Heresy 160

[Mace Cooterian]

While we are pondering Gared, the mother Direwolf and whether or not the 49'ers will continue their travesties in 2015...I ran across this statment and wanted to vet it in the stream of Heresy:

I've cut out what I felt was not pertient to the discussion:

On northern mythology we do have some information connecting Rhaegar. He was communicating with Aemon at the wall. Aemon indicates the Prince is associated with the War for the Dawn, Rhaegar has been known to mention the prince and ice and fire and the dragons. Rhaegar believed for a time he was the Prince that was promised.

Now he does not have to go North to study northern mythology, he could but the best placed would be the library at Winterfell, the Wall and what's that Town of the first king right by Winterfell? But he probably didn't but there is another place he could of gone. We only have a brief glimps of his life so there is room for it. Rhaegar was suppose to be very bookish and the Maesters were in awe of awe of his wits.

It's not out of the realm of possibility he visited Old Town. In fact even Oberyn studied there. Why in fact you could of made a show of it. Oberyn Excelling in potions class and Rhaegar excelling in Defense against the Dark Night. We see that both people in Esssos and Westeros have some understanding of the Darkness and Azor and the Prince. Mel considers them one. But there is this moment with Tyrion in Dance 27 that is very intresting. It's not really about the conclusion of what he says but the fact that he knows it. Tyrion is in Volantis

***snip***

Do we have any evidence to suggest that Rhaegar was communicating with Aemon while he was at the wall? Furthermore, and to be thorough, is it possible that R did visit A well in advance of the events that put trouserless Bob on the Iron Throne?

ETA: couldn't spell travesties on the first go around.

[JNR]

Do we have any evidence to suggest that Rhaegar was communicating with Aemon while he was at the wall?

Yes, speaker is Aemon:

[Rhaegar] shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise!

All of this knowledge likely came to Aemon via correspondence. Aemon was at the Wall starting long before the time Rhaegar was born, and I don't recall that he ever left until AFFC. "Shared my belief when he was young" makes this sound like an ongoing correspondence dating back quite some time before Rhaegar's death.

We've also not been told Rhaegar went anywhere near the Wall in his lifetime (though it's possible he did anyway).

[Phillip Frye]

What exactly was Osha expecting Robb to accomplish? I don't recall her saying and make sure every man is armed with as many dragonglass weapons as he can carry

The problem is that like Cassandra, Osha is not heeded. This is because Osha is speaking in the language of the Song of Ice and Fire while Lord Robb is playing the Game of Thrones.

[Phillip Frye]

As for Garen...I go back and forth on this and I can't bring myself to the idea that he was anyway involved with the transport of mother direwolf across the wall. He was distraught and overwhelmed by his encounter with the WW's. I suppose the counter arghument is if someone is in that condition then how could they physically and mentally find away around the Wall. Maybe by chance, by way of Eastwatch and then wandered his way to Winterfell. This is a blank in my logic.

One of the best arguments in favor of Gared accompanying the direwolf south is that the white walkers surely did not simply let Gared go.

[markg171]

Yes, speaker is Aemon:

All of this knowledge likely came to Aemon via correspondence. Aemon was at the Wall starting long before the time Rhaegar was born, and I don't recall that he ever left until AFFC. "Shared my belief when he was young" makes this sound like an ongoing correspondence dating back quite some time before Rhaegar's death.

We've also not been told Rhaegar went anywhere near the Wall in his lifetime (though it's possible he did anyway).

I doubt it. Ned made it clear that royalty does not visit the north

“Likely they were too shy to come out,” Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. “Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

If the crown prince had visited the north, we'd know.

[Phillip Frye]

They absolutely will not have the same endings...

Okay, friend, now you've gone and confused me. Are you saying that the combined spirits of Deaddard and Khal Drogo will inhabit Jon Snow's body on the show or in the books?

[Mace Cooterian]

Yes, speaker is Aemon:

All of this knowledge likely came to Aemon via correspondence. Aemon was at the Wall starting long before the time Rhaegar was born, and I don't recall that he ever left until AFFC. "Shared my belief when he was young" makes this sound like an ongoing correspondence dating back quite some time before Rhaegar's death.

