Daenerys is the Amethyst Empress Reborn

[Durran Durrandon]

I'm very careful now of all that is Valyrian. I believe both the Great Other and R’hllor are intruders gods, not good for the living. They fight their own war and use humans as their little pawns.

"On one side is R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror."

[snip]

Whatever the role and end story of each character, I believe ASoIaF must end with R'hllor and the GO out.

I think J. Michael Straczynski would like that ending a lot. I would too, except than I think another theme has been developed here. Like you said, the "true gods were the Maiden-Made-of-Light and the Lion of Night." I agree, they represent Yin and Yang in nature, opposite forces, but not opposing forces. But I don't see R'hllor and the Great Other as outsider gods, rather I see them as human ideas about the the Maiden and the Lion, corrupted by human fears. The R'hllorians worship the Maiden as R'hllor but hate the Lion as the Other, which is a corruption of the true religion. Similarly the Iron Born worship the Lion as the Drowned God, but hate the Maiden as the Storm God. By contrast, in the Stormland mythos, the Sea God (the Lion) and the Wind Godess (the Maiden) are married and are in harmony, with each other. They just hate Durran Godsgrief for steeling their daughter, which I think is an echo of the Blood Betrayal.

I think R'hllor is responsible for the Shadow Land and the ghost grass. I believe it is the place where the stone fell from the sky and is corrupting everything. The stone corrupted the brother of the Amethyst Empress and he murdered her. I would believe the stone was used to create the dragons. Or anyway before the stone, there was no dragons. So the Amethyst had no dragons. In fact, I would rather see Daenerys as the Bloodstone Emperor reborn. I would see him as the Father of the Dragons.

Did not Quaithe wanted Dany to go east and south? Euron visited all the places of evil similar to Ashai. The places where evil built up during the centuries before the fall of the Stone and the Great Empire, where R’hllor was probably already worshiped, was called upon. And it seems Daenerys will associate with him and the Red priests of R'hllor, with his fires. She will be the captain of the evil team, after all her deceptions and angers with Essos and Westeros.

I think Euron and possibly Qauithe know Daenerys is the Amethyst Empress and want to sacrifice her for her mojo. But I tend to agree with you about R'hllor, or the corrupted worship of R'hllor rather, being the sources of the evil surrounding the Shadow.

[LmL]

^ agree 100%

[Han Snow]

I admit I forgot half of what I wrote and didn't read it again. :P But the basic stuff still stands I think. A Dayne travels North becomes the LH, stops the WWs by marrying a high ranking COTF so they help mankind in turn. Their kid is Bran the Bulder (the original Lighbtringer -Schmendrik's essays were also wonderful and there is more than a few occasions where penis=sword and that whole Azor/Nissa story works as a story where the third COTF wife managed to endure the pregnancy and give birth to a living child = Lightbringer). I love Lucifer's essays but I think too much thought is being put into making all of the astrology to fit nicely back on Planetos. I don't equate LH with Azor Ahai 1 to 1, as Azor Ahai is clearly the Fire champion and an Essosi concept and could possibly end up evilish. But if Dayne/LH is a Dawnian he does represent that Fire side. It does work beautifully what you wrote of Daynes being Dawns and connected to the Great Empire of the Dawn. Maybe the most western settlement on the Planetos.

Anyways, ASOIAF and TWOIAF are big on the Hybrid/SPHINX side of things. Dragons are clearly hybrids of sorts (firewyrms and wyverns), Valyrians conducted a lot of cross breeding experiments according to TWOIAF if I'm not mistaken. Maester Aemon seems too dwell alot in his last days on the whole the Sphinx is the riddle not the riddler. And that is nothing but the talk of hybrids. (side note: I think Jon will end up being the TRUE Sphinx). And according to Yi Ti-ans a girl with a monkey tail saved the world and she definitely sounds like a hybrid of sorts.

... But I'm super tight with time at the moment, so I'll try to expand on this later. Tomorrow.

