Heresy 160

[markg171]

I remember few threads ago there were some discussions about how would Rhaeghar travel somewhere south after Lyanna's abduction and no one would recognize him. I'd say same applies to North. If you are not travelling with all your court like Robert did, you may be treated as usual knight.

I'd imagine though that there's far less Valyrians in the north than there is in the south. So when one passes through, people would probably take note.

[Black Crow]

I remember few threads ago there were some discussions about how would Rhaeghar travel somewhere south after Lyanna's abduction and no one would recognize him. I'd say same applies to North. If you are not travelling with all your court like Robert did, you may be treated as usual knight.

Ah but the difference here is that after Lyanna's abduction, Rhaegar disappeared. We have no indication at all of a similar disappearance that would allow him to visit the Wall unnoticed - and no hint at all from Aemon that he was ever visited.

[Black Crow]

I think Gared and the direwolf were simply plot devices GRRM needed for the first chapter. Gared sets up the threat and warning of Others for the Starks (as well as setting FM apart from latter day men, culturally). The direwolf sets up warghood for the children, serves to foreshadow Ned's death by Stag, and additionally, hints at the death of the snow-wolf's mother.

Given that GRRM's reckons the "vision" which started all this off was some guys in mediaeval dress kneeling to look at something in the snow [or words to that effect] its very likely that initially at least he never thought it through. Nevertheless there are mysteries, which are probably never to be revealed in text, which we can seek an explanation for in the context of what else is going on north of the Wall.

How did Gared escape and why was he taken so close to a dead direwolf whose pups were meant for the children of Winterfell. Yes there's the symbolism of the antler and the Baratheons noted by Catelyn, but again if its not simply co-incidence who set it up and why? An antler-bone dagger wielded by Gared answers a lot of these questions, especially as Val turns up with one later.

[TheSmallOther]

Ah but the difference here is that after Lyanna's abduction, Rhaegar disappeared. We have no indication at all of a similar disappearance that would allow him to visit the Wall unnoticed - and no hint at all from Aemon that he was ever visited.

Indeed. Frankly, I do not see much point for Rhaegar to visit Aemon. But if he wanted to, that dissapearance period is exactly the time he had a chance to go North. "Far away", said KG and we still don't know if it was Isle of Faces, North, Dorne, who_knows_where.

[Eira Seren]

On the subject of those North of the Wall and where they might try and breach the confines of the wall and where they might head; and to also overlay discussion earlier today about Garen and the mother direwolf....

...and no Flagons...this is not a "hanging participle" as I'm going to finish my thought.

I think comments today about the size of the North and the Godswood being possible reasoning on where and how "people" might hide once they cross the Wall makes perfect sense to me. As for Garen...I go back and forth on this and I can't bring myself to the idea that he was anyway involved with the transport of mother direwolf across the wall. He was distraught and overwhelmed by his encounter with the WW's. I suppose the counter arghument is if someone is in that condition then how could they physically and mentally find away around the Wall. Maybe by chance, by way of Eastwatch and then wandered his way to Winterfell. This is a blank in my logic.

Getting back to the mother direwolf. My personal preference (with no textual evidence) is that Coldhands guided her across the "magical boundary" and then gutted her with an elk stine. I know, I know, this doesn't explain why Coldhands "can't" pass the Black Gate; but how else to explain how a mother direwolf would cross across that plain? Perhaps a better question would be "if" the mother direwolf ever passed the Wall or not? Maybe she was always South of the Wall.

I prefer CH over Gared in terms of how mother direwolf ends up South. Regardless, I'm not sure how you get a pregnant Direwolf across the "magical hinge".

Hang the worry over hanging participles :P Emily Dickinson liked dashes, was a stylistic choice. . . (except when I'm cutting out the beginning or ending of a quote)

Have said this before, but am not sure without drugging, trapping or warging, or killing and dragging the carcass, how one would get a direwolf to do anything it didn't make up its own mind to do. Very stubborn and independent sorts, if wolves and malamutes and huskies are any indication.

