Maester Mando Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Hello,Can anyone just answer why the followers of Stannis who worship R'hllor are still knights and are called SER? I mean its an Andal thing associated with the Seven. Same with the Brotherhood Without Banners. Gendry gets knighted by Beric... where Beric uses the wkrd GODS in the ceremony...I kmow there are some northern knights and even some ironborn, but thesewere knighted because oftneir valor in battle. Why didn't Stannis' or Beric's knights give up their SERS? Am i missing something? Is there an explanation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Well they were allready Sers before the Conversion, so I see no reason to let the title go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthGirl Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Because most of them converted out greed and ambition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Which knights would support Stannis' cause if he told them "Welcome to my army, but wait.... You have to give up your knighthood and other titles! .....Wait! Where are you going? " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Also, Stannis had Reach knights who supported Renly before.... After battle of Blackwater, Lannisters captured 619 Stannis' knights.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reginald blackfield Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Ser Bartimus clearly states he worships the Old Gods. The Meereenese boys taught to be Knights by Ser Barristan worship the Gods of Ghis. I see no reason a knight cannot worship R'hllor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Maybe Stannis will invent his own knighting ceremony, without septons and speaking about the Seven.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The non-bastard Bolton Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Which knights would support Stannis' cause if he told them "Welcome to my army, but wait.... You have to give up your knighthood and other titles! .....Wait! Where are you going? " Agreed.Also, I think that Stannis will take steps to be careful with his new god - I mean he is entering a territory where people do not know and do not care for Rhllor and they either worship the seven or the old gods. They might not take kindly to any drastic changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Ser Bartimus clearly states he worships the Old Gods. The Meereenese boys taught to be Knights by Ser Barristan worship the Gods of Ghis. I see no reason a knight cannot worship R'hllor.Theoreticaly knighthood is conected to the Faith of the Seven, but there are many northeners ( Old gods ) who achieved knighthood ( ser Jorah Mormonts, ser Byam Flint )there are also few Ironborn knights ( ser Harras Harlaw ). Stannis will change ceremony a bit and everything will be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Because most of them converted out greed and ambition? They also saw some sort of miracles like the BwB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mountain That Flies Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Knighthood may have come to Westeros as an Andal thing, but there's really no reason the same vows couldn't work with different gods substituted in for the Seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 The NW vows are given before the old or new gods. The important this is, you give your vows before the gods you are honoring. That is what is holding you. The problem is, R'hllor is probably not a god wishing you well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Mando Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 Ok, thanks forthe answers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Hello,Can anyone just answer why the followers of Stannis who worship R'hllor are still knights and are called SER? I mean its an Andal thing associated with the Seven. Same with the Brotherhood Without Banners. Gendry gets knighted by Beric... where Beric uses the wkrd GODS in the ceremony...I kmow there are some northern knights and even some ironborn, but thesewere knighted because oftneir valor in battle. Why didn't Stannis' or Beric's knights give up their SERS?Am i missing something? Is there an explanation? Beric knighting Gendry in the "general" style: A wan smile crossed Lord Beric’s lips. “Thoros, my sword.” This time the lightning lord did not set the blade afire, but merely laid it light on Gendry’s shoulder. “Gendry, do you swear before the eyes of gods and men to defend those who cannot defend themselves, to protect all women and children, to obey your captains, your liege lord, and your king, to fight bravely when needed and do such other tasks as are laid upon you, however hard or humble or dangerous they may be?” “I do, m’lord.” The marcher lord moved the sword from the right shoulder to the left, and said, “Arise Ser Gendry, knight of the hollow hill, and be welcome to our brotherhood.” A knighthood in the "Faith of the Seven" style with references to the Seven can be seen in the Dunk and Egg tales and in other places. The concept of knighthood is an Andal/Essosi thing, not a Faith of the Seven thing. Being a knight is being a knight, religion does not matter as much. Any knight can make a knight, but those who follow the Seven usually prefer to also perform thier own rites including standing vigil in a Sept. It still does not change the fact that they were knights the moment they were knighted, as we see in The Hedge Knight, where Raymun Fossoway was eligable to fight in a Trial By Seven only after being knighted, but he did not have time to stand vigil in a Sept. It did not matter, since it's his own issue, and in the eyes of the realm he was a knight the moment Lyonel Baratheon knighted him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 As other mentioned most of those men were knight prior to conversion. And I imagine if the Red Faith wants to gain ground in Westeros it will need to adapt to the traditions of the people. I could see potential knights who follow R'hllor eventually standing vigil in Red Temple with a night fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 It all depends on, but seeing how important knighthood is to Westerosi culture I don't see anything but a full-blown cultural revolution sweeping across the realm removing it, just because they got a new religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Creeping Knight Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 It doesn't have to remain an Andal custom. Simple as that, things change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 It doesn't have to remain an Andal custom. Simple as that, things change. Absolutely, but then again one can argue that it isn't strictly an Andal custom as it stands right now. I think that for example knighthood and the Seven are established in Dorne and one can argue that Dorne isn't an Andal culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 It certainly started off as a strongly andal Faith based tradition, but with 100s of years of relative religious peace throughout the continent and some northmen who keep the Old Gods being knights the tradition of it being a deeply religious right likely faded somewhat. Knighthood is an important part of westerosi culture, they wouldn't stop calling themselves "ser" just because they converted. I think it is important to note that the idea of knighthood survived andal-first men cultural mixing and the Rhoynar invasion, no reason to believe some Ashaii'i culture getting a foothold will end it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reginald blackfield Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Because most of them converted out greed and ambition?Ser Justin Massey strikes me as this. He is notably less pious than the rest of Stannis' Knights, to the extent where he accidentally says 'gods' and occasionally says things which are very borderline treacherous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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