[The Amethyst Empress]

Oops busted!

[LmL]

Oops busted!

Haha the jig is up!

[DamnDirtyApe]

Some very interesting stuff here. I can only add that the idea of a "falling star" being an evil influence, as in the case of the Bloodstone Emperor (or as I call him the BSE, the Great Mad Cow of the Dawn) reminds me of HP Lovecraft's "The Colour out of Space", in which a meteorite lands on a family farm and emanates a strange substance/non-substance of an indescribable color that distorts all the living things that surround it in an expanding pattern. What with the speculation here about alien gods (that is to say, Rh'llor and the Great Other) and the desolation of the Ghost Grass and the Shadow, we might see the Bloodstone Emperor's meteorite as a similarly corrupting force.

[Durran Durrandon]

Oops busted!

We're on to you, Amethyst!

[BalerionTheCat]

I would think the FM who came to Westeros before the LN were refugees from the Great Empire. Because of the unrest following the blood betrayal. The reference to a Dayne following a star to Starfall has me thinking he was a member of the Amethyst household. And he was leading the exodus. The star would have been sent by the Maiden, leading her people to a place of safety.

The Valyrian with dragon lore must have stayed under the Stone influence. The Stone must have been used to breed dragons using wyvern from Sothoryos and wyrms from Valyria. Personally, I would find a direct descendant of the empress in the Dayne rather than in the Targaryen. And he/she would be free of the dragon's blood.

Concerning the star, AFAIK, there is nothing special in Starfall. Was the star so small they could just make a sword with it? Or is it somewhere else now? The only thing I can think of, is where BR and Bran are now. The caverns seem protected by very powerful magic. I don't know if the CotF greenseers by themselves could do that. Anyway, it seems the most sacred place of the Old Gods.

[Durran Durrandon]

And according to Yi Ti-ans a girl with a monkey tail saved the world and she definitely sounds like a hybrid of sorts.

... But I'm super tight with time at the moment, so I'll try to expand on this later. Tomorrow.

I always assume these are skin changer references.

I look forward to you comments.

[LmL]

I admit I forgot half of what I wrote and didn't read it again. :P But the basic stuff still stands I think. A Dayne travels North becomes the LH, stops the WWs by marrying a high ranking COTF so they help mankind in turn. Their kid is Bran the Bulder (the original Lighbtringer -Schmendrik's essays were also wonderful and there is more than a few occasions where penis=sword and that whole Azor/Nissa story works as a story where the third COTF wife managed to endure the pregnancy and give birth to a living child = Lightbringer). I love Lucifer's essays but I think too much thought is being put into making all of the astrology to fit nicely back on Planetos. I don't equate LH with Azor Ahai 1 to 1, as Azor Ahai is clearly the Fire champion and an Essosi concept and could possibly end up evilish. But if Dayne/LH is a Dawnian he does represent that Fire side. It does work beautifully what you wrote of Daynes being Dawns and connected to the Great Empire of the Dawn. Maybe the most western settlement on the Planetos.

First of all thanks very much and I’m glad you enjoyed the essays. I’m not sure what you mean by “too much thought” though - a lot of thought went in to the worlbuilding here, and it’s going to take a lot of thought and some venturing out on a limb to uncover it all. My essay is full of textual corroborations for this very reason - it’s a bold hypothesis. It’s main strokes, however, corroborated in detail in story after story, from the Sphinx apple-spilling to the Twin sword splitting to the Brienne throng boulders off the cliff at the pursuing boat to Sam’s journey into Oldtown and many others.. It seems a little bit like a casual dismissal for you to just say “too much thought is being put into making all of the astrology to fit nicely..” without showing how my corroborations don’t stand up, or proposing a different theory rooted in textual evidence.

