Heresy 160

[Eira Seren]

Can you guys validate something for me? Did Jon Snow only have 3 ppl who wanted him dead when he died? There's this "user" in the other forum who vomits all over me, and he's been here awhile, apparently still regurgitating. I have to find what I wrote, because I was under the impression Jon had a lot more enemies when he let the wildlings through. So if he's wrong, if you don't mind, I'll paraphrase your smart answer and use it to sucker punch the guy. I'm not at that point yet in my reread. If I'm wrong, that's fine. I don't mind it when I'm wrong ever in life, except when it comes to that familiar avatar!

Don't forget Othell Yarwyck, Septon Cellador, Alliser Thorne, Ser Glendon of Eastwatch, and Axell Florent. They're not necessarily the attackers there at the end, but they're still in play, they've all got agendas, and we don't know who all helped orchestrate Jon's downfall. Jon's already marked each of them as foes or enemies at some point along the way.

:ninja: 'd x2

But do think that in terms of literally who/how many stabs, we're looking at 4 times.

The list of who wanted him dead is much longer.

There's more buildup in the chapter, and maybe the one before, it, too. Here's the final moment:

"Let him go," Jon shouted. "Wun Wun, let him go."

Wun Wun did not hear or did not understand. The giant was bleeding himself, with sword cuts on his belly and his arm. He swung the dead knight against the grey stone of the tower, again and again and again, until the man's head was red and pulpy as a summer melon. The knight's cloak flapped in the cold air. Of white wool it had been, bordered in cloth-of-silver and patterned with blue stars. Blood and bone were flying everywhere. Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen's men ... "Form a line," Jon Snow commanded them. "Keep them back. Everyone, but especially the queen's men." The dead man was Ser Patrek of King's Mountain; his head was largely gone, but his heraldry was as distinctive as his face. Jon did not want to risk Ser Malegorn or Ser Brus or any of the queen's other knights trying to avenge him.

Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun howled again and gave Ser Patrek's other arm a twist and pull. It tore loose from his shoulder with a spray of bright red blood. Like a child pulling petals off a daisy, thought Jon. "Leathers, talk to him, calm him. The Old Tongue, he understands the Old Tongue. Keep back, the rest of you. Put away your steel, we're scaring him."

Couldn't they see the giant had been cut? Jon had to put an end to this or more men would die. They had no idea of Wun Wun's strength. A horn, I need a horn. He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. "No blades! " he screamed. "Wick, put that knife ..."

... away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. "Why? "

"For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold ...

Bowen at least seems sincere in his motive. Wick almost seems like he'd like to sidestep any responsibility at the end. Don't think he's under any kind of compulsion, though he's acting funny

Not sure who the third and fourth stab comes from.

I might add Queen Selyse to the list of who wants Jon dead, and maybe even Mel. Queen Selyse is less likely, however, unless it's Axel Florent, as maybe her men were supposed to cause the distraction. More likely, Florent or someone else orchestrated Sir Patrek and Wun Wun.

[Eira Seren]

I think we all know the answer to that. We may not wish to believe it, but Gared, as a man of the Watch... has needs. Unfulfilled needs.

This would also be why he killed her. Not all men respond well to being told "you're going to be a father" in a series of barks. Enlisting a deer as assassin was his next move. I'd say Ned served Gared right.

Re the relative population of the North and South, this SSM seems to put the matter beyond debate.

The Vale alone has about the same fighting strength, and thus overall population, as the entire North.

Oh, again :ack:

. . .

On the Dirwolf being South of the Wall all the time.The problem with this is i don't see her standing still to take a shagging whereas with CHs their could have been some measure of control via Skinchanging link going on to compel her.

Lastly, we may have to concede that this was a plot device,GRRM needed to Direwolf south of the Wall and Gared to get across,he didn't think this through and we'll never get the answer.

. . .

I think its not a matter of sending him to get caught. If this idea is correct and it was all about getting the Direwolf across then mission accomplished.What haopenes to Gared after is of no consequence or loss to CHs if he indeed send him.There was always a possibility that he would be caught,not believed and killed as a deserter which actually works out for CHs.No one South of the Wall was going to believe him.

. . .

What suprises me more is Ned's reaction.If he himself confessed that "something put the fear into the man," why execute him for deserting?Why not atlease feed the man,keep him until he calms down then send a message to the Wall? I would have done that had i been Ned.

I don't know about that,this depending on whose thrall Mama Di was,i don't think any of the Wolves would have an adverse reaction as long as there was no danger directed at their proxies.I think CHs is a Skinchanger himself and its very possible the Dire wolf was from him.I don't see logistically a breeding program taking place in the cave.She like the Elk IMO most definitely were thralls of CHs.

To be clear, I still think that the direwolves have always been south of the wall. No need to magic one up.

