Daenerys is the Amethyst Empress Reborn

[Durran Durrandon]

Excellent catch.

The worship of a huge black spherical stone reminds me of the worship of Elagalabus.

Nice! This is totally new to me. Elagalabus

[LmL]

Thanks! You're too kind!

I've been doing a little more research on the Hightowers and found a interesting thing in their wiki page:

"The Hightowers were also one of the first great lords to accept the Faith of the Seven and thus gave their patronage to the establishment of the office of High Septon and the building of the Starry Sept as the center of the Faith."

Obviously the word " Starry" caught my eye even though it's a fitting name to give to a Sept. Maybe it has a double meaning? :dunno:

Also the Hightower sigil, the tower, and it's location in the city of knowleged remind me of the Tower of Babel and the funny thing is that the Tower of Babel seems to have inspired a tarot card, the Tower, which sometimes is depicted as "a burning tower being struck by lightning or fire from the sky" .

So this probably doesn't mean anything but I liked doing the research so here it is! :laugh:

The burning tower motif pops up a lot in the proximity of Lightbringer symbolism, and I'm still working on figuring out what it means exactly. I had forgotten about the tarot card "The Tower," I should look into that.

Noting that the tower was struck by lightning, it makes me think of the Grey King tricking to Storm God into striking a tree with lightning and setting it ablaze. Burning tower, burning tree, very similar. At the root level it may simply refer to the descent of a flaming meteor, or a volcanic eruption (potentially set off by an impact).

But as for the Hightowers... Yeah don't trust them.

[LmL]

I don't know Euron or Mirri but I think Marwyn and Quaithe are definitely worshippers of Starry Wisdom. And they are bad news. Marwyn is probably using the unwanted pregnancies of the whores he deals with as sacrifices in dark temples. That is how he should have lit the glass candle.

yeah I just caught the reference to "sacrificing to queer gods at dockside fishermans temples" thing - COSW sighting. And yes, Quaithe too, unless she's just a dupe of the COSW... I'm guessing true believer though. And maybe, she's Sheirra Seastar.

[Aslerys]

The burning tower motif pops up a lot in the proximity of Lightbringer symbolism, and I'm still working on figuring out what it means exactly. I had forgotten about the tarot card "The Tower," I should look into that.

Noting that the tower was struck by lightning, it makes me think of the Grey King tricking to Storm God into striking a tree with lightning and setting it ablaze. Burning tower, burning tree, very similar. At the root level it may simply refer to the descent of a flaming meteor, or a volcanic eruption (potentially set off by an impact).

But as for the Hightowers... Yeah don't trust them.

I actually had a nice impression of House Hightower because of the White Bull but after seeing what they did in the Dance of the dragons war I kind of changed my mind!

And the Tarot Tower card can also be depicted as a burning tree striked by lightning so you're you are onto something!

[LmL]

Sweet. Another Grey King puzzle piece. :)

[BalerionTheCat]

I'm sure Euron is in the Evil team (I don't like the guy). But where exactly, I'm not sure. I believe he is playing his own game.

Quaithe is likely in the COSW, as are the Hightower. How the COSW stands wrt the Red priests of R'hllor? I'm not sure. But I'm sure the COSW is serving or working for the restoration of the BSE. For me, the BSE is Daenerys. Another evidence is Quaithe trying to convince & influence her.

I would believe the Red priests are more directly serving R'hllor, like when doing his war against the Other. The would have Daenerys as their tool. While the COSW would rather try to rebuild the old empire and control mankind. But I'm still wondering why GRRM created these two factions.

And you must not forget the Ice and the CotF. The Fire is just half the story.

[Pielord]

As i said earlier i think Baratheons make a good fit for BSE's. Robert usurping a purple eyed dynasty, Stannis casting down his gods and getting onto the blood magic sacrifice train..

[BalerionTheCat]

As i said earlier i think Baratheons make a good fit for BSE's. Robert usurping a purple eyed dynasty, Stannis casting down his gods and getting onto the blood magic sacrifice train..

I know the Baratheons have Targaryen ancestors, but too weak blood link IMHO. And Melisandre believing Stannis is AAR is plainly wrong.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Thanks! You're too kind!

