Heresy 157

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

9 circles of the Inferno, followed by Lucifer contained at its bottom; 9 rings of Mount Purgatory, followed by the Garden of Eden crowning its summit; and the 9 celestial bodies of Paradiso, followed by the Empyrean containing the very essence of God.

There are definitely some Inferno allusions going on in these books. In fact, recall that the Ninth circle of hell is reserved for...

1. Turncloaks

Kinslayers

Violators of Guest Right

Not to mention that this is where we find Lucifer (aka Lightbringer) himself... a giant who happens to have three heads.

[Black Crow]

9 circles of the Inferno, followed by Lucifer contained at its bottom; 9 rings of Mount Purgatory, followed by the Garden of Eden crowning its summit; and the 9 celestial bodies of Paradiso, followed by the Empyrean containing the very essence of God.

Right, that was what was confusing me. I can understand it but I'm still not sure that we can link it to the Nights King.

[Black Crow]

There are definitely some Inferno allusions going on in these books. In fact, recall that the Ninth circle of hell is reserved for...

1. Turncloaks

Kinslayers

Violators of Guest Right

Not to mention that this is where we find Lucifer (aka Lightbringer) himself... a giant who happens to have three heads.

Ah, so there may be some truth in the joke that it is not the three-headed dragon that will save Westeros from the Others but rather than the Others will save Westeros from the three-headed dragon and his flaming sword.

[Eira Seren]

Hmm, yeah I can see that. Sorry. It was said in sorrow and frustration, I thought calmly and quietly, not intended to be sneering or snide or sarcastic. I am aware that by speaking up I temporarily increase the tension here, but the hope is that doing so might overall decrease the hostility here in the long run. I feel assaulted here often, even before I open my mouth.

Sorry I have often take that tone with people too, so really I have no call to be saying anything.

Likely some of the frustration is something I'm bringing with me and I don't like how people have been treated in other places, but sometimes maybe my own biases get the best of me.

[Eira Seren]

In the books, as Ygritte and Snowfyre pointed out, there are the nine weirwoods.

In the show, it seems possible the King of Winter wore ancient underwear on his head.

Or if it was a crown, ala the books, maybe the nine swords referred to the nine Nazgul, who in the Age of Heroes flew to Westeros from Middle Earth to serve the King of Winter (who had formed an alliance with Sauron and requested a Balrog but didn't get one deployed).

There's a nifty allusion (the Tolkien, not the fruit of the loom hat).

Are you sure no baelrog? Could the location have been mixed up and it was mistakenly interdimensionally transferred and arrived in a state of massive confusion just outside hardhome?

Thanks. I was thinking the circle beyond the wall was 6 trees. But 6 turned out to be 9, and I don't mind. ;)

It may that the nine has no special meaning; it may be that GRRM fancies that number. But that won't stop me from searching :)

Thinking about what has been posted recently, I thought that maybe the circle of nine weirwoods is were the Starks became kings of winter. The site of an event witnessed by weirwoods and possible sacrifices too. Nine beheadings or nine swordsmen to seal the deal. Kinda like the Isle with a Pact and witnesses. Thus they put a circle of nine as the crown of winter.

Just to throw it out there, maybe the original crown was a circle of nine trees

'

An interesting idea. That would make the crown fairly old, and probably the runes on it, too.

The Secret Life of Six. ("Six knows how to stand on his head....")

:) been quite a while since I heard they might be giants

There are definitely some Inferno allusions going on in these books. In fact, recall that the Ninth circle of hell is reserved for...

• Turncloaks
• Kinslayers
• Violators of Guest Right

Not to mention that this is where we find Lucifer (aka Lightbringer) himself... a giant who happens to have three heads.

Or the special icy hell reserved for the starks?

[WeaselPie]

There's a nifty allusion (the Tolkien, not the fruit of the loom hat).

Are you sure no baelrog? Could the location have been mixed up and it was mistakenly interdimensionally transferred and arrived in a state of massive confusion just outside hardhome?

'

An interesting idea. That would make the crown fairly old, and probably the runes on it, too.

:) been quite a while since I heard they might be giants

Or the special icy hell reserved for the starks?

Are the crypts all empty? ;)

[JNR]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMCwK3ucFsc

The Secret Life of Six. ("Six knows how to stand on his head....")

That can't be right, because there is no six.

Are you sure no baelrog? Could the location have been mixed up and it was mistakenly interdimensionally transferred and arrived in a state of massive confusion just outside hardhome?

No, if there is a Balrog, it can only be in the obvious location: Lyanna's crypt.

In fact, the Winterfell crypts only exist because the dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. (Glad that's cleared up.)

ETA: I just thought of another Tolkien parallel. Seems so obvious.

If Black Crow is right, the original crown of the King of Winter had no swords. It was perfectly round and made of metal that was colored somewhere between yellow and brown. It was also inscribed with runes or characters of some sort.