However, having said that, I could see where one might be sent south. I doubt very much the part about warging in order to impregnate, that's even ickier than JNR's joke above.

I still do not understand why Gared wouldn't make a fine sacrifice. Gared seems compelled by fear. This is also the way Hodor acts when someone skinchanges him. Am not saying this is what's driving Gared, but is always possible, I guess.

Someone as scared and acting as goners as Gared. . . just am not sure I see him in the company of this direwolf to begin with. But who knows? I think they are separate events.

Perhaps BR knew his end of days was approaching and thus dispensed MamaD towards the Starks in Winterfell. While the books don't necessarily refer to it; perhaps this is how the transitioning from one greenseer to the heir apparent has been working these thousand(s) of years...or dare I say it, since the first pact?

This seems far more likely and a much less convoluted scenario.

I have been advocating that Mama Wolf was meant for Ned - 'the Stark in Winterfell' - but I like the idea of her being BR's warg creature/familiar much better.

This brings me back to a question I had a few Heresies ago: given BR's greensight ability, it's likely that he "saw" Ghost of the weirwood markings.....but was Ghost actually intended for Bran? Or was Jon supposed to be BR's heir apparent?

It just strikes me as odd that the direwolf that everyone says belongs to the Old Gods goes with the Stark kid who is NOT currently chilling out in the Master's cave.

Nice one! Seems like maybe she was meant as a gift, perhaps a way of honoring some old agreement. So if she was waylaid, it must have been because someone else didn't want her to arrive. That I suppose could play out with a freak deer accident. Though again, am just not sure about all the warging going on here.

[Mother of Dragons]

I think we all know the answer to that. We may not wish to believe it, but Gared, as a man of the Watch... has needs. Unfulfilled needs.

This would also be why he killed her. Not all men respond well to being told "you're going to be a father" in a series of barks. Enlisting a deer as assassin was his next move.

Especially when he finds out his baby mama is just a bitch.

[JNR]

:ninja: 'd x2

But do think that in terms of literally who/how many stabs, we're looking at 4 times.

The list of who wanted him dead is much longer.

I suspect so too, which is why I said "at least," but... it's one thing to think you want someone dead, and another thing actually to take direct steps, and we only know of four blades.

But I do suspect there were more than four guys there who were serious about it.

Especially when he finds out his baby mama is just a bitch.

Who's only interested in sex once a year.

And there's only one position she likes even then.

[Mother of Dragons]

I suspect so too, which is why I said "at least," but... it's one thing to think you want someone dead, and another thing actually to take direct steps, and we only know of four blades.

But I do suspect there were more than four guys there who were serious about it.

Who's only interested in sex once a year.

And there's only one position she likes even then.

Hey, I found the post! Thanks, guys, I'll let you know what he says. I'm sure he'll respond right away. But I'll make him wait to increase suspense.

[Phillip Frye]

A question I asked a long way back when I was new to Heresy... Where is Bloodraven's wolf?

It's an interesting thought, but I've always seen Bloodraven as more of a raven guy, instead.

[Mother of Dragons]

Can you guys look over this plagiarism before I reply, and let me know if I can say "Owned!" at the end. Thanks for the help:)

There was another quote about Jon not really having enemies, but I just used the first one

[Mother of Dragons]

Oops, here it is: Thank you Eira, JNR, Snowfyre, and Dance of Flagons

Because for Jon it is important on a personal level.

A minority of them. Just three, as far as we know. The vast majority backs him.

Ok, was doing some "research", and let's just say it's naive to think Jon isn't attracting more enemies. For one thing, if you read the passage, there are 4 knives, not 3.

At least four blades wielded by Watchmen, plus Ramsay (who refers to cutting out Jon's bastard heart), plus Varamyr in One Eye (who's hated Jon at least since Orell), is at least twice that many. Good strong cases could certainly be made for others, such as the Weeper. While not physically present, Cersei could be added to his enemy list.

Let's not forget Othell Yarwyck, Septon Cellador, Alliser Thorne, Ser Glendon of Eastwatch, and Axell Florent. They're not necessarily the attackers there at the end, but they're still in play, they've all got agendas, and we don't know who all helped orchestrate Jon's downfall. Jon's already marked each of them as foes or enemies at some point along the way.

So yes, the literal people who had a hand in his death is likely 4-6, but the folks who WANT him dead is a longer list, moreso than you have downplayed.

For your convenience I'm copy pasting the last point of build up in the chapter below:

"Let him go," Jon shouted. "Wun Wun, let him go."

