away from King's Landing and to Lyanna and her unborn child.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

On assumption 1, what exactly were those pre-Trident orders, I wonder.

"Win or lose, your job is to protect and defend my son and heir, the Prince that was Promised... Aegon Targaryen."

I don't think that the answer was nonsensical. Rather I think that, just as with his other response to the why fight at the tower question and now this Viserys business, GRRM was simply trying, without being explicit to say that they were not at the tower to protect King Jon Snow.

Not nonsensical, no... but he didn't quite answer the question the way it was intended, either. In fact, I've always read it as a bit of a correction by Martin... i.e., pointing out that the question itself is wrong. Here's how I look at that exchange (re-phrasing):

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to do [A] instead of doing ?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to [choose] their orders. They do , but they [don't always get to choose]. ...Rhaegar... [can order them around].

[Black Crow]

Yup. Now that we know any child there definitely wasn't king as Viserys was the heir, it makes even less sense. The KG had always been gone while the king (Aerys) lived. Them being at the TOJ because the king was there never made any sense when they'd been away from the king all along.

That's always been the problem with the proposition that Rhaegar ordered all three to remain in Dorne to protect Jon Snow. At the point when he was summonsed back to Kings Landing his son Aegon was still alive and Aegon was the one, according to the House of the Undying vision, he had decided was the prince that was promised, not Lyanna's bump.

[Black Crow]

Well, that's an interesting question indeed. For me it comes down to the question of what the KG really do.

If you see them as, in a very limited and literal sense, guarding the king, then it's absolute folly ever to move them physically far away from the king. That just makes it impossible for them to do their job.

But suppose you see them as, in a larger sense, protecting the interests of the Targaryen family and reign. Now they can be allocated to do whatever is deemed most strategic along those lines. They can guard other, non-king people, they can fight in battles, they can be moved far away from the king, etc etc.

We see numerous instances of the second principle at work. In the Battle of the Blackwater, for instance, King Joffrey's life is obviously in mortal danger. Yet even so, there are KG who are assigned, and not by Joffrey himself, to leave his presence and go do other things, because those things are deemed more important.

At no time did those KG suddenly decide "Good God, we're shirking our primary duty of protecting the king!!" and go do that instead.

Which is exactly why I'm suggesting that they were intending to set about protecting Viserys their king by slaying his enemies rather than simply rushing to his side to look decorative.

[Frey family reunion]

The problem with a lot of this analysis is that we are ascribing a lot of nuances to the actions of the Kingsguards. Maybe Rhaegar ordered them and they could not counterman a direct order from a Prince even if the order seemed to go against their duty to protect the king; or maybe Aerys ordered Hightower to keep an eye on whatever Rhaegar was upt to, ect. ect.

I think the beauty of the true Kingsguard is ultimately when push comes to shove they can take a very black or white position (pun intended). Our duty is to protect the king. So when Hightower believes that Aerys is the king, he tells Jaime not to judge Aerys batshit insane and brutal actions of burning people alive, he means it.

So when Hightower, Arthur and Oswell very matter of factly tell Eddard that they were at the tower (and thus not at King's Landing, not at the Trident, not at Dragonstone) because of their vow then it can only mean one thing, they convinced themselves that their ultimate vow meant protecting Lyanna's child and not Aerys, or Rhaegar, or Viserys, or Aegon, or Dany. So unlike Jaime who always had problems juggling his differing vows, the Kingsguards at the tower could die feeling absolutely justified in what they did.

Now I believe that Martin has kept this possibility open by making Duncan the Small the eldest of Aegon V children. Which means his descendants could have a better claim to the throne if Aegon V in fact reinstated Duncan the Small's claim the throne at Summerhall. And it just so happens that since all of the Targaryen royal family was at Summerhall at the time, it almost certainly means that Gerold Hightower would have also been there to witness that.

And finally if Kingsblood is as big of a deal as I think it might be, then this possibility gives Jon a possible source of Kingsblood from a wide variety of sources. He would have a Targaryen/Blackwood/Dayne/Nymeria bloodlines through his paternal grandfather, the blood of other long dead First Men Kings perhaps from south of the Neck through Jenny (if what she claims is correct about being descended from First Men kings) and Stark bloodlines and all of the other Northern Kings that intermarried with the Starks through his mother.

[Black Crow]

I see it in a similar but slightly different way. If they were at King's Landing it would only be because they acknowledged that Aerys was their rightful king. Their decision not to be at King's Landing shows that they are no longer acknowledging Aerys as their rightful king. In other words, I don't think that they removed themselves from King's Landing so they didn't have to do their duty, I think they believed that their duty took them away from King's Landing and to Lyanna and her unborn child.

Nah, although we're struggling to interpret the orders, GRRM is for once pretty explicit:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

Whatever they were doing they were not making up their own orders.