It was, put simply, the One Ring. The Kings of Winter were just much smaller men than we thought.

[Eira Seren]

That can't be right, because

No, if there is a Balrog, it can only be in the obvious location: Lyanna's crypt.

In fact, the Winterfell crypts only exist because the dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. (Glad that's cleared up.)

Am not sure it's cleared up at all. What is the evidence for a baelrog's presence at winterfell? Hardhome seems far more likely.

[JNR]

The Balrog was drawn to the power of the One Ring, which sat on the head of the Kings of Winter (see ETA in previous post), who lived at Winterfell. Not Hardhome.

[Urrax2]

Am not sure it's cleared up at all. What is the evidence for a baelrog's presence at winterfell? Hardhome seems far more likely.

Balrogs like to hang out deep down. Hardhome wouldn't suit them. Deeeeeeep in the crypts ( not up high with Lyanna), that's their kind of place. Ask Hodor, he knows.

[wolfmaid7]

And this here i think is the problem starting with a positive conclusion that has not proven to be positive. Instead of starting out with no bias.But i'll bite lets look at this retrospectively with the conclusion that R+L=J ( I'd be fired for sure if i did this).

I disagree there is nothing more "remarkable" than that Tower.Your eyes would be drawn to it as a landmark.Along the route there is Skyreach,Kingsgrave and the Tower and to say that it is close to the beaten track but off it and not a place anyone would go to is inaccurate.It is the easiest route between the Reach and the Stormlands into Dorne.You can't get less inconspicuous than that.One of the best ways Corbon to not be visible is to not be seen dilly dallying in front of the Tower when "anybody" is coming up the Pass.And the fact that Ned knew where to find them means it sucked as a secret hide out in theory and in action.

Your better off with Lya went into labor and it was what they could do on short notice and even that idea has serious problems.

It wasn't a secret hide out because someone knew where to look.I'm sorry i don't buy the secrecy angle at all it falls apart. And this fleeing is risky is a bad arguement too.According to you there is a newborn,so that means there is lets say one midwife.Lya is already critical if she's at the Tower in the first place. The midwife could have been given instruction,one Kingsguard could have gone with while the other two ( including one who could beat a man taking a piss with one hand yada yada stays back and whole Ned off the moment he was seen coming up the Pass .Hel the moment the babe was born.Whent was the weakest of the three he could have gone with the baby and the midwife (because we know no woman isn't doing that on her own).

Secrecy is already out the window i don't know what more they could do to make themselves more obvious.What a crying baby wasn't going to give that away.Hope of beating Ned and his party.That's a foolish risk to take Corbon.A really foolish risk no matter how good the KGs think they are.They have no way of knowing if there is reinforcement in the back of them.

Secrecy was out the door the moment they chose to stop in an obvious place and it was obvious.Destroying all who knows.What if it wasn't seven who showed up but 20,30,100 this wasn't thought out Corbon,sorry.Your job i think would be anticipating the worst possible scenario.Any and every scenario presented knocks secrecy and physicall protection off the peg.

Meaning the KGs based on this statement and their reaction to Ned's Jamie killed Aerys,the Queen fled to Dragnstone with Viserys makes it more likely based on what Yandel said about Viserys being heir that the KG knew the King made him the heir.Your statement that the info they recieved could only come from the New Regime is also not as solid.It could have come from a friendly in the Wall.That is a possibility.

It was still a stupid risk to fight witout making a plan that would maybe see them dead and the baby captured.And i really really doubt that Dayne or any of those KG would peg Ned for a kinslayer.I'm sorry,Dayne atlease knew Ned better than that.

Corbon what your saying doesn't make sense they would think he changed the succession because Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and they already knew they were dead and the particulars of how they died including the King.And they knew the King was alive when the Queen and Viserys left it only makes sense that's the conclusion.

Great example of a reality check for some of us. I agree with the bolded part- unless we assume Ned had a larger army behind him, the seven against three are only impossible odds if the two sides are somewhat evenly matched. But these KG, especially Ser Arthur, are said to be unbelievably talented swordsmen. Jaime says Ser Arthur can kill his enemies with his left hand while taking a piss with his right. Barristan (who I know wasn't there,but is also an example of the old school KG) says even in his old age he could easily cut through the 5 new KG of Joffrey's. So the KG are not regular knights, and you're right, they almost won. We don't know what Howland did to turn the fight, but I get the feeling it was something ... dishonorable. He didn't charge in with a sword to defend an injured Ned, but used either magic or trickery or maybe just literal back stabbing. Without him, the survivors would have been Ser Arthur and whatever was in that tower.

Soooo Ned who knew how talented these men were off the bat, brought 7 men and with a hope and a prayer thought nah we are just going to talk? IMO Ned's fever dream jumbled to events what happened at the TOJ and Lya's death into one sequence.