Wun Wun did not hear or did not understand. The giant was bleeding himself, with sword cuts on his belly and his arm. He swung the dead knight against the grey stone of the tower, again and again and again, until the man's head was red and pulpy as a summer melon. The knight's cloak flapped in the cold air. Of white wool it had been, bordered in cloth-of-silver and patterned with blue stars. Blood and bone were flying everywhere. Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen's men ... "Form a line," Jon Snow commanded them. "Keep them back. Everyone, but especially the queen's men." The dead man was Ser Patrek of King's Mountain; his head was largely gone, but his heraldry was as distinctive as his face. Jon did not want to risk Ser Malegorn or Ser Brus or any of the queen's other knights trying to avenge him.

Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun howled again and gave Ser Patrek's other arm a twist and pull. It tore loose from his shoulder with a spray of bright red blood. Like a child pulling petals off a daisy, thought Jon. "Leathers, talk to him, calm him. The Old Tongue, he understands the Old Tongue. Keep back, the rest of you. Put away your steel, we're scaring him."

Couldn't they see the giant had been cut? Jon had to put an end to this or more men would die. They had no idea of Wun Wun's strength. A horn, I need a horn. He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. "No blades! " he screamed. "Wick, put that knife ..."

... away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. "Why? "

"For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold ...

Bowen at least seems sincere in his motive. Wick almost seems like he'd like to sidestep any responsibility at the end. Don't think he's under any kind of compulsion, though he's acting funny

Not sure who the third and fourth stab comes from.

I might add Queen Selyse to the list of who wants Jon dead, and maybe even Mel. Queen Selyse is less likely, however, unless it's Axel Florent, as maybe her men were supposed to cause the distraction. More likely, Florent or someone else orchestrated Sir Patrek and Wun Wun.

[Eira Seren]

I suspect so too, which is why I said "at least," but... it's one thing to think you want someone dead, and another thing actually to take direct steps, and we only know of four blades.

But I do suspect there were more than four guys there who were serious about it.

Who's only interested in sex once a year.

And there's only one position she likes even then.

And maybe a lady as well.

Hey, I found the post! Thanks, guys, I'll let you know what he says. I'm sure he'll respond right away. But I'll make him wait to increase suspense.

Good luck!

[King Tyrion XX]

In terms of GRRM's intentions in writing this part of the book I think we can summarise it as follows:

A direwolf appears where no direwolf has been seen for hundreds of years.

It dies, leaving six orphan pups each corresponding in sex and character to each of the six children of Winterfell - a theme which becomes ever more apparent as the story goes on. The pups are the children and the children are the pups.

When its pointed out that this is so, Lord Eddard Stark, who has always known more than he says, is mightily troubled and his men too know that they are in the presence of signs and wonders.

And so on the story goes from there.

The current discussion is really one of perspective. Gared isn't important in himself. Gared is dead - unlike Will in the show he offers no warning of white walkers and might as well have died as quietly as he died unremarked. There was no need for his execution since his fate might be assumed from the prologue.

What's important is not Gared's escape but the arrival of the wolves. By his very existence long after he ought to have been dead Gared offers a possible explanation for how this, the otherwise inexplicable delivery of the wolves, may have been accomplished.

Would be really interesting to get a Gared POV as the ADOS intro and it turns out he actually killed the WW.

[Black Crow]

Would be really interesting to get a Gared POV as the ADOS intro and it turns out he actually killed the WW.

A touch unlikely I fear since he's been shorter by a head since the first chapter of AGoT :devil:

[Black Crow]

As to the children of Winterfell and their wolves, the eye colouring isn't easy to interpret.

I agree with Wolfmaid that Jon and Ghost are properly paired. That at least was made very explicit from the very beginning as is the weirwood connection and the old gods, but Jon is a wood dancer not a greenseer. In that respect I think that Jon is straightforward although I can't help but observe that the pretty blue eyes aside the show is suggesting that the Nights King belongs to the old gods too and may once have been a "wood dancer" - there's a further heretical thought on that one but I want to see what actually happens at Hardhome in the show.

Rickon is interesting in that he doesn't feature in the synopsis at all, so we have to think why he was added and why when the five direwolves became six his was the only other not to have golden eyes

[Black Crow]

Still catching up so this may have already been said, but you have that backwards BC.

Lord Eddard Stark was troubled before Jon pointed out the number and sex of the pups, not after.

The idea of Gared delivering and/or killing the direwolf raises far more questions than it answers, and is an unnecessary complication of the first chapter. Clearly, Gared and the wolf are inexplicable plot devices.

I was condensing things a little but the picture of Lord Eddard's reaction [and that of his men who are effectively Hail-Marying for all all they are worth] is a fair summary, and likewise my final paragraph; in the context of the discussion the point is that its the she-wolf who is important, Gared isn't, and the fact of his otherwise unnecessary presence simply offers a possible explanation for the otherwise mysterious appearance of the she-wolf at that particular time and place.

[wolfmaid7]

I still hold to Jon being a Greenseer, but I am intrigued by the Wood dancer route.Is there any info on what their role is , who they are and any description?