And can imagine that the impact of getting jumped on by something that powerful and solid could knock someone the size of the Mountain flying. Not to mention that whoever was involved apparently did not bleed out from the torn-off limbs that were surely lying nearby.

One of the best arguments in favor of Gared accompanying the direwolf south is that the white walkers surely did not simply let Gared go.

Though was he in the company of the direwolf??

So, I couldn't find more information about this. People here think Gared was sent to WF by something and in return he had to kill the direwolf? I don't want to step on any toes because I'm still new to you folks, but it kind of sounds like something my 7 yr old cousin would blurt out to give an explanation for the whole thing. I mean why send him to WF to get caught? They didn't see him, he was hiding in the tree.

I know this won't be popular, and I enjoy all the theories, but I don't believe Martin has given a second thought to Gared how he/wolf crossed the wall, stag fight vs dagger, where the stag body was (possible in a fight it twisted off, stag survives and runs off once wolf dead. The fact there was a body on the show, not in book tells me it's minutiae that doesn't matter or won't be addressed).

I don't know...I had the same questions about how Gareth and wolfmama got past the wall, but I thought I was overanalyzing at the time.

*** I do read stuff even when I don't join in, though, and I feel like you guys are all Ph.D intelligent (like Ph.D in asoiaf lore :)) because it's amazing how you guys engage in discourse and rattle off quotes like Rainman plays cards. I've read the series I think 3-4 times w/the exception of Dance, and I feel like a noob with you lot!

Nah. . . we're all just ASOIAF fans wearing underwear. At least, hopefully. Mine don't have any action figures printed on them, though.

I would dearly love to believe that Gared's fervent prayers up the tree, and right before Royce gets hold of him, might have something to do with his miraculous escape (only to be beheaded). But that seems like the old gods are somehow beings with real, invested power. And am not sure this is the kind of series where that kind of intervention is verifiable.

Mel seems to think so. Mel doesn't always get it right, either.

But still I do wonder if perhaps Gared was let go. To what end? Seems like having Ned snick his head off might be right along the lines of a blood sacrifice? And then, as has been noted by others here, Ned cleans his sword in the godswood pool. . .

[Black Crow]

Indeed. Frankly, I do not see much point for Rhaegar to visit Aemon. But if he wanted to, that dissapearance period is exactly the time he had a chance to go North. "Far away", said KG and we still don't know if it was Isle of Faces, North, Dorne, who_knows_where.

I rather think a mysterious visitor to Castle Black wuld have been noticed - its not as if they get many :cool4:

[Black Crow]

...Have said this before, but am not sure without drugging, trapping or warging, or killing and dragging the carcass, how one would get a direwolf to do anything it didn't make up its own mind to do. Very stubborn and independent sorts, if wolves and malamutes and huskies are any indication.

Though was he in the company of the direwolf??

...But still I do wonder if perhaps Gared was let go. To what end? Seems like having Ned snick his head off might be right along the lines of a blood sacrifice? And then, as has been noted by others here, Ned cleans his sword in the godswood pool. . .

Well given all the manipulation going on I'd be rather hesitant to say who was leading who

[JNR]

If she was always South of the Wall, how do you get Direwolf pregnant?

I think we all know the answer to that. We may not wish to believe it, but Gared, as a man of the Watch... has needs. Unfulfilled needs.

This would also be why he killed her. Not all men respond well to being told "you're going to be a father" in a series of barks. Enlisting a deer as assassin was his next move. I'd say Ned served Gared right.

Re the relative population of the North and South, this SSM seems to put the matter beyond debate.

The Vale alone has about the same fighting strength, and thus overall population, as the entire North.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On the subject of those North of the Wall and where they might try and breach the confines of the wall and where they might head; and to also overlay discussion earlier today about Garen and the mother direwolf....

...and no Flagons...this is not a "hanging participle" as I'm going to finish my thought.