We've also not been told Rhaegar went anywhere near the Wall in his lifetime (though it's possible he did anyway).

Perfect example of why Heresy can quickly parse through the...B** S**t.

As near as I can tell, Aemon went to the wall in 233AC (maybe 234AC) when Aegon V became King and he (Aemon) took on the black. Rhaegar was not born until 259AC and later dies 283AC.

Getting back to the "likely" correspondance between R and A (and I'm assuming this to be via "air mail") and further assuming the threshold of "being young" as noted by Aemon....Rhaegar was 16. Consider that R died in 283AC which would have made him 24. So by the time he realized prophesy lessons, TPtWP, having communicated with dear Uncle Aemon and sharing his beliefs....he would have come into understanding by his 16th birthday....give or take 1 or 2 years.

The timing makes sense to me. I agree with other comments that it is unlikely that R ever ventured North to vist his Uncle. Besides, unless someone corrects me, the only time written where a king (and quieen) visited the Wall was Jahearys and good Queen Alysanne.

[Eira Seren]

Read this earlier today and thought what a wonderful post. Reading again this evening and have the same opinion.

:bowdown:

Eh, thanks! The idea came from some stuff I worked on a long time ago, with Shakespeare's Cymbeline. Heavy on the theory, but especially interesting is the part where Imogen takes off into Wales, only to discover that not only do mapped distances not measure up to reality, but she rapidly becomes quite turned around (this is from Garrett A. Sullivan's“Civilizing Wales”). Better yet, the landscape, people, and Welshness just sort of disappear, and are eventually absorbed or supplanted by the end of the play in the project of establishing Wales as a domain of England and Englishness. (This is from some stuff by Philip Scwhyzer). It's like she's headed off into an idea of Wales, not a place that ever actually exists.

In other words,

"The map is not the land."

So I find the comparison between Robert's view of the North-- what he expects it to be, as part of his kingdom--and the disparity between that and the emptiness he perceives, to be a similar example. And perhaps other characters like Robert are only imagining and therefore constructing the North on maps and in their minds as really really empty. . . and perhaps something, or someone is being made invisible in the process.

And we're being encouraged to see it the way they do, as readers.

ETA: and perhaps this view extends North of the Wall as well, and may also be the way the Starks view North of the Wall. . . for varying reasons).

[Mace Cooterian]

One of the best arguments in favor of Gared accompanying the direwolf south is that the white walkers surely did not simply let Gared go.

The idea of Gared freeing himslef from the initial (prolouge) encounter and making his way across the wall empty handed does seem somewhat void of substance. If only we knew more about the broken stine.

[Mother of Dragons]

The very heretical theory is that Gared killed the she wolf because that's what he'd been instructed to do by whoever sent him in order to ensure delivery. While he was executed at a nearby holdfast we don't know where he was actually captured in relation to the she-wolf.

So, I couldn't find more information about this. People here think Gared was sent to WF by something and in return he had to kill the direwolf? I don't want to step on any toes because I'm still new to you folks, but it kind of sounds like something my 7 yr old cousin would blurt out to give an explanation for the whole thing. I mean why send him to WF to get caught? They didn't see him, he was hiding in the tree.

I know this won't be popular, and I enjoy all the theories, but I don't believe Martin has given a second thought to Gared how he/wolf crossed the wall, stag fight vs dagger, where the stag body was (possible in a fight it twisted off, stag survives and runs off once wolf dead. The fact there was a body on the show, not in book tells me it's minutiae that doesn't matter or won't be addressed).

I don't know...I had the same questions about how Gareth and wolfmama got past the wall, but I thought I was overanalyzing at the time.

*** I do read stuff even when I don't join in, though, and I feel like you guys are all Ph.D intelligent (like Ph.D in asoiaf lore :)) because it's amazing how you guys engage in discourse and rattle off quotes like Rainman plays cards. I've read the series I think 3-4 times w/the exception of Dance, and I feel like a noob with you lot!