[Black Crow]

The wood dancers were the warriors, hence my suggestion that Jon is to be the warrior protecting the weirwood-greenseer-old gods set-up

[Voice]

I was condensing things a little but the picture of Lord Eddard's reaction [and that of his men who are effectively Hail-Marying for all all they are worth] is a fair summary

Meh, hail-marying is an exaggeration in my opinion.

As to the overall feeling of the moment, there was palpable unease among the men gathered around the direwolf, I do agree. But, once Jon pointed out the number of pups and their sexes, it went away... palpably.

I think it's an important distinction to make, because rather than causing unease, Jon's comment breaks through the furrowed brows, and completely alters the fate of the Stark children.

Bran looked to his lord father for rescue, but got only a frown, a furrowed brow. “Hullen speaks truly, son. Better a swift death than a hard one from cold and starvation.”

“No!” He could feel tears welling in his eyes, and he looked away. He did not want to cry in front of his father.

Robb resisted stubbornly. “Ser Rodrik’s red bitch whelped again last week,” he said. “It was a small litter, only two live pups. She’ll have milk enough.”

“She’ll rip them apart when they try to nurse.”

“Lord Stark,” Jon said. It was strange to hear him call Father that, so formal. Bran looked at him with desperate hope. “There are five pups,” he told Father. “Three male, two female.”

“What of it, Jon?”

“You have five trueborn children,” Jon said. “Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord.”

Bran saw his father’s face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.

Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?” he asked softly.

“The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”

Their lord father regarded Jon thoughtfully.

I think it's funny people want to think BR sent the wolf, or CH fathered the pups LOL, but they are simply a plot device. It's quite clear that it was Jon who ensured the old powers would awaken for the Stark children. No one else. He's the one that turned the tide of foreboding omen into a feeling of duty and destiny.

[TheSmallOther]

I think it's funny people want to think BR sent the wolf, or CH fathered the pups LOL, but they are simply a plot device. It's quite clear that it was Jon who ensured the old powers would awaken for the Stark children. No one else. He's the one that turned the tide of foreboding omen into a feeling of duty and destiny.

Well, these are two unrelated actions, to send direwoolf and to recognize them. In fact, third action is to find them and not to pass by. But I'm pretty sure if woolves are to be left alone, Starks would find these pups next day inside the castle with Stark names written on their heads :)

[Gala]

Sorry for intruding...I mostly read the threads, and write very rarely.

I'd like to point out that scene of finding the direwolf pups shows us that all three boys, 2 Starks and 1 half Stark- Bran, Robb and Jon- were not happy with the idea of killing the pups. Bran wanted them to be alive more than any of them, probably, because he is a child, but who knows. Robb didn't want them to be killed as well. In the end, I admit, it was Jon who made his father change his mind.

In addition, I would say that all of the 6 Stark children have at least some abilities (even Sansa) as they all have got direwolves and have magical connection or some kind of bond with them. For some reason, Bran is the strongest, may be because of his injured body. Arya and Jon have shown a strong bond with their wolves, but it seems Bran does his skinchanging a lot easier and more naturally than either of them from the very beginning . I also think that Rickon is a strong warg as well. he is just too young, at least he is shown having the prophetical dreams as well, like Bran. May be is a dreamer like Jojen.

Old Gods are sacred for Jon (probably, because he wasn't a half Tully and he only knew his Father), as Tyrion said that there is "more North in him than in any of his half brothers" and something similar about his looks was said by Catlyne as well, when she compared her sons and Jon. (Accidentally, none of this characters considered comparing Jon and Arya.) That is symbolic: Jon=Ghost (white with red eyes)=Old Gods. Some say Snow-white wolf also is symbolic. But after BR appeared in the cave... I would say Ghost somehow is connected to BR (Old Gods worshiper himself). So may be the fact that it was Jon, who made his father change his mind is also symbolic, showing the strong connection of Old Gods with Jon.

By the way, there are few Blackwood ancestors in Stark family...few Kings and Lords were married to Blackwood women. I find this house very intriguing.

[WeaselPie]

Mama Direwolf being BR's companion is an interesting notion. But what has always been a more interesting notion to me is who fathered the pups. We know Ghost is no "normal" direwolf, compared to, say, Lady.

Mating wolf with wolf seems to be the "sin" here. IMO.

[TheSmallOther]

Mama Direwolf being BR's companion is an interesting notion. But what has always been a more interesting notion to me is who fathered the pups. We know Ghost is no "normal" direwolf, compared to, say, Lady.

Mating wolf with wolf seems to be the "sin" here. IMO.

I can only guess (although I have no facts and saw no hints or assumptions) that instead of being Mama's companion, BR warged into male direwoolf and ... Most likely he is only responsible for Ghost. But it's only a wild guess.