On the other hand, your theory about the Dayne’s and the last hero included no textual quotations or symbolic corroborations. I think that’s why people labelled it fan fiction, because you didn’t take the time to pull quotes from the text to support it. There are a lot of interesting and potentially valid ideas in there, so I’m not necessarily dismissing any of it - I like several of your ideas. It just seems weird to casually dismiss the detailed textual corroboration of my theory, and then launch out on a fairly speculative theory without providing textual support. I’m in no way offended or anything, not in the slightest - I just think it’s fair to point that out. I’ve put a lot of work into researching all the aspects of my theory, both within ASOIAF and without, and I’ve dismissed many initial hypothesiseses (what the hell is the plural of ‘hypothesis’ anyway?) and ideas. I showed it to several people and let them hack at it before I posted it, in order to make it more solid. The theory that remains after running that gauntlet is what I put forward, corroborated by quotes form the text and interpretation of symbols. I don’t think it can be easily dismissed without showing some alternate interpretation for all the evidence I have presented, and any other hypothesis that wants to take its place should, I feel, have significant textual support.

Anyways, ASOIAF and TWOIAF are big on the Hybrid/SPHINX side of things. Dragons are clearly hybrids of sorts (firewyrms and wyverns), Valyrians conducted a lot of cross breeding experiments according to TWOIAF if I'm not mistaken. Maester Aemon seems too dwell alot in his last days on the whole the Sphinx is the riddle not the riddler. And that is nothing but the talk of hybrids. (side note: I think Jon will end up being the TRUE Sphinx). And according to Yi Ti-ans a girl with a monkey tail saved the world and she definitely sounds like a hybrid of sorts.

... But I'm super tight with time at the moment, so I'll try to expand on this later. Tomorrow.

I have to disagree. They may be hybrids, or they may be related species. Just because they have trials of firewyrms and wyverns does not mean that they came from crossbreeding of such. It’s definitely possible, but not conclusive any means.

As for the Sphinx and the riddle, you should read back over the last 4or 5 pages of the second Astronomy of Planets thread.. several folks on there and I made some real breakthroughs on that subject. You’ll probably find it quite interesting.

[LmL]

Some very interesting stuff here. I can only add that the idea of a "falling star" being an evil influence, as in the case of the Bloodstone Emperor (or as I call him the BSE, the Great Mad Cow of the Dawn) reminds me of HP Lovecraft's "The Colour out of Space", in which a meteorite lands on a family farm and emanates a strange substance/non-substance of an indescribable color that distorts all the living things that surround it in an expanding pattern. What with the speculation here about alien gods (that is to say, Rh'llor and the Great Other) and the desolation of the Ghost Grass and the Shadow, we might see the Bloodstone Emperor's meteorite as a similarly corrupting force.

Agree with this 100%. The greasy stone (which I *think* is the bloodstone of the second moon, but the jury is out still..) clearly exhibits some sort of magical radioactive fallout type effects, from Yeen to Asshai and even the Isle of Toads and Seastone Chair. It seems proportional to the amount of greasy stone that is present. Given the huge Lovecraft influence (Church of SW taken directly), it seems overwhelmingly likely that this is what George was thinking of with the bloodstone and the Bloodstone emperor.

[Durran Durrandon]

Some very interesting stuff here. I can only add that the idea of a "falling star" being an evil influence, as in the case of the Bloodstone Emperor (or as I call him the BSE, the Great Mad Cow of the Dawn) reminds me of HP Lovecraft's "The Colour out of Space", in which a meteorite lands on a family farm and emanates a strange substance/non-substance of an indescribable color that distorts all the living things that surround it in an expanding pattern. What with the speculation here about alien gods (that is to say, Rh'llor and the Great Other) and the desolation of the Ghost Grass and the Shadow, we might see the Bloodstone Emperor's meteorite as a similarly corrupting force.

Lovecraft's fingerprints are all over the world book. I know LmL likes the moon being shattered and it's stones falling to Planetos and being an evil influence, giving rise the Mad Cow of the Dawn. I definitely see the advantages in that model. I am more inclined to see the comet smashing the moon to be the karmic fallout of the sacrifice of the Amethyst Empress, and the worship of the stone fallen to Planetos occurring after that. Either way, I am open to the idea that the Shadow is being caused by a big light draining meteor chunk that had a definite toxic influence.