As to the vow, I'm suggesting the vow was simply that as the Kingsguard they were out to kill the king's enemies or die in the attempt

[Urrax2]

That's always been the problem with the proposition that Rhaegar ordered all three to remain in Dorne to protect Jon Snow. At the point when he was summonsed back to Kings Landing his son Aegon was still alive and Aegon was the one, according to the House of the Undying vision, he had decided was the prince that was promised, not Lyanna's bump.

That assumes, of course, that it was Aegon and Elia that Dany saw in the HotU. She wouldn't know Lyanna from Elia.

[Black Crow]

Nah, there is an SSM out there where GRRM explicitly confirms it was Elia and Aegon.

ETA: and a bit of a bugger to track it down. It's referenced in the Citadel summary on this site, but no link is given. Eventually I found this which appears to go back to 1999:

http://community.fortunecity.ws/healthclub/rowing/100/clashkin/thread2s/thread2s1.html

Ran

User ID: 0867924 Apr 10th 4:38 AM

This is from an e-mail that Revanshe forwarded to the board from an ASoIaF mailing list, originally posted by Rania after recieving a reply from GRRM:

<< Who is the couple celebrating the birth of a son that Dany sees in her vision in the wizard's palacein Qarth? Can you tell us? Is it Rhaegar and someone? or is it the original Aegon (the Conqueror?) >>

Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne.

Someone else, or maybe still Revanshe, forwarded from the same list:

I asked GRRM today about that, he said that the child from the scene is dead. I also asked whether The Song of Ice and Fire are the song of someone particular, he said that the phrase could be used in many contexts....obviously, he is hiding something :)

[markg171]

Which is exactly why I'm suggesting that they were intending to set about protecting Viserys their king by slaying his enemies rather than simply rushing to his side to look decorative.

Well as we see, Stannis didn't even take Dragonstone for another 9 months after Aerys was killed. Viserys was therefore already very safe being on Dragonstone. 3 KG aren't going to change that, when as long as there's no military fleet to oppose the Targaryen one around Dragonstone, no one can harm Viserys.

So like you say, the 3 KG trying to kill Viserys' enemies is more helpful than them trying to get to Dragonstone, when no one can harm Viserys on Dragonstone yet.

That assumes, of course, that it was Aegon and Elia that Dany saw in the HotU. She wouldn't know Lyanna from Elia.

Rhaegar calls the child Aegon in the vision...

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

[Frey family reunion]

Nah, although we're struggling to interpret the orders, GRRM is for once pretty explicit:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

Whatever they were doing they were not making up their own orders.

As to the vow, I'm suggesting the vow was simply that as the Kingsguard they were out to kill the king's enemies or die in the attempt

I see it as analagous to Asimovs three laws:

Law 1 protect the king and obey the King's orders

Law2 protect the royal family and obey their orders unless it contradicts Law 1

Law 3 protect the weak and otherwise be an honorable knight unless it contradicts law 2 and 1

So I don't think their smug certainty in the rightness of their actions can be attributed to merely following Rhaegar's orders especially if at least one of them was aware of Aerys taking Rhaegar out of the line of succession

[Black Crow]

So I don't think their smug certainty in the rightness of their actions can be attributed to merely following Rhaegar's orders especially if at least one of them was aware of Aerys taking Rhaegar out of the line of succession

Indeed, which is why I suggested that messrs Whent and Dayne were in Dorne in the first place because they were following Rhaegar's orders, but latterly it was down to Hightower following Aerys' orders.

[JNR]

PrettyPig, on 12 Mar 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

ETA: can we start talking about Balrogs again? The TOJ horse is dead and rotting, but Balrogs..... *heavy breathing*

Sure. First, let's frame the debate with a little useful context.

No one doubts that there exists at least one Balrog in GRRMworld. That's rock-solid, unwritten canon that is 100% probable, as conclusively shown by Snowfyre Chorus yesterday. Anyone who argues otherwise can only be a fool, a troll, or new to the series.

Beyond that, we have

1. The Balrog-at-Winterfell camp (which is right-thinking, clever, and insightful) and

2. The Balrog-at-Hardhome camp (which is dubious, ill-informed, and sketchier than the protagonist of a-Ha's video to "Take on Me").

I think we can safely conclude the Balrog-at-Hardhome camp has no idea what it is talking about in thinking that whatever may or may not have happened at Hardhome... six hundred years ago... is in any way relevant to the world of the books at the time of the story.

The Balrog-at-Hardhome camp actually reminds me of Zoot at Castle Anthrax in that it is using a false beacon (of Hardhome going up in flames 600 years ago) to inspire hope in the minds of that misguided theory's followers. And like Zoot, the followers of that theory deserve neither attention nor praise, but only some sort of embarrassing punishment.

The wise, who accept the overwhelming evidence of a Balrog at Winterfell, can then debate whether the Balrog is in the crypts at all, in Lyanna's in particular, or deeper in the crypts.

I should also point out that all of Jon's dreams of the crypts make perfect sense if we imagine that his great fear in those dreams, as invariably reported, is due to the most fearful single entity in the shared world of GRRM/Tolkien (to wit, a Balrog).