OK, let's look at that as a starting point.

That the KG were far away from Aerys when he died is apparent from Hightower's remark in Ned's dream (if we interpret it literally).

But how do you conclude the boldfaced?

:agree:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Am not sure it's cleared up at all. What is the evidence for a baelrog's presence at winterfell? Hardhome seems far more likely.

Oh, the balrog does turn up here and there - though perhaps not at Winterfell (but who knows?). For instance, we have Dany's visions in the House of the Undying:

"From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire..." (2.48, DANY)

And of course, we have R'hllor, and his priestess Melisandre... Cressen thinks of Mel like this:

The red woman, the servants had named her, afraid to speak her name. "I will speak her name," Cressen told his stone hellhound. "Melisandre. Her." Melisandre of Asshai, sorceress, shadowbinder, and priestess to R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Melisandre, whose madness must not be allowed to spread beyond Dragonstone. (2.00, Prologue)

"[stannis] has an ally," Lady Selys said. "R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow." (2.00, Prologue)

And later, Mel's tutorial to Davos... "Introduction to Flame and Shadow 101:"

"A shadow is a thing of darkness."

"You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows." (2.42, DAVOS)

All rather Balroggish, if you ask me... :) And if you want something at Winterfell, maybe first we have to explain the thing Summer saw (or didn't see, depending):

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars. (2.69, BRAN)

[JNR]

Snowfyre has conclusively proven the presence of a Balrog beyond any possible doubt.

We also know that the Balrog is named R'hllor, and was flying over Winterfell in ACOK, which was previously predicted in the HOTU vision in the same book.

Also confirmed is that the Balrog did in fact have wings. Glad that's cleared up. It's been the equivalent of the ToJ dream among Tolkien freaks for decades.

[Frey family reunion]

Oh, the balrog does turn up here and there - though perhaps not at Winterfell (but who knows?). For instance, we have Dany's visions in the House of the Undying:

"From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire..." (2.48, DANY)

And of course, we have R'hllor, and his priestess Melisandre... Cressen thinks of Mel like this:

The red woman, the servants had named her, afraid to speak her name. "I will speak her name," Cressen told his stone hellhound. "Melisandre. Her." Melisandre of Asshai, sorceress, shadowbinder, and priestess to R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Melisandre, whose madness must not be allowed to spread beyond Dragonstone. (2.00, Prologue)

"[stannis] has an ally," Lady Selys said. "R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow." (2.00, Prologue)

And later, Mel's tutorial to Davos... "Introduction to Flame and Shadow 101:"

"A shadow is a thing of darkness."

"You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows." (2.42, DAVOS)

All rather Balroggish, if you ask me... :) And if you want something at Winterfell, maybe first we have to explain the thing Summer saw (or didn't see, depending):

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars. (2.69, BRAN)

Heh, perhaps Davos saw one over the Blackwater Bay as well:

Fifty feet high, a swirling demon of green flame danced upon the river. It had a dozen hands, in each a whip, and whatever they touched burst into fire.

[JNR]

Heh, perhaps Davos saw one over the Blackwater Bay as well:

Great catch.

And we also finally know what the World book was talking about with that reference to the mountains north of Asshai containing

demons and dragons and worse

[Black Crow]

I've never been backward in admitting my ignorance.

What the hell is a balrog?

[Urrax2]

I've never been backward in admitting my ignorance.

What the hell is a balrog?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balrog

[PrettyPig]

According to The Silmarillion, the Valaraukar (which were called Balrogs in Middle-Earth) were Maiar (angelic beings) that were "scourges of fire". They were seduced by the evil ValaMelkor, who corrupted them to his service in the days of his splendor before the making of Arda.^[3][4]

Upon the awakening of the Elves, the Valar captured Melkor and destroyed his fortresses Utumno and Angband. But they overlooked the deepest pits,^[5] where, with many of Melkor's other allies, the Balrogs fled into hiding. When Melkor returned to Middle-earth from Valinor, now bearing the epithet Morgoth, he was attacked by Ungoliant, a spider-like creature; his piercing scream drew the Balrogs out of hiding to his rescue.

Tolkien tells of two Balrogs slain by Elves in the fall of Gondolin.^[8] During the assault on the city, Ecthelion of the Fountain fought Gothmog, and "each slew the other." Glorfindel fought a Balrog who waylaid an escape party from the fallen city; both fell from the mountainside in the struggle and perished.

In the War of Wrath that ended the First Age, most of the Balrogs were destroyed, although some including the Balrog known as Durin's Bane, managed to escape and hide in "caverns at the roots of the earth".^[9]

Holy crap, I'm convinced. ASOIAF has Balrogs.

[Black Crow]

#Urrax

Most kind :cheers:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Heh, perhaps Davos saw one over the Blackwater Bay as well:

Oh, yeah. Very nice catch. I'd forgotten about that one...