[White Ravens]

sorry but what are the sacrifices needed to restore the season?

First, you quench a magically forged blade in water. When that doesn't work, you magically forge a second blade and labour a long time over it before quenching it in the heart of a lion. When that still doesn't work you labour even longer on a third blade and quench it by running it through the heart of your beloved wife. Lightbringer 101. :)

When Sam tells Jon that he read passages in the Night's Watch library referring to Dragonsteel they speculate that it might be an old name for Valyrian steel. We also have heard legends about the second moon coming too close to the sun and splitting, with the result of a million dragons coming to earth. I agree with the idea that these dragons were meteors/meteorites. We also know that the legendary sword Dawn, of house Dayne, was forged from the heart of a meteorite so it is almost certainly Dragonsteel in my mind. Perhaps Dawn is the only true Dragonsteel blade and served as a prototype for Valyrian steel? The history of Valyria is dark and involves much slave labour so it wouldn't surprise me if the production of Valyrian steel involved magic that drew from the blood of many slaves.

[Durran Durrandon]

I would think the FM who came to Westeros before the LN were refugees from the Great Empire. Because of the unrest following the blood betrayal. The reference to a Dayne following a star to Starfall has me thinking he was a member of the Amethyst household. And he was leading the exodus. The star would have been sent by the Maiden, leading her people to a place of safety.

Something similar nags at me. Howevet, the First Men came to Westetos before the Long Night. Clearly a contingent of Dawns followed that meteorite to Starfall and founded the Daynes. But the Targaryans had the prophecy of TPtwP, and the Ghost of Highheart's prophecy supports this, so I believe they are the direct descendents of Amethyst Empress. The Dawns who traveled to Dorne were either am offshoot of the Amethyst Empress' line or more likely led by BSE on his path yo become the Last Hero.

[LmL]

I would think the FM who came to Westeros before the LN were refugees from the Great Empire. Because of the unrest following the blood betrayal. The reference to a Dayne following a star to Starfall has me thinking he was a member of the Amethyst household. And he was leading the exodus. The star would have been sent by the Maiden, leading her people to a place of safety.

​That’s a good possibility. I tend to think the Great Empire already had a toehold in Westerns pre-LN, building the Hightower Fort (fused stone = dragon fire + sorcery), but there is certainly tons and tons of evidence for a general westward migration out of eastern Essos following the LN (read the section on the Bones mountains), so perhaps the Dayne’s are one such. I do tend to identify them with the Amethyst Empress’ lineage.

​The star being sent by the Maiden is a VERY close match to the story of Ser Galladon of Morne that I quoted at the end of Part 2 of the Astronomy of Planetos thread. The maiden herself “lost her heart” to Ser Galladon, and gave him the magic sword “The Just Maid.” The just maid is a reference to Virgo holding the scales of Libra, so it’s likely the Dawn meteorite was seen to be originating from that constellation. One other possibility is that the Dawn meteor didn’t land at Starfall, but rather the Dayne ancestors took the story of a sword made form a meteor with them and then founded Starfall... thousands of years later, people thin the star fell there. Not likely, just a possibility to keep in mind.

​I DO NOT think Dawn is made from the bloodstone. No way. Makes no sense. There was a sword made from the bloodstone, and it “drinks the sun’s light” just like the million dragons meteor shower and the mineral heliotrope (bloodstone) itself...

The Valyrian with dragon lore must have stayed under the Stone influence. The Stone must have been used to breed dragons using wyvern from Sothoryos and wyrms from Valyria. Personally, I would find a direct descendant of the empress in the Dayne rather than in the Targaryen. And he/she would be free of the dragon's blood.

Agree that the Valerians were using the bloodstone magic of the BSE - that’s a good insight. I was planning on revealing that in the future, so congrats on catching it. I don’t think dragons are the result of crossbreeding, however, although I’m not close to positive. I think the genetic experiments were introducing dragon or reptilian blood to people so as to allow for dragon bonding.