I think comments today about the size of the North and the Godswood being possible reasoning on where and how "people" might hide once they cross the Wall makes perfect sense to me. As for Garen...I go back and forth on this and I can't bring myself to the idea that he was anyway involved with the transport of mother direwolf across the wall. He was distraught and overwhelmed by his encounter with the WW's. I suppose the counter arghument is if someone is in that condition then how could they physically and mentally find away around the Wall. Maybe by chance, by way of Eastwatch and then wandered his way to Winterfell. This is a blank in my logic.

Getting back to the mother direwolf. My personal preference (with no textual evidence) is that Coldhands guided her across the "magical boundary" and then gutted her with an elk stine. I know, I know, this doesn't explain why Coldhands "can't" pass the Black Gate; but how else to explain how a mother direwolf would cross across that plain? Perhaps a better question would be "if" the mother direwolf ever passed the Wall or not? Maybe she was always South of the Wall.

I prefer CH over Gared in terms of how mother direwolf ends up South. Regardless, I'm not sure how you get a pregnant Direwolf across the "magical hinge".

:)

I'm open to the idea that the direwolf was south of the wall and probably living in the Wolfswood all along. It would make a ceartain sense and easier to explain why there is a dead dire so near Winterfell. We have yet to see any other direwolves besides the Stark bunch, but surely they are not the last of their kind, per Leafs little speech.

Another idea is Coldhands let the wolf through the gate. He may not can pass through, but who's to say he can't open the gate for someone else to pass?

[PrettyPig]

Another idea is Coldhands let the wolf through the gate. He may not can pass through, but who's to say he can't open the gate for someone else to pass?

I think I prefer this explanation even though it requires an assumption that Coldhands nabbed a yet unknown member of the "new" NW during a ranging and forced them to say the words (if you hold to the theory that CH's original vows don't work on the Black Gate, anyway). One of the other "disappeared" rangers that Jeor mentions, perhaps?

Regardless, we have the textual fact that CH is working with CotF and Bloodraven, the latter of course being a very powerful warg who could most likely slip into any direwolf he wanted and compel said wolf to go anywhere he pleased - including through a gate at the Nightfort and toward Winterfell, to the Brandon Stark for whom he says he has been waiting for years.

Summer also seems to show no trepidation toward Leaf, Bloodraven, or the greenseer's cave - she doesn't like Coldhands' smell but otherwise has no problem with him either. I would think the wolves would sense some instinctual threat had any of the above been responsible for the death of the mama. Summer and Ghost both go after the wights, however, who we know to be the minions of the popsicles.

So, I hold fast to my speculation that the Brynden Rivers Gang was responsbile for getting pregnant mama wolf away from her den and south of the Wall, while 'something else' was responsible for the agent of her demise - whether that's Gared with an antler dagger or a real actual elk or what have you.

[markg171]

I think we all know the answer to that. We may not wish to believe it, but Gared, as a man of the Watch... has needs. Unfulfilled needs.

This would also be why he killed her. Not all men respond well to being told "you're going to be a father" in a series of barks. Enlisting a deer as assassin was his next move. I'd say Ned served Gared right.

Re the relative population of the North and South, this SSM seems to put the matter beyond debate.

The Vale alone has about the same fighting strength, and thus overall population, as the entire North.

Very interesting line in there...

I'd say these three kingdoms were roughly equal in the force they could assemble...

Is GRRM telling us that he is writing about the past of Westoros and Essos in his story? This would certainly seem to indicate this as he is talking about Robb's force here and the military force of the Vale and Dorne in contrast. Why say that they all were (a word indicating the past) equal in force, if he's not referring to the past? He does say that history is one of his inspirations for the story, and by necessity, history is a telling of events in the past.

This would also make a rather interesting juxtaposition with the World of Ice and Fire book which is a historical book. We'd have a song (the main series), which is a dramatic re-telling of past events, and we'd have a historical book (the World Book), which is a factual account of past events.

I'd find this idea very amusing if at the end of A Dream of Spring, the book ends with some reader closing a book, or some group of children gathered around a campfire after someone has just finished telling a song. And this song was called "A Song of Ice and Fire". All along we'd have thought that by having POVs we were seeing the story through the characters eyes, but all along we were actually having it TOLD to us through their eyes.