I've been doing a little more research on the Hightowers and found a interesting thing in their wiki page:

"The Hightowers were also one of the first great lords to accept the Faith of the Seven and thus gave their patronage to the establishment of the office of High Septon and the building of the Starry Sept as the center of the Faith."

Obviously the word " Starry" caught my eye even though it's a fitting name to give to a Sept. Maybe it has a double meaning? :dunno:

Also the Hightower sigil, the tower, and it's location in the city of knowledge remind me of the Tower of Babel and the funny thing is that the Tower of Babel seems to have inspired a tarot card, the Tower, which sometimes is depicted as "a burning tower being struck by lightning or fire from the sky" .

So this probably doesn't mean anything but I liked doing the research so here it is! :laugh:

So maybe the Starry Sept is a sleeper cell for the Church of Starry Wisdom? The Sept itself is built of black marble--perhaps as tribute to the ancient black stone? This would make a lot of sense if the Hightowers are secret Starry Wisdom cultists.

If this is true it seems likely to be revealed in WoW. There is quite a bit of setup for both Hightowers and Oldtown occult stuff at the end of Feast.

Man, I really want Quaithe to be Ashara Dayne, and basically good. No takers around here for star mask being a hint towards Starfall rather then CoSW? :-)

I'm super into this Dany = Amethyst Empress theory. The only thing I'm not liking about the Amethyst Empress vs. BSE/CoSW setup is that it seems to be skating awfully close to "good vs. evil," which would be an odd sort of endgame for this series.

Although kinslaying has been presented as always-evil and always provoking evil consequences, and the BSE casting down the AE would count as kinslaying. Interesting if kinslaying is what started the whole Long Night/seasonal imbalance/black magic stuff. That would give even more weight to the "no man is so accursed as a kinslayer" adage.

[Whitering]

Very cool, thanks.

[BalerionTheCat]

You see, the family farm that the meteorite landed on in "The Colour out of Space"? The family that lived there were called the Gardners.

Yes, I also believe some of the legendary heroes were descendants of the Great emperors. I even believe their longevity was real. Like Númenor, falling after the corruption if its rulers. Its long lived inhabitants fleeing to other lands, and resembling half-gods.

I never really loved Cthulhu & Lovecraft. But the stone fallen from space, providing a link to some evil gods from another universe is exactly what I had in mind. :)

[Aslerys]

So maybe the Starry Sept is a sleeper cell for the Church of Starry Wisdom? The Sept itself is built of black marble--perhaps as tribute to the ancient black stone? This would make a lot of sense if the Hightowers are secret Starry Wisdom cultists.

If this is true it seems likely to be revealed in WoW. There is quite a bit of setup for both Hightowers and Oldtown occult stuff at the end of Feast.

Man, I really want Quaithe to be Ashara Dayne, and basically good. No takers around here for star mask being a hint towards Starfall rather then CoSW? :-)

I'm super into this Dany = Amethyst Empress theory. The only thing I'm not liking about the Amethyst Empress vs. BSE/CoSW setup is that it seems to be skating awfully close to "good vs. evil," which would be an odd sort of endgame for this series.

Although kinslaying has been presented as always-evil and always provoking evil consequences, and the BSE casting down the AE would count as kinslaying. Interesting if kinslaying is what started the whole Long Night/seasonal imbalance/black magic stuff. That would give even more weight to the "no man is so accursed as a kinslayer" adage.

Well, that's what I thought when I saw that the Sept name was Starry.

I agree with you about kinslaying it might have bigger consequences than a curse.

[LmL]

^^^ I generally agree with the above line of thinking. The cause of the LN was the original discord, and it's got to be healed to bring things back into balance. There are several ways this could happen, so even if we all follow all the clues and symbols, George will still surprise us. :)

[BalerionTheCat]

I'm still unsure if the Lion of Night and the GO are the same god or are totally different gods.

If they are the same, or different faces of the same god, then the Others are the "good guys", trying to eliminate R'hllor who is the evil intruder. R'hllor is the only one intruding. The Lion is a "local" god. I'm assuming R'hllor is evil and intruding because of the Stone Fell from the Sky. Because everything was fine during the God-on-Earth time. The Lion is evidently trying to eliminate evil. He behaves like the Father, punishing the wicked:

the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men

But the Lion was also a menace in the millennia before the LN:

some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men

The Forts purpose seems to protect men from invading forces from the Grey Wastes, enemies comparable(?) to the Others. And this, much before the Stone and R'hllor strongest presence. This would give credit to the idea that the Lion is the GO.