Dany has some Dayne blood going back 3 generations I believe, fwiw.

Concerning the star, AFAIK, there is nothing special in Starfall. Was the star so small they could just make a sword with it? Or is it somewhere else now? The only thing I can think of, is where BR and Bran are now. The caverns seem protected by very powerful magic. I don't know if the CotF greenseers by themselves could do that. Anyway, it seems the most sacred place of the Old Gods.

​It would have had to have been a fairly small meteor, or else Starfall would be a crater and not an island. I’m thinking it was a piece of the original comet that broke off before it rounded the sun and split in half. Smaller fragments of comets break off all the time as the ice breaks up and melts and releases meteoroids. Many of these are chiefly iron, sometimes with a bit of nickel or phosphorus. It’s very likely the Dawn meteor contained such a ready-made alloy, so all they had to do was put that meteor in the forge and hammer it. Just in case anyone doesn’t know, steel is made by adding a small amount carbon to iron, frequently in the form of nickel. A very tiny amount of phosphorus can make the steel sharper and harder, but a tad more brittle. I mention this because the mythological symbolic import of phosphorus is highly applicable to what we are discussing.

[Durran Durrandon]

When Sam tells Jon that he read passages in the Night's Watch library referring to Dragonsteel they speculate that it might be an old name for Valyrian steel. We also have heard legends about the second moon coming too close to the sun and splitting, with the result of a million dragons coming to earth. I agree with the idea that these dragons were meteors/meteorites. We also know that the legendary sword Dawn, of house Dayne, was forged from the heart of a meteorite so it is almost certainly Dragonsteel in my mind.

That is my thinking precisely.

[LmL]

Lovecraft's fingerprints are all over the world book. I know LmL likes the moon being shattered and it's stones falling to Planetos and being an evil influence, giving rise the Mad Cow of the Dawn. I definitely see the advantages in that model. I am more inclined to see the comet smashing the moon to be the karmic fallout of the sacrifice of the Amethyst Empress, and the worship of the stone fallen to Planetos occurring after that. Either way, I am open to the idea that the Shadow is being caused by a big light draining meteor chunk that had a definite toxic influence.

Your slightly revised order of events is totally plausible, just wanted to say that.

[MoIaF]

A very interesting theory.

I had also noticed the similarity with the jeweled emperors and the ghost that had incurred Dany onward in her fevered dream to wake the dragons. I think Dany waking the dragons is extremely important in this scenario.

Also, it seemed to me that the Bloodstone Emperors betrayal of the Amethyst Empress is eerily similar to that of the events of the first Dance of Dragons, where a brother usurp his sisters crown (and bloodshed ensued). It is my belief as well that the repercussion from the first Dance (the eventual extinction of the dragons) precipitated the coming of the Long Night (the current one).

[LmL]

A very interesting theory.

I had also noticed the similarity with the jeweled emperors and the ghost that had incurred Dany onward in her fevered dream to wake the dragons. I think Dany waking the dragons is extremely important in this scenario.

Also, it seemed to me that the Bloodstone Emperors betrayal of the Amethyst Empress is eerily similar to that of the events of the first Dance of Dragons, where a brother usurp his sisters crown (and bloodshed ensued). It is my belief as well that the repercussion from the first Dance (the eventual extinction of the dragons) precipitated the coming of the Long Night (the current one).

Dracanearys, you’re on to something there! Someone should have seen that, in retrospect. *dashes off to re-read TPATQ to look for astronomy*

[MoIaF]

Dracanearys, you’re on to something there! Someone should have seen that, in retrospect. *dashes off to re-read TPATQ to look for astronomy*

It's one of the first things that came to mind when I read the legend.

It also fits in with the cyclical nature of things in ASOIAF - themes seems to repeat themselves in different ways. It's never quite the same but the similarities are always there.