[wolfmaid7]

Getting back to the mother direwolf. My personal preference (with no textual evidence) is that Coldhands guided her across the "magical boundary" and then gutted her with an elk stine. I know, I know, this doesn't explain why Coldhands "can't" pass the Black Gate; but how else to explain how a mother direwolf would cross across that plain? Perhaps a better question would be "if" the mother direwolf ever passed the Wall or not? Maybe she was always South of the Wall.

I prefer CH over Gared in terms of how mother direwolf ends up South. Regardless, I'm not sure how you get a pregnant Direwolf across the "magical hinge".

You raise two points to follow.The first being CH's possibly passing the Wall with Mama Di in tow the problem ofcourse is that we are led to believe by lore and CHs that he can't pass through.The only reference is Sam and Co who CH's helped cross by revealing the location of the BG,telling him what to do but in the meantime extracted a promise from Sam about not telling anyone about certain events which included him ofcourse and Bran.

I think it possible that the same could have applied to Gared and this is speculation because we really have no clue what his babbling consisted of,but he could have encountered the Ranger who from the onset looked like a brother and who helpful and articulate so there would have been some ease there.Not to mention we don't know how close attention he would have been paying,or if he was happy to get out of there.

On the Dirwolf being South of the Wall all the time.The problem with this is i don't see her standing still to take a shagging whereas with CHs their could have been some measure of control via Skinchanging link going on to compel her.

Lastly, we may have to concede that this was a plot device,GRRM needed to Direwolf south of the Wall and Gared to get across,he didn't think this through and we'll never get the answer.

CHs lied about not being able to cross and wanted Sam to maintain that delusion or we are missing something about the whole Dead things can't cross.Othor and Jafer did but while still linked to their host they were able to rise when it was needed.

So, I couldn't find more information about this. People here think Gared was sent to WF by something and in return he had to kill the direwolf? I don't want to step on any toes because I'm still new to you folks, but it kind of sounds like something my 7 yr old cousin would blurt out to give an explanation for the whole thing. I mean why send him to WF to get caught? They didn't see him, he was hiding in the tree.

I know this won't be popular, and I enjoy all the theories, but I don't believe Martin has given a second thought to Gared how he/wolf crossed the wall, stag fight vs dagger, where the stag body was (possible in a fight it twisted off, stag survives and runs off once wolf dead. The fact there was a body on the show, not in book tells me it's minutiae that doesn't matter or won't be addressed).

I don't know...I had the same questions about how Gareth and wolfmama got past the wall, but I thought I was overanalyzing at the time.

*** I do read stuff even when I don't join in, though, and I feel like you guys are all Ph.D intelligent (like Ph.D in asoiaf lore :)) because it's amazing how you guys engage in discourse and rattle off quotes like Rainman plays cards. I've read the series I think 3-4 times w/the exception of Dance, and I feel like a noob with you lot!

I think its not a matter of sending him to get caught. If this idea is correct and it was all about getting the Direwolf across then mission accomplished.What haopenes to Gared after is of no consequence or loss to CHs if he indeed send him.There was always a possibility that he would be caught,not believed and killed as a deserter which actually works out for CHs.No one South of the Wall was going to believe him.

Another thing, BC brought up the similarities between the Antlered Dagger and the Dagger Val has and following that train of thought i remember Val emerging from the Wood with Ghost who was fine with her because Jon was cool with her.Or lady sitting still while Ned did her eventhough Lady wasn't his and i doubt Ned played with the Wolves to have been able to get that loyalty.The same could apply to Mama Di and Gared she followed because it was probably ok with her proxy and took that dagger in the throat "like a boss."

In terms of other people passing through, paradoxically its more difficult to pass though undetected since its impossible to disappear into the anonymity of a town. Unless lying up by day and travelling only by night and the stars, strangers will be seen. A little paradoxically, unless they make a nuisance of themselves by stealing food from houses or even robbing people in broad daylight, they are more than likely to be ignored simply because unless they are causing trouble its probably more bother than its worth to call the sheriff or round up a posse.

Gared was unlucky.

