Dornish Debates IV

[Ingelheim]

They completely misjudged each other, yes. Which is why both of their plans failed. The QM failed because Arianne just couldn’t imagine that Doran had enough control over the situation to know what she was doing, or had the will to stop her. And Doran plan to break her spirit and guilt her into doing what her needed her to failed because he just couldn’t imagine that her motivations were any more complex the the Sand Sankes’s.

I mean, yeah, you’re right. That’s kind of the point. I just take issue with the idea that this makes either of them “dumb”. I think it just makes them human.

Never said the word dumb. But I do not consider Quentyn to be smart. He is not. Arianne...well, she has a lot of potential, as her father. But right now, I wouldn't say she's a good player. She'll need time.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Never said the word dumb. But I do not consider Quentyn to be smart. He is not. Arianne...well, she has a lot of potential, as her father. But right now, I wouldn't say she's a good player. She'll need time.

She's young. There is any good player currently that is that young? Dany has a lot of help (and dragons). Aegon is not exactly doing the thinking and planning. All the big boys out there are older than 40.

[naseridrl]

She's young. There is any good player currently that is that young? Dany has a lot of help (and dragons). Aegon is not exactly doing the thinking and planning. All the big boys out there are older than 40.

She's also had a distinct lack of tutelage which thankfully now seems to be over so maybe she'll make strides.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

ETA: JCRB, while the Lannisters have KL I think we will see her rarely, and when we do it will be from Cersei's POV too. But it will be for the reader to figure that out, since Cersei doesn't know Tyene so we'd just get a description (something like, a pretty fair haired septa talking earnestly with the Hs, or something). So we see bits and pieces of what she is doing, but we don't really know what she has found out and/or done

That I knew. I meant that, how can we know what her real plans could be. There won't be any pov telling of Tyene and Nym's secret meetings. We'll only have to guess.

[SeanF]

Well, not a fan of Doran here, but in his defense, neither of his children are very smart.

It doesn't matter whether they're smart or not. They're his heirs. They have to learn how to govern (and even if Arianne had become Queen of Westeros, that job is no sinecure).

What if Doran had died suddenly, and Arianne had to pick up the reins? She would have been completely clueless.

Keeping Arianne ignorant would only make sense if it were clear that she was so unfit to hold any position of power that she had to be disinherited.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Thinking about the Dornish Spouse Island. It's more of a Westeros Spouse Island. No one has wives! I guess they all die in childbirth -_-

[naseridrl]

Thinking about the Dornish Spouse Island. It's more of a Westeros Spouse Island. No one has wives! I guess they all die in childbirth -_-

I bet men love being husbands to heads of houses in Dorne they probably get to have a great time with their feet up enjoying a nice wafting from a fan and eating some blood oranges. Spouse Island is probably a very fun place to me, the relaxation capital of the known world.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Thinking about the Dornish Spouse Island. It's more of a Westeros Spouse Island. No one has wives! I guess they all die in childbirth -_-

It's not that bad, is it?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

It's not that bad, is it?

I bet men love being husbands to heads of houses in Dorne they probably get to have a great time with their feet up enjoying a nice wafting from a fan and eating some blood oranges. Spouse Island is probably a very fun place to me, the relaxation capital of the known world.

I think it'd be a reasonable world if Walder Frey's previous eight wives reigned as co-queens. That should float the Dornish boat. But definitely not Dorne only, especially not after Daeron and Mariah.

[naseridrl]

I think it'd be a reasonable world if Walder Frey's previous eight wives reigned as co-queens. That should float the Dornish boat. But definitely not Dorne only, especially not after Daeron and Mariah.

Everyone's welcome on the island paradise. But Dornish rules rule, it's a place for pleasure. :drool:

[Chebyshov]

Everyone's welcome on the island paradise. But Dornish rules rule, it's a place for pleasure. :drool:

Not to mention these are mostly political spouses who have probably been set aside for paramours. So they're bitter and likely randy.

And then there's Super Mellario who opted for the super conservative Norvos (well conservative for the upper class, at least). What an odd choice.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dornish Spouse Island is... Risa?

[Julia Martell]

Not to mention these are mostly political spouses who have probably been set aside for paramours. So they're bitter and likely randy.

And then there's Super Mellario who opted for the super conservative Norvos (well conservative for the upper class, at least). What an odd choice.