[e1kabong]

looks like Mance is going to be dead - really really dead

It's also possible that this is another one of those consolidation moves by the show runners. It may be that they don't actually want to kill Rattleshirt because they are keeping him around as an antagonist for Jon. In other words, why have a new, unfamiliar character when an established character can easily fit into their spot (like how Gendry replaced Edric Storm)? In this scenario, the person burning in the cage is just some random Wildling, leaving Mance still very much alive, but Rattleshirt available to act as a known villain. They already splurged on making him a pretty sweet looking costume, after all. He might even escape Jon and Tormund and be a possible stand-in for the Weeper.

[Voice]

So, I couldn't find more information about this. People here think Gared was sent to WF by something and in return he had to kill the direwolf? I don't want to step on any toes because I'm still new to you folks, but it kind of sounds like something my 7 yr old cousin would blurt out to give an explanation for the whole thing. I mean why send him to WF to get caught? They didn't see him, he was hiding in the tree.

I know this won't be popular, and I enjoy all the theories, but I don't believe Martin has given a second thought to Gared how he/wolf crossed the wall, stag fight vs dagger, where the stag body was (possible in a fight it twisted off, stag survives and runs off once wolf dead. The fact there was a body on the show, not in book tells me it's minutiae that doesn't matter or won't be addressed).

I don't know...I had the same questions about how Gareth and wolfmama got past the wall, but I thought I was overanalyzing at the time.

*** I do read stuff even when I don't join in, though, and I feel like you guys are all Ph.D intelligent (like Ph.D in asoiaf lore :)) because it's amazing how you guys engage in discourse and rattle off quotes like Rainman plays cards. I've read the series I think 3-4 times w/the exception of Dance, and I feel like a noob with you lot!

I agree.

I think Gared and the direwolf were simply plot devices GRRM needed for the first chapter. Gared sets up the threat and warning of Others for the Starks (as well as setting FM apart from latter day men, culturally). The direwolf sets up warghood for the children, serves to foreshadow Ned's death by Stag, and additionally, hints at the death of the snow-wolf's mother.

[Mother of Dragons]

I agree.

I think Gared and the direwolf were simply plot devices GRRM needed for the first chapter. Gared sets up the threat and warning of Others for the Starks (as well as setting FM apart from latter day men, culturally). The direwolf sets up warghood for the children, serves to foreshadow Ned's death by Stag, and additionally, hints at the death of the snow-wolf's mother.

Good catch on symbolisms, they aren't all mainstream, and the part of the mother dying is something I never saw before. One could say it also foreshadowed Cat's death.

OK, going to try and go to bed here...just have to take a peek at the walking dead threads...and hoping I can stay away from this busy thread until mañana!

[TheSmallOther]

So, I couldn't find more information about this. People here think Gared was sent to WF by something and in return he had to kill the direwolf? I don't want to step on any toes because I'm still new to you folks, but it kind of sounds like something my 7 yr old cousin would blurt out to give an explanation for the whole thing. I mean why send him to WF to get caught? They didn't see him, he was hiding in the tree.

I know this won't be popular, and I enjoy all the theories, but I don't believe Martin has given a second thought to Gared how he/wolf crossed the wall, stag fight vs dagger, where the stag body was (possible in a fight it twisted off, stag survives and runs off once wolf dead. The fact there was a body on the show, not in book tells me it's minutiae that doesn't matter or won't be addressed).

I don't know...I had the same questions about how Gareth and wolfmama got past the wall, but I thought I was overanalyzing at the time.

*** I do read stuff even when I don't join in, though, and I feel like you guys are all Ph.D intelligent (like Ph.D in asoiaf lore :)) because it's amazing how you guys engage in discourse and rattle off quotes like Rainman plays cards. I've read the series I think 3-4 times w/the exception of Dance, and I feel like a noob with you lot!

It may be or it may be not. I agree that all this stuff around Gared is very much a speculation as there are almost no clues how he could pass the wall. And even if he was sent soth of the Wall by Others, someone would have to look after him to keep up to the promises (if any). And it would be very strange to see direwoolf so trustfull that she allows Gared to come so close in order to kill her. I mean, not so long ago he was travelling north of the Wall with his party, now he is best friend with some direwoolf?