I agree or it could be simple as he was already south of the Wall,already done his deed but had the same mindset like Will.Will thinking he would take Waymar's broken sword as evidence because in his mind they would believe him they would have too.I don't know if Gared was unlucky or if he was misguided in thinking "I'm close to WF,they would believe me."

Mormont seems to doubt that Gared who has been on the Wall longer than he-boy and man- would bolt.

So the thing is i believe given the proximity to where he was in relation to where Mama Di was found that he made a judgement call to head to WF.Was he really unlucky BC or was he not making the effort to be inconspicuous?

What suprises me more is Ned's reaction.If he himself confessed that "something put the fear into the man," why execute him for deserting?Why not atlease feed the man,keep him until he calms down then send a message to the Wall? I would have done that had i been Ned.

I think I prefer this explanation even though it requires an assumption that Coldhands nabbed a yet unknown member of the "new" NW during a ranging and forced them to say the words (if you hold to the theory that CH's original vows don't work on the Black Gate, anyway). One of the other "disappeared" rangers that Jeor mentions, perhaps?

Regardless, we have the textual fact that CH is working with CotF and Bloodraven, the latter of course being a very powerful warg who could most likely slip into any direwolf he wanted and compel said wolf to go anywhere he pleased - including through a gate at the Nightfort and toward Winterfell, to the Brandon Stark for whom he says he has been waiting for years.

Summer also seems to show no trepidation toward Leaf, Bloodraven, or the greenseer's cave - she doesn't like Coldhands' smell but otherwise has no problem with him either. I would think the wolves would sense some instinctual threat had any of the above been responsible for the death of the mama.

I don't know about that,this depending on whose thrall Mama Di was,i don't think any of the Wolves would have an adverse reaction as long as there was no danger directed at their proxies.I think CHs is a Skinchanger himself and its very possible the Dire wolf was from him.I don't see logistically a breeding program taking place in the cave.She like the Elk IMO most definitely were thralls of CHs.

I'd find this idea very amusing if at the end of A Dream of Spring, the book ends with some reader closing a book, or some group of children gathered around a campfire after someone has just finished telling a song. And this song was called "A Song of Ice and Fire". All along we'd have thought that by having POVs we were seeing the story through the characters eyes, but all along we were actually having it TOLD to us through their eyes.

Or worse all along we've been actually looking at this through the POV of a future Greenseer accessing the memories of current events through the Weirnet.

[Black Crow]

In terms of GRRM's intentions in writing this part of the book I think we can summarise it as follows:

A direwolf appears where no direwolf has been seen for hundreds of years.

It dies, leaving six orphan pups each corresponding in sex and character to each of the six children of Winterfell - a theme which becomes ever more apparent as the story goes on. The pups are the children and the children are the pups.

When its pointed out that this is so, Lord Eddard Stark, who has always known more than he says, is mightily troubled and his men too know that they are in the presence of signs and wonders.

And so on the story goes from there.

The current discussion is really one of perspective. Gared isn't important in himself. Gared is dead - unlike Will in the show he offers no warning of white walkers and might as well have died as quietly as he died unremarked. There was no need for his execution since his fate might be assumed from the prologue.

What's important is not Gared's escape but the arrival of the wolves. By his very existence long after he ought to have been dead Gared offers a possible explanation for how this, the otherwise inexplicable delivery of the wolves, may have been accomplished.

[PrettyPig]

I don't know about that,this depending on whose thrall Mama Di was,i don't think any of the Wolves would have an adverse reaction as long as there was no danger directed at their proxies.I think CHs is a Skinchanger himself and its very possible the Dire wolf was from him.I don't see logistically a breeding program taking place in the cave.She like the Elk IMO most definitely were thralls of CHs.

While I don't disagree that Coldhands is/was a skinchanger, the logistics surrounding him *as a dead man* controlling various creatures (and possibly people, if we are talking about him passing through the Black Gate) and going back and forth between wolves and ravens and elks in order to get south of the Wall get almost too complex. He might have some creatures as his thralls, but IMO the dead man of the Watch is his "true form" that he remains in all the time and CH is exactly what he seems to be - a patrolman for the CotF and Bloodraven. Now that is not to say that he isn't taking different NW host bodies from time to time (do wights rot?) but the mama wolf thing screams coordinated multi-player effort to me.