But I still feel R'hllor and the GO are personal enemies. In fact, I wonder why the dragons would return if the Lion, not the GO, was increasing his presence (assuming the Lion is local, R'hllor is not). Why the Lion would return if the dragons and R'hllor were fading. It seems to me, the dragons return because the Others are returning. I would wonder what is the triggering event that push the Others and R'hllor to rise again. The comet? If so, it is an exterior force.

The Lion and the GO have common powers: night, terror. Like the Maiden and R'hllor: light. But are they all local? My guess is no. The GO and R'hllor are foreign, wanting to change totally the nature of this world.

Westeros has long Winters and Summers intervals. That is the struggle between R'hllor and the GO. But no Night, yet. That will be the Lion's work, I believe. And I also believe the story will end with normal seasons. That would need the total removal of the GO and R'hllor. Thus, different gods. But just a guess.

[Durran Durrandon]

They are all just human personification of yin and yang magic. The line about the Five Forts being built by the Pearl Emperor to keep out the snarks and grumpkins in the Grey Wastes caught me as odd when I first read it too, but I think it just means that there is some unhealthy and unbalanced yin stuff out there.

[barristan-b]

I'm still unsure if the Lion of Night and the GO are the same god or are totally different gods.

If they are the same, or different faces of the same god, then the Others are the "good guys", trying to eliminate R'hllor who is the evil intruder. R'hllor is the only one intruding. The Lion is a "local" god. I'm assuming R'hllor is evil and intruding because of the Stone Fell from the Sky. Because everything was fine during the God-on-Earth time. The Lion is evidently trying to eliminate evil. He behaves like the Father, punishing the wicked:

the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men

But the Lion was also a menace in the millennia before the LN:

some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men

The Forts purpose seems to protect men from invading forces from the Grey Wastes, enemies comparable(?) to the Others. And this, much before the Stone and R'hllor strongest presence. This would give credit to the idea that the Lion is the GO.

But I still feel R'hllor and the GO are personal enemies. In fact, I wonder why the dragons would return if the Lion, not the GO, was increasing his presence (assuming the Lion is local, R'hllor is not). Why the Lion would return if the dragons and R'hllor were fading. It seems to me, the dragons return because the Others are returning. I would wonder what is the triggering event that push the Others and R'hllor to rise again. The comet? If so, it is an exterior force.

The Lion and the GO have common powers: night, terror. Like the Maiden and R'hllor: light. But are they all local? My guess is no. The GO and R'hllor are foreign, wanting to change totally the nature of this world.

Westeros has long Winters and Summers intervals. That is the struggle between R'hllor and the GO. But no Night, yet. That will be the Lion's work, I believe. And I also believe the story will end with normal seasons. That would need the total removal of the GO and R'hllor. Thus, different gods. But just a guess.

Just my perspective but I think you're looking at the gods from too literal of a standpoint. I think the nature behind each source of magic is what defines the "gods" in ASOIAF. We get the best glimpse of this as we learn the old gods may in fact just be the resonance of greenseers, BR, and Bran.

It will be interesting to see if we learn what lies beyond the facade of the various gods (for lack of a better terminology).

An idea I have is that the CosW is behind R'hllor and use a lot of the priests as puppets. Some know and are a part of the CoSW, some don't (Mel maybe)

A good deal of myth holds facets of real happenings with story placed on top of it, I guess it just depends on how for each of us are willing to go in the interpretation.

[LmL]

I'm still unsure if the Lion of Night and the GO are the same god or are totally different gods.

If they are the same, or different faces of the same god, then the Others are the "good guys", trying to eliminate R'hllor who is the evil intruder. R'hllor is the only one intruding. The Lion is a "local" god. I'm assuming R'hllor is evil and intruding because of the Stone Fell from the Sky. Because everything was fine during the God-on-Earth time. The Lion is evidently trying to eliminate evil. He behaves like the Father, punishing the wicked:

the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men

But the Lion was also a menace in the millennia before the LN:

some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men

The Forts purpose seems to protect men from invading forces from the Grey Wastes, enemies comparable(?) to the Others. And this, much before the Stone and R'hllor strongest presence. This would give credit to the idea that the Lion is the GO.