However, regarding stag, and woolf, it's definately important. Too much symbolism, as it was pointed out many times before.

[TheSmallOther]

I doubt it. Ned made it clear that royalty does not visit the north

If the crown prince had visited the north, we'd know.

I remember few threads ago there were some discussions about how would Rhaeghar travel somewhere south after Lyanna's abduction and no one would recognize him. I'd say same applies to North. If you are not travelling with all your court like Robert did, you may be treated as usual knight.

[TheSmallOther]

On the subject of those North of the Wall and where they might try and breach the confines of the wall and where they might head; and to also overlay discussion earlier today about Garen and the mother direwolf....

...and no Flagons...this is not a "hanging participle" as I'm going to finish my thought.

I think comments today about the size of the North and the Godswood being possible reasoning on where and how "people" might hide once they cross the Wall makes perfect sense to me. As for Garen...I go back and forth on this and I can't bring myself to the idea that he was anyway involved with the transport of mother direwolf across the wall. He was distraught and overwhelmed by his encounter with the WW's. I suppose the counter arghument is if someone is in that condition then how could they physically and mentally find away around the Wall. Maybe by chance, by way of Eastwatch and then wandered his way to Winterfell. This is a blank in my logic.

Getting back to the mother direwolf. My personal preference (with no textual evidence) is that Coldhands guided her across the "magical boundary" and then gutted her with an elk stine. I know, I know, this doesn't explain why Coldhands "can't" pass the Black Gate; but how else to explain how a mother direwolf would cross across that plain? Perhaps a better question would be "if" the mother direwolf ever passed the Wall or not? Maybe she was always South of the Wall.

I prefer CH over Gared in terms of how mother direwolf ends up South. Regardless, I'm not sure how you get a pregnant Direwolf across the "magical hinge".

Little change in words and here is another question to you. If she was always South of the Wall, how do you get Direwoolf pregnant?

[Mother of Dragons]

It may be or it may be not. I agree that all this stuff around Gared is very much a speculation as there are almost no clues how he could pass the wall. And even if he was sent soth of the Wall by Others, someone would have to look after him to keep up to the promises (if any). And it would be very strange to see direwoolf so trustfull that she allows Gared to come so close in order to kill her. I mean, not so long ago he was travelling north of the Wall with his party, now he is best friend with some direwoolf?

However, regarding stag, and woolf, it's definately important. Too much symbolism, as it was pointed out many times before.

Stag and wolf is important. What I was saying that whether the stag's body was there, it ran off, or someone stabbed the wolf with an antler dagger was important. Voice was clearer, he understands my language and translated quite nicely. Ok turning everything off for realz! Night :)

[Mother of Dragons]

Little change in words and here is another question to you. If she was always South of the Wall, how do you get Direwoolf pregnant?

Agh! You had to distract me! JNR suggested to me that perhaps direwolf was already there as well. Who got her preggers? A normal wolf bred w/her or another direwolf. The North is a huge expanse, not very populated. Same idea on how pandas were considered a myth for so long- not enough ppl to witness rare/endangered species.

[Black Crow]

As to the population of the North, Hardhome furnishes a good example in being advertised as the only town north of the Wall, and there are in truth precious few between it and the Neck, yet there are people and the Canadian example is a good one. They are living in small scattered communities and farms. The population density is low, but they are there.

In terms of other people passing through, paradoxically its more difficult to pass though undetected since its impossible to disappear into the anonymity of a town. Unless lying up by day and travelling only by night and the stars, strangers will be seen. A little paradoxically, unless they make a nuisance of themselves by stealing food from houses or even robbing people in broad daylight, they are more than likely to be ignored simply because unless they are causing trouble its probably more bother than its worth to call the sheriff or round up a posse.

Gared was unlucky.

[Black Crow]

I prefer CH over Gared in terms of how mother direwolf ends up South. Regardless, I'm not sure how you get a pregnant Direwolf across the "magical hinge".

But Coldhands can't pass through the gate which is why some of the current thinking is that he may have been the one who showed Gared how to get through it, just as he did Sam - and for much the same reason