Zoë Sumra Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 ok i agree with this, though some past illnesses could make flying a non-viable option...and i completely agree that money issues should not be the issue. airlines should be happily willing to pay pilots, hire enough pilots and provide health exams both physical and mental free of charge...i am sure it would be worth it in the long run...though how to make companies care more about these issues than their bottom line is a thread all on its own and thank you for your thoughts...you force me to think...something i forget to do now and again ;)You've missed the biggest money issue: time off at full pay till a clean bill of health is obtained. Depression comes and goes. Last autumn I had my worst batch of it for thirteen years. During that period I probably shouldn't have operated heavy machinery. In the intervening period? A-ok.Also the sporadic nature of the copilot's most serious reported issues doesn't rule out a bad reaction to SSRIs. It wouldn't be the first time a person who ordinarily wouldn't hurt anyone committed murder after taking Prozac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solmyr Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I am not opposed to subjecting pilots to mental exams. But then what? What results would constitute banning the pilot from flying? A suicidal person =/= a person, who would crash a bus/plane, killing innocents with him. Most suicidal people actually go to great lengths to mitigate the suffering of others, especially close ones. I'm no psychologist, but it seems to me one needs to be a special mix of a sociopath and nihilist to crash a plane with so many inside. Being suicidal is not even a necessary condition for that. There are hundreds of suicides daily, yet how many take others with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyron Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Also the sporadic nature of the copilot's most serious reported issues doesn't rule out a bad reaction to SSRIs. It wouldn't be the first time a person who ordinarily wouldn't hurt anyone committed murder after taking Prozac. I was just thinking about the medications. We don't even know if he was accurately diagnosed. And I agree with those saying neither depression nor being suicidal explains the action of the co-pilot, if have been unclear about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I would certainly agree that depression by itself is an extremely inadequate label for this particular person. You would seem to have the extremely rare combination of a depressed sociopath here. So barring pilots from flying when depression is the ONLY diagnosis is unwarranted based on this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I am not opposed to subjecting pilots to mental exams. But then what? What results would constitute banning the pilot from flying? A suicidal person =/= a person, who would crash a bus/plane, killing innocents with him. Most suicidal people actually go to great lengths to mitigate the suffering of others, especially close ones. I'm no psychologist, but it seems to me one needs to be a special mix of a sociopath and nihilist to crash a plane with so many inside. Being suicidal is not even a necessary condition for that. There are hundreds of suicides daily, yet how many take others with them? Yes, this, thanks for stating that. There were times, 15 or 20 years ago, when I was really depressed and despairing, and sometimes it felt like the only thing that stopped me from attempting suicide was the thought of how much it would devastate my mother and my family. Depression and suicidal thoughts alone aren't enough to compel someone to murder 150 other people. There's something else going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 This is a topic that has gotten a lot of scrutiny on various news shows. Originally the news came out that you could hear screams for the last few minutes on the cockpit voice recorder, but the last I heard was that screams could be heard for 7 minutes. Yet the co-pilot remained calm, his breathing unchanged. The diagnosis I've heard is that he had likely gone into a detached state, leaving him remote from what was going on behind the cockpit door. I have no background in psychology at all, the closest I can come up with by searching the web was depersonalization-derealisation syndrome, a neurotic disorder that most of us might feel mild symptoms of for brief periods of time in our lives, but in an extended and intense form is quite rare. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 This is a topic that has gotten a lot of scrutiny on various news shows. Originally the news came out that you could hear screams for the last few minutes on the cockpit voice recorder, but the last I heard was that screams could be heard for 7 minutes. Yet the co-pilot remained calm, his breathing unchanged.The diagnosis I've heard is that he had likely gone into a detached state, leaving him remote from what was going on behind the cockpit door. I have no background in psychology at all, the closest I can come up with by searching the web was depersonalization-derealisation syndrome, a neurotic disorder that most of us might feel mild symptoms of for brief periods of time in our lives, but in an extended and intense form is quite rare.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder Is it genuinely too far out to suggest that the guy was just a murderer, instead of someone who fell victim to a convoluted exhibition of a rare disorder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Is it genuinely too far out to suggest that the guy was just a murderer, instead of someone who fell victim to a convoluted exhibition of a rare disorder? Ah, that depends on whether or not you believe that a 'normal' person could murder someone, doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Is it genuinely too far out to suggest that the guy was just a murderer, instead of someone who fell victim to a convoluted exhibition of a rare disorder? I'm much more inclined to believe he was just a murderer. But of course, that makes all of this talk of extra scrutiny for pilots moot because there really isn't much we can do about this other than making sure two people are in the cockpit at all times. Plus, people like to have something to rail against and mental illness is an easy scapegoat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoë Sumra Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Is it genuinely too far out to suggest that the guy was just a murderer, instead of someone who fell victim to a convoluted exhibition of a rare disorder?Your average "just a murderer", if there is such a thing, wants to remain alive afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Wow, what is it about this story and the press? The leaks have just gone on and on. It is now reported a passenger took a video of everything that went on and the memory card in the camera survived the crash. I am amazed at the number of leaks. The investigators and the prosecutor have been moving so quickly, yet the leaks still keep happening. What a shitty story to get out into the public before meetings with family could be held. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 It's Germany. Bild is involved. Of course there are leaks. Usually very minor leaks that get blown way out of proportion by Bild, as they extrapolate each and every sentence to fit their agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 The latest rumour is that a second video from the plane is out there somewhere. I hope that if a paper or a tv station tries to show anything like that, or tell stories about what they've seen, the French prosecutor goes after them and nails their ass to a wall, along with the ass of the rescue worker who found the camera or cell phone on the mountain side and sold it to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarich Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 The most interesting news comes from Lufthansa, as they confirm that the co-pilot had in fact told them that he had been in treatment for a severe depression before obtaining his flight permission and passing the Lufthansa health checks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solmyr Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 The most interesting news comes from Lufthansa, as they confirm that the co-pilot had in fact told them that he had been in treatment for a severe depression before obtaining his flight permission and passing the Lufthansa health checks. What's so interesting about this? There are plenty of pilots, who have been treated for depression at some point in their lives. Most likely plenty of pilots, who still suffer from depression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 What's so interesting about this? There are plenty of pilots, who have been treated for depression at some point in their lives. Most likely plenty of pilots, who still suffer from depression. Probably 'interesting' in the sense that he didn't try to hide it from Lufthansa, not that they ought to have done something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solmyr Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Probably 'interesting' in the sense that he didn't try to hide it from Lufthansa, not that they ought to have done something about it. Well if he knew they wouldn't have done anything about it, why hide it? Besides, it is unlikely that he was planning to crash a plane when he was diagnosed, therefore it would avail him little to hide it. I guess if airlines began discriminating against or even banning pilots with depression and other mental disorders it might cause people to start hiding those conditions. This would only worsen matters, ofc, thus I hope this incident does not trigger such a reaction from airlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I was more referring to the persistent tale of the early days insisting that he had hidden 'vital medical information' from his employer. I'll wait for the conclusion of the investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Whether or not Lufthansa was negligent in allowing him to fly (regarding his history of depression) will likely be settled by a court somewhere. However, I have heard a number of pilots comment that there's no way someone with just 600 hours flying time would be allowed to sit in the seat beside the pilot in North America, that the airlines wouldn't have given the job to someone with less than 1500 hours flying experience. With Germanwings being their discount airline, Lufthansa was likely looking for pilots who could be paid the bottom of the scale. That's an issue for sure in North America as well. Some of the horror stories from pilots about the way they are treated by airlines these days make you wonder. Stories about 6 or 8 pilots bunking in together in a one bedroom apartment because they didn't have enough money to have a place of their own near the hub of the airline they were flying for. Short notice and flying while exhausted. Crap like that. Then throw in depression.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarich Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Interesting, because it actually adds something to the picture and because it enters a new aspect into the discussion. Because now that we know that Lufthansa knew about the depression there are some interesting follow-up questions:- should Lufthansa have reacted other than they did (I don't think so, but I believe it's a valid question)- and if so: how? Lufhansa knew that he had severe depression, believed that it was "cured" (or treated), obviously decided that he was fit to fly and then (from all we know today) he decided to fly his plane into a mountain. Obviously, something went wrong with that person and the question is not only what went wrong, but how to prevent that. To me, it is self-evident that a depression in itself doesn't make you fly amok with a plane. Nor do I believe that we should put incentives on people who paid a lot of money for their pilot training to hide mental health issues. OTOH I believe that we can and should ask if Lufthansa offered this pilot enough in terms of support and help - knowing that he had a history of mental health issues. At the moment - from the little I know, I believe that the answer is yes and that we are simply dealing with something so rare that there's probably no way we can really prevent it from happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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