Also, given that Ghost is an albino with red eyes, the sign of the powerful greenseer, I don't think it's too off base to say that Bloodraven is involved with Mama somehow - and since he's the guy that can be everywhere at once and slip into any animal he wants, it seems that a much simpler explanation is that Bloodraven - with escort/travel help from Leaf and CH - got Mama across the Wall. CH wasn't operating alone, in other words.

ETA: random side thought. Have Heretics ever explored the possibility that Coldhands is actually Varamyr's mentor Haggon? I mean, we know Varamyr killed him and stole Haggon's second life, but nothing said Haggon didn't find something else to use. Haggon told Varamyr that warging a human was an abomination, but by all accounts Coldhands appears to have warged a dead man/wight (loophole!).

From the Wiki:

Haggon - "He was known as a friend of the Night's Watch, trading with them and bringing news of life beyond the Wall. He was tall, grim, had hard hands and a rough voice. Haggon instructed Varamyr Sixskins in the ways of the forest and skinchanging.... teaching him the differences between the animals and which were better and how to survive."

Coldhands - "Coldhands is dressed in the mottled blacks and greys of the Night's Watch with a scarf concealing his face. His hands are black and as cold as ice, and he rides a great elk. A flock of ravens flies under his command. Although he is thin and gaunt, his voice rattles. He looks and talks as if he was a ranger of the Night's Watch. When his great elk collapses along their journey, Coldhands whispers a blessing in an unknown language and slits the animal's throat..."

I wonder if Haggon was around while Bloodraven was LC?

[wolfmaid7]

While I don't disagree that Coldhands is/was a skinchanger, the logistics surrounding him *as a dead man* controlling various creatures (and possibly people, if we are talking about him passing through the Black Gate) and going back and forth between wolves and ravens and elks in order to get south of the Wall get almost too complex. He might have some creatures as his thralls, but IMO the dead man of the Watch is his "true form" that he remains in all the time and CH is exactly what he seems to be - a patrolman for the CotF and Bloodraven. Now that is not to say that he isn't taking different NW host bodies from time to time (do wights rot?) but the mama wolf thing screams coordinated multi-player effort to me.

Also, given that Ghost is an albino with red eyes, the sign of the powerful greenseer, I don't think it's too off base to say that Bloodraven is involved with Mama somehow - and since he's the guy that can be everywhere at once and slip into any animal he wants, it seems that a much simpler explanation is that Bloodraven - with escort/travel help from Leaf and CH - got Mama across the Wall. CH wasn't operating alone, in other words.

ETA: random side thought. Have Heretics ever explored the possibility that Coldhands is actually Varamyr's mentor Haggon? I mean, we know Varamyr killed him and stole Haggon's second life, but nothing said Haggon didn't find something else to use. Haggon told Varamyr that warging a human was an abomination, but by all accounts Coldhands appears to have warged a dead man/wight (loophole!).

From the Wiki:

Haggon - "He was known as a friend of the Night's Watch, trading with them and bringing news of life beyond the Wall. He was tall, grim, had hard hands and a rough voice. Haggon instructed Varamyr Sixskins in the ways of the forest and skinchanging.... teaching him the differences between the animals and which were better and how to survive."

Coldhands - "Coldhands is dressed in the mottled blacks and greys of the Night's Watch with a scarf concealing his face. His hands are black and as cold as ice, and he rides a great elk. A flock of ravens flies under his command. Although he is thin and gaunt, his voice rattles. He looks and talks as if he was a ranger of the Night's Watch. When his great elk collapses along their journey, Coldhands whispers a blessing in an unknown language and slits the animal's throat..."

I wonder if Haggon was around while Bloodraven was LC?

I fear some clarification is needed, one does not have to be "in" a familiar to control it all the time they just have to be bound to you by force by a link (case in point V6) and his thralls. So CH's need not have been jumping from Wolf, to Crow to Elk etc for that.