You see, Mellario was probably considered a crazy radical liberal in her youth because she only prayed ten times a day and sometimes sought out non-bear based entertainment. And everyone was like, “Oh, that crazy rebel running off to marry some foreigner. I always knew it would come to this. This is what always happenes when you eat seafood and red meat.”

And then she got to Dorne, and everyone was hairy and there were very few bears and Oberyn was probably hitting on her all the time, just as a matter of principle, and she discovered that, deep down, she was an old conservative fart after all.

And she has Drey now, so maybe it all worked out.

[HexMachina]

^:lmao:

I just dribbled coffee. I'm so glad I'm following this thread

[Ramsay's Penguins]

You see, Mellario was probably considered a crazy radical liberal in her youth because she only prayed ten times a day and sometimes sought out non-bear based entertainment. And everyone was like, “Oh, that crazy rebel running off to marry some foreigner. I always knew it would come to this. This is what always happenes when you eat seafood and red meat.”

And then she got to Dorne, and everyone was hairy and there were very few bears and Oberyn was probably hitting on her all the time, just as a matter of principle, and she discovered that, deep down, she was an old conservative fart after all.

And she has Drey now, so maybe it all worked out.

Well since Drey is there, perhaps she is making her own Spouse City? We also have Tregar Ormollen in Lys with Lynesse Hightower. That's how Westeros will overtake Essos!

Dornish Spouse Island is... Risa?

No. Tashirojima.

[illrede]

It doesn't matter whether they're smart or not. They're his heirs. They have to learn how to govern (and even if Arianne had become Queen of Westeros, that job is no sinecure).

What if Doran had died suddenly, and Arianne had to pick up the reins? She would have been completely clueless.

Keeping Arianne ignorant would only make sense if it were clear that she was so unfit to hold any position of power that she had to be disinherited.

I think Arianne just had the misfortune to be an adolescent in that one freak window of time in the history of the Martell dynasty where a single conversation could have gotten them all killed.

Absent Targaryen restoration plots she's just another mediocre firstborn offspring, which is a perfectly acceptable thing to be in her situation.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Arianne is definitely not the first and only case.

Robb... well, we know. Ned was a more caring father and yet, Robb was very unprepared to rule by himself and made quite questionable decisions because he let his dick do the thinking.

Jaime... he was fifteen, very much about to be a grown man to inherit and be able to rule of his own, and he let himself be convinced to set everything aside by the power of Cersex.

Edmure was just around having sex.

Sweetrobin, for god's sake...

Theon... gosh....

Willas is the only one decent, it seems.

[Chebyshov]

Willas...was too stupid not to stand up to his dad and got himself injured? IDK. "Decent" is an interesting adjective to use. I'd just say all of these people are tragically fallible in a way that plays into complicated familial dynamics.

I think Arianne just had the misfortune to be an adolescent in that one freak window of time in the history of the Martell dynasty where a single conversation could have gotten them all killed.

That's part of it, and also that Arianne read the letter to Quentyn at the start of her teenage years, so she was (reasonably) experiencing a lot of anger and pain towards her father. And this aligns right with when Super Mellario left. So yeah, early teenage years she acted out, causing her true nature (for instance being able to closely guard secrets, keeping her own council, etc.) was hidden from Doran. For his part, Doran probably didn't understand what was upsetting her and the more and more she acted out, the more uncomfortable he got, especially because her libido was involved. So things just escalated to the point where light treason was preferable (and seemed like a safer bet to her) to a conversation.

[naseridrl]

Has it ever been said anywhere how Dornish education works. We know they have a female treasurer and in the MUSH women have various high ranking positions. Does anyone here have an inkling of how it might work or their own headcanons about it?

Do people think education is more equal in Dorne given any one of your children can inherit down the line depending on what happens to those older than them. It's no use only training the eldest and then the sons because the sons might be after a few more girls. Are Septa's in Dorne expected to teach more than just how to be a good wife and say yes my Lord?

I wonder if any Dornish women have done as Sarella is going and disguised themselves and gone off to pursue more education and knowledge. (I know she's probably got more in mind than that but whatever she's doing thre she is also learning a well)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It would be my guess that noble dornishwomen are educated by maesters and such. Bastards of noble parents, raised by said parent, are in quite a good position to receive such education as well.