In defense of the Red Wedding

[Mal Malenkirk]

If the Red Wedding had been absolutely decisive and had closed the book on the war, it'd have ben a master stroke and in time would have been accepted as part of history while guest rights would still be respected.

It'd be like the USA dropping nukes on two civilians targets. Damn awful, sure, but it ended the war and today the US are not stigmatized for it and yet nuking cities is not recognized as an accepted way to conduct warfare either. It's just part of history. But imagine what would have happened if the USA had somehow lost the war despite nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A stretch, I know, but imagine the consequences...

The Red Wedding is kinda lika that. It came close to ending all the conflicts and securing the Lannister supremacy and if it had worked like that, the Red Wedding would not be much different for the Lannister/Frey then Hiroshima was for the US. But it's now apparent that the Red Wedding will not prove decisive and the longer things drag down the more the Red Wedding will in fact be an hindrance for the perpetrators.

So IMO it was a good gamble by the Lannister-Frey but they probably lost it.

[The Santa of House Claus]

Robb never even tried to bring the Vale into the fold or a part of it. He never tried to recruit Dorne. Dornish are famous for gerilla tactics and hate the Lannisters. There were some nice possibilities being open there while lords of the Reach and the Stormlands were fighting amongst themselves prior and during the Blackwater Battle. Had he tried to gain more allies and failed, that would have been another matter, but he never tried.

He tried repeatedly to bring the Vale to his side, but his crazy aunt wouldn't hear of it. He had a likely ally of sorts in Renly until Stannis murdered him. He reached out to the Iron Born too. Everyone says Dorne, but that is unrealistic, they are to far apart for effective communication and Dorne has no reason to ally itself to Robb and his cause. His best chances for allies were the Vale and Iron Islands, both of which he tried, failing because of an unstable aunt and a bitter old fool. Had Balon accepted an alliance he could have named himself king with a strong ally in Robb to help Balon hold any land he seized in the Westerlands and Reach. Had the Vale come in early for Robb I think he would have won easily, crushing the Lannisters and marching on King's Landing where he would team up with Stannis, where they would have taken the city, negotiated and at that point, either Robb takes off the crown for the sake of peace or at least recognizes Stannis as the High King and Stannis lets him keep his title.

Remember, Robb did not get into the War to become a king.

Walder Frey wanted to marry a daughter into one of the greater houses, at the time the agreement was made, Robb was not king, he wasn't even lord yet. And the Freys were there in Riverrun and one of the Houses that raised Robb up to their King.

[Universal Sword Donor]

You are right. In my mind, Seagard was NW of the Twins. It is actually SW. Therefore, my argument about Mallisters is untenable fleet no fleet.

Doesn't really matter if it's SW or NW. It's West of the Twins, meaning Robb can't get to the Mallisters without crossing the river. That means the Twins.

“I must have that crossing!” Robb declared, fuming. “Oh, our horses might be able to swim the river, I suppose, but not with armored men on their backs. We’d need to build rafts to pole our steel across, helms and mail and lances, and we don’t have the trees for that. Or the time. Lord Tywin is marching north.” He balled his hand into a fist.

As to the Mallister fleet: “A fleet, Your Grace? Half a dozen longships and two war galleys. Enough to defend my own shores against raiders, but I could not hope to meet the Iron Fleet in battle.”

[Ramsay Gimp]

If the Red Wedding had been absolutely decisive and closed the book on the war, it'd have ben a master stroke and in time would have been accepted as part of history but Guest Rights would still be respected.

It'd be like the USA dropping nukes on two civilians targets. Damn awful, sure, but it ended the war and today the US are not stigmatized for it and yet nuking cities is not recognized as an accepted way to conduct warfare either. It's just part of history. But imagine what would have happened if the USA had somehow lost the war despite nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A stretch, I know, but imagine the consequences...

The Red Wedding is kinda lika that. It came close to ending all the conflicts and securing the Lannister supremacy and if it had worked like that, the Red Wedding would be not much different for the Lannister/Frey then Hiroshima was for the US. But it's now apparent that the Red Wedding will not prove decisive and the longer things drag down the more the Red Wedding will in fact be an hindrance for the perpetrators.

So IMo it was a good gamble by the Lannister-Frey but they probably lost it.

Very good analogy. Victory justifies anything, since the victors impose their version of events, but if you commit atrocities and still lose...

If the Starks are restored to power the RW will be viewed more like the Rape of Nanking then Hiroshima/Nagasaki

[Modesty Lannister]

He tried repeatedly to bring the Vale to his side, but his crazy aunt wouldn't hear of it. He had a likely ally of sorts in Renly until Stannis murdered him. He reached out to the Iron Born too. Everyone says Dorne, but that is unrealistic, they are to far apart for effective communication and Dorne has no reason to ally itself to Robb and his cause. His best chances for allies were the Vale and Iron Islands, both of which he tried, failing because of an unstable aunt and a bitter old fool. Had Balon accepted an alliance he could have named himself king with a strong ally in Robb to help Balon hold any land he seized in the Westerlands and Reach. Had the Vale come in early for Robb I think he would have won easily, crushing the Lannisters and marching on King's Landing where he would team up with Stannis, where they would have taken the city, negotiated and at that point, either Robb takes off the crown for the sake of peace or at least recognizes Stannis as the High King and Stannis lets him keep his title.