Now I'm not dismissing the BR/CH's link they most definitely are working together. He got Bran to BR but I don't think it was because he was Charon ,we can say with certainty that CHs is BR's foot man.

Also, I also disagree that because Ghost has red eyes and White fur he is connected to BR.We wouldn't say the same for the GHH would we.What all three of these have in common is their similarities to the Weirwoods. Which predates BR.

Magic is responsible for marking these individuals, BR doesn't have anything to do with that.He's just part of it for good or ill too.

[PrettyPig]

I fear some clarification is needed, one does not have to be "in" a familiar to control it all the time they just have to be bound to you by force by a link (case in point V6) and his thralls. So CH's need not have been jumping from Wolf, to Crow to Elk etc for that.

Now I'm not dismissing the BR/CH's link they most definitely are working together. He got Bran to BR but I don't think it was because he was Charon ,we can say with certainty that CHs is BR's foot man.

Also, I also disagree that because Ghost has red eyes and White fur he is connected to BR.We wouldn't say the same for the GHH would we.What all three of these have in common is their similarities to the Weirwoods. Which predates BR.

Magic is responsible for marking these individuals, BR doesn't have anything to do with that.He's just part of it for good or ill too.

Doesn't that complicate things even more, though? If mama wolf is Coldhands' thrall who is just bound to him courtesy of a prior skinchange, again, how did he get her south of the Wall unaccompanied? If the Wall is warded against him, is it warded against his particular abilities as well? I might not be asking this question very well.

The Ghost/BR/GHH connection - I for one believe they are all connected via the old greenseer magic and the markings are part of that, agree.....however, Coldhands exhibits none of the characteristics of this supercharged magic or even any significant connection to the weirwoods himself (unless I am forgetting something); all of his connection seems to come by proxy of Leaf and BR. CH can't even go into the cave where they are, recall. Because of that, I find it more likely that Bloodraven and not Coldhands is responsible for the guidance of mama wolf - old strong tree magic tapping into old strong wolf magic, if that makes any sense. I'm not sold on the idea that CH would have the goods to control "that".

[Black Crow]

:agree:

Whilst its possible that Coldhands may have been involved as a proxy for the "old gods" in showing Gared the way through the Black Gate, I don't see him exerting any direct control far less passing the Wall himself. What it may however require is someone - and somehow I have my doubts about Bloodraven - warging the direwolf and ultimately perhaps passively offering her throat to Gared's dagger when the time came.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Here's a collection of information re Gared's execution. I think this may be everything we get on Gared past the opening prologue. If there are any I've omitted, let me know. Note that we get very little info about the "questions asked and answers given." Not much new past Chapter 1, but there are bits. It's also somewhat notable that the execution scene recurs in Jon's memory several times at key moments along the way...

---------------

From AGOT, Chapter 1 (BRAN)

The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall...

But the man they found bound hand and foot to the holdfast wall awaiting the king's justice was old and scrawny, not much taller than Robb. He had lost both ears and a finger to frostbite, and he dressed all in black, the same as a brother of the Night's Watch, except that his furs were ragged and greasy...

There were questions asked and answers given there in the chill of morning, but afterward Bran could not recall much of what had been said. Finally his lord father gave a command, and two of his guardsmen dragged the ragged man to the ironwood stump in the center of the square. They forced his head down onto the hard black wood. Lord Eddard Stark dismounted and his ward Theon Greyjoy brought forth the sword. "Ice," that sword was called...

His father peeled off his gloves and handed them to Jory Cassel, the captain of his household guard. He took hold of Ice with both hands and said, "In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, I do sentence you to die." He lifted the greatsword high above his head...

His father took off the man's head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.

The head bounced off a thick root and rolled. It came up near Greyjoy's feet. Theon was a lean, dark youth of nineteen who found everything amusing. He laughed, put his boot on the head, and kicked it away...

"The deserter died bravely," Robb said... "He had courage, at the least."

"No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark." ...