But I still feel R'hllor and the GO are personal enemies. In fact, I wonder why the dragons would return if the Lion, not the GO, was increasing his presence (assuming the Lion is local, R'hllor is not). Why the Lion would return if the dragons and R'hllor were fading. It seems to me, the dragons return because the Others are returning. I would wonder what is the triggering event that push the Others and R'hllor to rise again. The comet? If so, it is an exterior force.

The Lion and the GO have common powers: night, terror. Like the Maiden and R'hllor: light. But are they all local? My guess is no. The GO and R'hllor are foreign, wanting to change totally the nature of this world.

Westeros has long Winters and Summers intervals. That is the struggle between R'hllor and the GO. But no Night, yet. That will be the Lion's work, I believe. And I also believe the story will end with normal seasons. That would need the total removal of the GO and R'hllor. Thus, different gods. But just a guess.

Ok, so about the "Great Other" and R'hllor. Sometimes they call him the "Lord of Light," and other times the Lord of Fire and Shadow. As I have discussed here and elsewhere, the fire magic of R'hllor is far more shadow than light. They come from a place where the sun doesn't even fully "come out," a place called "Asshai by the Shadow." Their priests seem to have more shadow magic than anything having to do with light. In short, R'hllor is NOT the lord of "light," and the idea that he is is nothing but a PR job to whitewash Azor Ahai pushed by the red priests and most likely started by the Church of Starry Wisdom. They told us Azor Ahai returned "light and love" to the world, but nothing we have seen connected to the priests of R'hllor has anything to do with either.

The point being, if R'hllor is not representing "light and love," he's representing darkness and death. As such, he's not really "opposite" of the Great Other, if such even exists. The R'hllor priests don't worship the sun, they worship the night fires. They worship the dark fire magic legacy of the bloodstone moon, not the bright fire magic of the sun.

Celestially speaking, the 'Great Other' is space. Cold and dark, and punctuated by blue stars. It's the opposite of the sun, which is bright and hot. The two moons represent duality - ice moon that is bright, and a fire moon that is not. R'hllorism is tied to the dark fire moon (which was destroyed and reigned down on the planet), not the sun.

The Others that we have seen, on the other hand, are actually quite luminous, reflecting the moonlight. They're dual natured, described as "pale shadows." Shadows are usually dark, but here they are pale, so this is a perfect opposite to fire (usually bright) that is dark. They reflect the nature of the ice moon.

This layered dualism is what Melisandre doesn't understand. Her thinking is very simplistic, black-and-white. Fire is light and life, and ice is cold and dead. Of course the yin-yang concept has been well discussed here at this point, so we know you need both cold empty space and the blazing hot sun for life as we know it to exist. Furthermore, it seems that on Planetos, we need the dark fire moon and the bright ice moon to keep the magical forces in balance... The destruction of the fire moon threw off the balance.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Dude!! Amazing OP!

I love it when new theories, that make sense, show up like this :)

The Amythest Empress....I like the sound of that. I like how it is so ancient, and it would be a rebirth that could actually end the long night.

Personally I have always thought that most of the well-circulated prophecies convene around Jon. That none of them fit very well with Dany, she needed something more historic, more meaningful. Not just to hatch the dragons and take the IT, but to somehow stop this cycle of 'winters'.

Anyway great work and thanks for sharing :)

[Durran Durrandon]

Dude!! Amazing OP!

I love it when new theories, that make sense, show up like this :)

The Amythest Empress....I like the sound of that. I like how it is so ancient, and it would be a rebirth that could actually end the long night.

Personally I have always thought that most of the well-circulated prophecies convene around Jon. That none of them fit very well with Dany, she needed something more historic, more meaningful. Not just to hatch the dragons and take the IT, but to somehow stop this cycle of 'winters'.

Anyway great work and thanks for sharing :)

Thanks, so much, and to everyone who has chimed in with positive feedback and helpful critiques, your feedback is highly gratifying.

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

This is good stuff. I need to read the world book again. It's always interesting to me when incredibly ancient stuff lines up with mythology from different cultures. Like Gilgamesh and Great Yu.