Remember, Robb did not get into the War to become a king.

Walder Frey wanted to marry a daughter into one of the greater houses, at the time the agreement was made, Robb was not king, he wasn't even lord yet. And the Freys were there in Riverrun and one of the Houses that raised Robb up to their King.

You talk about his "repeated appeals to the Vale". I cannot remember (correct me if I'm wrong) any envoy being sent there after Catelyn gave him her report on how Lysa felt about the war. Catelyn sent a letter to Lysa, which was more related to her revelation about Lysa's abortion than anything else. That is lukewarm at best. And he never tried to get at least a part of the Vale, led by Royces, on his side. As for Dorne, I disagree. A couple of effective guerilla units wrecking havoc Dornish style would help a lot. Tywin won the war writing letters from KL, making promises. Tyrion remarked on that. I saw no real diplomacy on Robb's part. It was an amateur's work.

[Modesty Lannister]

Robb was furious over Lysa refusing to respond to his multiple requests for her aide. Since Lysa was a Tully the fact that she did not even respond to his requests was maddening for him.

How was the Westerlings a trap? Tywin tricked Robb into attacking the castle, getting injured and falling for Jeyne ? that's one hell of a trap. If Tywin could see the future that well he may have avoided getting killed by his own son.

As for Bolton , he betrayed Robb all on his own he did not need any help from Tywin.

Being furious because someone has repeatedly rejected your offer is childish. Trying to sway other lords of the Vale who could have put pressure on Lysa is good tactics. I cannot remember multiple requests. Do you have a quote on that?

Have you read an exchange between Jaime and mother Westerling?

[Frey family reunion]

I do wonder if the smallfolk may have not been a bit glad to see an earlier conclusion to the war, to you know stop all of the pillaging and destruction that boths sides were committing.

The Red Wedding was a very Machiavellian move on Tywin's part, and certainly a violation of Guest Right on the part of Walder, but my avatar aside, I do think that Roose was probably the greatest villain in the whole affair. Walder at least has an argument that Robb was the initial oathbreaker (which he certainly was), and his realm was smack dab in the middle of the fighting so he had legitimate reasons for ending the war. For Roose, it was an even greater treachery since he killed his direct liege lord soley because he saw an opportunity to seize the North.

[Modesty Lannister]

I do wonder if the smallfolk may have not been a bit glad to see an earlier conclusion to the war, to you know stop all of the pillaging and destruction that boths sides were committing.

The Red Wedding was a very Machiavellian move on Tywin's part, and certainly a violation of Guest Right on the part of Walder, but my avatar aside, I do think that Roose was probably the greatest villain in the whole affair. Walder at least has an argument that Robb was the initial oathbreaker (which he certainly was), and his realm was smack dab in the middle of the fighting so he had legitimate reasons for ending the war. For Roose, it was an even greater treachery since he killed his direct liege lord soley because he saw an opportunity to seize the North.

:agree: And it amazes me that Robb didn't smell treachery a mile away after murky accounts of events in WF by Roose paired by Ramsey's reputation.

[The Santa of House Claus]

You talk about his "repeated appeals to the Vale". I cannot remember (correct me if I'm wrong) any envoy being sent there after Catelyn gave him her report on how Lysa felt about the war. Catelyn sent a letter to Lysa, which was more related to her revelation about Lysa's abortion than anything else. That is lukewarm at best. And he never tried to get at least a part of the Vale, led by Royces, on his side. As for Dorne, I disagree. A couple of effective guerilla units wrecking havoc Dornish style would help a lot. Tywin won the war writing letters from KL, making promises. Tyrion remarked on that. I saw no real diplomacy on Robb's part. It was an amateur's work.

I believe there is a reference Robb made to Cat saying Lysa did not reply to any of his Ravens. No Vale Lord would have broken from thei Liege Lord is Robb asked. The Royces and others wanted to join the war on Robb's side already but didn't becuase Lysa would not allow it. Robb could have sent someone but it would not have mattered, assuming they got threw. Lysa wouldn't listen to Cat, Blackfish and half her Lords, she wasn't going to change her mind and no lord was going to disobey, or else they would have already.

A guerrilla campaign by the Dornish would have been awesome, I just do not see any reason for the. To side with Robb. The Martells have their own plans, why do anything for a campaign on the other side of Westeros?

The Iron Born diplomacy was weak and Theon chose his words poorly, but there again, Balon was already mobilizing with his own plans and I do not see anything changing his mind.

[John Hulboy]

I agree with Mladen... The Freys and Boltons have no honor an before it's over they will be NO MORE !!

[Frey family reunion]

:agree: And it amazes me that Robb didn't smell treachery a mile away after murky accounts of events in WF by Roose paired by Ramsey's reputation.