Robb was not impressed. "The Others take his eyes," he swore. "He died well...

"Robb says the man died bravely, but Jon says he was afraid."

"What do you think?" his father asked.

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him. "Do you understand why I did it?"

"He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others."

His lord father smiled. "Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile.

from AGOT, Chapter 2 (CATELYN):

"The man died well, I'll give him that," Ned said. He had a swatch of oiled leather in one hand. He ran it lightly up the greatsword as he spoke, polishing the metal to a dark glow. "I was glad for Bran's sake. You would have been proud of Bran."

"He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him."

from AGOT Chapter 21 (TYRION):

"Gared was near as old as I am and longer on the Wall," he went on, "yet it would seem he forswore himself and fled. I should never have believed it, not of him, but Lord Eddard sent me his head from Winterfell."... - (LC Mormont)

from AGOT Chapter 70 (JON):

He found himself thinking of the deserter his father had beheaded the day they'd found the direwolves. "You said the words," Lord Eddard had told him. "You took a vow, before your brothers, before the old gods and the new." Desmond and Fat Tom had dragged the man to the stump. Bran's eyes had been wide as saucers, and Jon had to remind him to keep his pony in hand. He remembered the look on Father's face when Theon Greyjoy brought forth Ice, the spray of blood on the snow, the way Theon had kicked the head when it came rolling at his feet.

He wondered what Lord Eddard might have done if the deserter had been his brother Benjen instead of that ragged stranger.

from ACOK Chapter 23 (JON):

Lord Mormont said, "Ben was searching for Ser Waymar Royce, who'd vanished with Gared and young Will."

"Aye, those three I recall. The lordling no older than one of these pups. Too proud to sleep under my roof, him in his sable cloak and black steel. My wives give him big cow eyes all the same." He turned his squint on the nearest of the women. "Gared says they were chasing raiders. I told him, with a commander that green, best not catch 'em. Gared wasn't half-bad, for a crow. Had less ears than me, that one. The 'bite took 'em, same as mine." Craster laughed. "Now I hear he got no head neither. The `bite do that too?"

Jon remembered a spray of red blood on white snow, and the way Theon Greyjoy had kicked the dead man's head. The man was a deserter. On the way back to Winterfell, Jon and Robb had raced, and found six direwolf pups in the snow. A thousand years ago.

from ASOS Chapter 41 (JON):

“He must die," Styr the Magnar said. "Do it, crow." ... The old man said no word. He only looked at Jon, standing amongst the wildlings...

Jon remembered another killing; the deserter on his knees, his head rolling, the brightness of blood on snow… his father's sword, his father's words, his father's face...

"Do it, Jon Snow," Ygritte urged. "You must. T'prove you are no crow, but one o' the free folk."

[aDanceWithFlagons]

A question I asked a long way back when I was new to Heresy... Where is Bloodraven's wolf?

From Jojen-

"The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world."

So I can see momma wolf as BR's partner. You know when Jojen spit out that line above people would ask where is that greenseer's wolf.

[wolfmaid7]

Doesn't that complicate things even more, though? If mama wolf is Coldhands' thrall who is just bound to him courtesy of a prior skinchange, again, how did he get her south of the Wall unaccompanied? If the Wall is warded against him, is it warded against his particular abilities as well? I might not be asking this question very well.

The Ghost/BR/GHH connection - I for one believe they are all connected via the old greenseer magic and the markings are part of that, agree.....however, Coldhands exhibits none of the characteristics of this supercharged magic or even any significant connection to the weirwoods himself (unless I am forgetting something); all of his connection seems to come by proxy of Leaf and BR. CH can't even go into the cave where they are, recall. Because of that, I find it more likely that Bloodraven and not Coldhands is responsible for the guidance of mama wolf - old strong tree magic tapping into old strong wolf magic, if that makes any sense. I'm not sold on the idea that CH would have the goods to control "that".

Per my earlier earlier post this scenario is only possible if CH's lied or if we missed something regarding the dead things going across the Wall lore.

If not my earlier point applies and he just instructed it to go across with Gared.