The fact that it is a shared world should be obvious to all, and disputed by none... except maybe those utter fools in another place. By which I mean the UK House of Commons.

And, of course, there's also the fascinating new idea, had by me only this morning, that in addition to traditional Balrogs, made of fire and shadow, there might also be ice Balrogs, made of ice and shadow. While I admit the evidence for ice Balrogs is skimpy, it would nevertheless explain many mysteries, such as the series title, which definitely seems to be all about Balrogs one way or another.

Once this is accepted, we could then proceed from there to the intriguing possibility that Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar Targaryen, is in reality either a fire Balrog, an ice Balrog, or half of each (this would be my guess)... hence Rhaegar's remark about the song of ice and fire being Aegon's. We could then compare Young Griff's eye color to the expected eye color of various Balrogs to determine which sort he is.

[PrettyPig]

And, of course, there's also the fascinating new idea, had by me only this morning, that in addition to traditional Balrogs, made of fire and shadow, there might also be ice Balrogs, made of ice and shadow. While I admit the evidence for ice Balrogs is skimpy, it would nevertheless explain many mysteries, such as the series title, which definitely seems to be all about Balrogs one way or another.

Once this is accepted, we could then proceed from there to the intriguing possibility that Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar Targaryen, is in reality either a fire Balrog, an ice Balrog, or half of each (this would be my guess)... hence Rhaegar's remark about the song of ice and fire being Aegon's. We could then compare Young Griff's eye color to the expected eye color of various Balrogs to determine which sort he is.

The North is most certainly home to an ice balrog, more colloquially referred to as a Bewilderbeast. It is known.

https://www.howtotrainyourdragon.com/explore/dragons/valka-bewilderbeast

Huge cold climate deep dweller, icy breath, pale blue eyes..... I mean, come on, people. How much more proof do you need?

[Black Crow]

I asked GRRM today about that, he said that the child from the scene is dead. I also asked whether The Song of Ice and Fire are the song of someone particular, he said that the phrase could be used in many contexts.

This, I thought was interesting as it confirms that the Song of Ice and Fire does not solely revolve around the Prince that was Promised.

[WeaselPie]

"Win or lose, your job is to protect and defend my son and heir, the Prince that was Promised... Aegon Targaryen."

^ This, I've brought this up before. Rhaegar's precious TWTWP was far more important to him than anyone else. Even his secret bride and potential third head of the dragon, it can be argued.

[PrettyPig]

This, I thought was interesting as it confirms that the Song of Ice and Fire does not solely revolve around the Prince that was Promised.

Equally interesting is the reference to "the child in the scene" being dead, not baby Aegon Targaryen being dead.

[Matthew.]

So I find it plausible that Rhaegar, before the Trident, could have had some higher strategic agenda in mind than we know at the moment, and could have given those three KG orders along those lines.

I also think that if Aerys had subsequently given them a direct order such as "Come protect me," they would have done that instead. But he didn't, and they didn't.

I think this is what was happening as well; I think certain KG, but especially Dayne, were walking a fine line between violating the spirit of their office without actually outright being oathbreakers.

In that regard, aiding Rhaegar in gaining popular support to nonviolently remove Aerys from the throne might have been something they were able to reconcile with a broader notion of protecting the realm, and the interest of House Targaryen, whereas what Jaime did was obviously a step too far; this is the same reason they wouldn't actually pop into the king's bedroom and tear him away from Rhaella.

If that's the philosophy that was guiding people like Dayne (and I'll grant, this is a huge amount of speculation), then fulfilling Rhaegar's final orders without having received contradictory orders from the king may be plausible, especially if the consensus within the KG was largely the same as what Barristan concluded: Rheagar would be a fine king.

That's always been the problem with the proposition that Rhaegar ordered all three to remain in Dorne to protect Jon Snow. At the point when he was summonsed back to Kings Landing his son Aegon was still alive and Aegon was the one, according to the House of the Undying vision, he had decided was the prince that was promised, not Lyanna's bump.

This presumes that, by the time Rhaegar returned from his absence, that he still believed Aegon was TpTWP, or indeed that he still believed in the prophecy at all. Rhaegar's mindset during the final months of his life remain a big blank spot for us.

[Black Crow]

Equally interesting is the reference to "the child in the scene" being dead, not baby Aegon Targaryen being dead.

Yes, I noticed that bit. It rather decisively rules out the occasional suggestion that Danaerys is looking at Jon Snow, but of course it appears to run contrary to GRRM's much later enigmatic reply that Princess Rhaenys died in the sack while pointedly avoiding confirmation that Aegon did so. I wonder therefore, bearing in mind that this is comes from 1999 whether the apparent change is a consequence of the Mereenese Knot, ie; finding Danaerys way behind the original schedule to invade Westeros in book 2, he has resurrected Aegon to get things back on track.