I think young Robb was in way over his head (pun intended).

[Tijgy]

Its amazing how much of a response a troll can get

The OP is not exactly a troll. (S)he gave arguments to proof his/her point. I think however it is impossible to justify the morality of this act.

To paraphrase what Jorah Mormont said about Rhaegar:

"Robb fought valiantly, Robb fought nobly, but Robb died".

True :crying: My heart started to bleed when I read this.

[Trevelyan]

I had to force myself to continue reading, after you used the term "morally questionable" to describe the atrocities of the Red Wedding.

There just is no defending the mass murder of thousands of unarmed men and women, who at that moment in time, were unsuspecting guests at a wedding, not soldiers fighting a war.

Every member of house Frey, who was involved in the orchestration or execution of the Red Wedding, deserves death.

[DasallmaechtigeJ]

- In regards to the betrayal, you are being naive: how would the Freys kill Robb in open battle? They are not that foolish and neither is Roose Bolton. Betrayal is still a betrayal, whether in battle or in a wedding - this was the only way to kill Robb from their viewpoint - they could not openly rebel against Robb themselves. The Red Wedding was the most effective way which got them Tywin's approval as well.

The whole point is still that they did an act considered most dishonoring in Westeros. The broke one of the three taboos (kinslaying, slavery and diregarding gurest right) that are sacred in Westeros solely out of cowardice and greed (they settled with Robb for their own advantage to begin with and left him as soon as tides turned). Westeros is a society based on values of honor and chivalry, no wonder they are walking targets now. I mean, leaving their liege lord would have been considered a crime by Robb, but they could have much more easily and honorably cut their ties by locking themselves up in the Twins and wait until the war is over, while at the same time supporting Tywin by letting him pass at will...

[Tijgy]

There just is no defending the mass murder of thousands of unarmed men and women, who at that moment in time, were unsuspecting guests at a wedding, not soldiers fighting a war.

Some readers forget that. They are so involved into the death of Robb, Catelyn and the other lords they forget all those other people who died during the wedding.

[Lee-Sensei]

I believe there is a reference Robb made to Cat saying Lysa did not reply to any of his Ravens. No Vale Lord would have broken from thei Liege Lord is Robb asked. The Royces and others wanted to join the war on Robb's side already but didn't becuase Lysa would not allow it. Robb could have sent someone but it would not have mattered, assuming they got threw. Lysa wouldn't listen to Cat, Blackfish and half her Lords, she wasn't going to change her mind and no lord was going to disobey, or else they would have already.

A guerrilla campaign by the Dornish would have been awesome, I just do not see any reason for the. To side with Robb. The Martells have their own plans, why do anything for a campaign on the other side of Westeros?

The Iron Born diplomacy was weak and Theon chose his words poorly, but there again, Balon was already mobilizing with his own plans and I do not see anything changing his mind.

Robb chose his words poorly. That wasn't Theon.

[Frey Pie]

You talk about his "repeated appeals to the Vale". I cannot remember (correct me if I'm wrong) any envoy being sent there after Catelyn gave him her report on how Lysa felt about the war. Catelyn sent a letter to Lysa, which was more related to her revelation about Lysa's abortion than anything else. That is lukewarm at best. And he never tried to get at least a part of the Vale, led by Royces, on his side. As for Dorne, I disagree. A couple of effective guerilla units wrecking havoc Dornish style would help a lot. Tywin won the war writing letters from KL, making promises. Tyrion remarked on that. I saw no real diplomacy on Robb's part. It was an amateur's work.

he sent several ravens and got no reply and cat also told him not to expect any help. Bronze Yohn was chomping at the bit though

Dorne is just really not an option. They are clearly conserving strength and Doran is too cautious to join any war effort other then the one they want

[Frey Pie]

Only one quote at the moment

"....word from the Eyrie? I wrote to aunt Lysa asking help. ...will the knights of the Vale come join us?"

[BitsOfBrains]

Your argument is well laid out OP and it was a master stroke (in a magnificent bastard sort of way) for Tywin.

For the Freys it was a TERRIBLE mistake. The house of Frey will not survive the books. It will be like the second act of Braveheart where William Wallace scours the country smashing Frey skulls in bed and jumping out of windows. Even if they do survive their very name has become a reproach. They are up there with "gyping" someone or "jewing" someone or "japping" someone.

So for Lord Tywin, great idea. He gets to win the war with zero expense and not get his hands dirty.

For old lord Walder? TERRIBLE IDEA! He gets the Riverlords who will never like him and buck him at any opportunity. and has made his very name a curse, probably forever in a world where people still remember stuff from 8k years ago.

[Lee-Sensei]

he sent several ravens and got no reply and cat also told him not to expect any help. Bronze Yohn was chomping at the bit though

Dorne is just really not an option. They are clearly conserving strength and Doran is too cautious to join any war effort other then the one they want

More likely for Jon Arryn, than Robb.

He still could have tried qith Dorne IMO.