[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 2

[messem]

Real character (the Fisherman's daughter's son) if you believe Godric Borrell's story told to Davos....

I rephrase my question: was the name "John Snow Sisterton" ever mentioned in the novels?

Because I thought Godric told that Jon Snow was the son of a Sisterwoman? So, the theory is that Ned has a bastard we haven't seen him yet? Or isn't it? Sorry, I'm confused.

[Gerg Sknab]

I rephrase my question: was the name "John Snow Sisterton" ever mentioned in the novels?

Because I thought Godric told that Jon Snow was the son of a Sisterwoman? So, the theory is that Ned has a bastard we haven't seen him yet? Or isn't it? Sorry, I'm confused.

No, it is just my attempt to differeniate John Snow Tower of Joy (Lyanna's well documented bastard) and John Snow Sisterton (Eddard's documented bastard in ADWD) and you are correct we haven't seen him yet...

[messem]

No, it is just my attempt to differeniate John Snow Tower of Joy (Lyanna's well documented bastard) and John Snow Sisterton (Eddard's documented bastard in ADWD)

Ah, thank you.

[Veltigar]

Shadrich being just some dude would make the story somewhat less interesting as pretty much every real hedge knight would not exactly be eager to risk the wrath of the Lord Protector of the Vale - and all the Vale Lords - while actually being in the Vale.

I think exactly the opposite. I understand that Varys is probably one of your favourite characters (nomen est omen after all), but a Varys ex machina would be rather tiresome. LF and Varys aren't omnipotent and I would like to see some characters with goals and motivations of their own, who aren't directly beholdend to either of the two masterplayers.

Shadrich being just a hedge knight turned bounty hunter would be a breath or fresh air and pretty realistic for this world. We have seen what the bounty on Tyrions head makes people do, so why wouldn't a man like that be after Sansa. The wrath of the Vale is really only a minor thing for Ser Shadrick, he only needs to worry about getting her out of there. That's the tricky part. Once he collects his reward, it's hardly his problem anymore. LF would be outed as a traitor and the Vale at large would do nothing, because to them Alayne would still remain Alayne. They don't know her as Sansa.

The reason why Ser Shadrick hasn't made his move yet is that he hasn't been able to think of a way to transport her out the Vale. Once he gets past the Vale, he's got a more than decent chance of cashing Sansa in, but the actual Vale is the tricky part. However, he's not named the Mad Mouse without a reason and men have been known to do crazier things for less gold than what he and his fellow conspirators are bound to make from Sansa's reward.

What Shadrich would do if he is just some guy is that he would send word to KL that Sansa Stark is in the Vale and posing as Littlefinger's bastard daughter. No idea, though, what Cersei in the height of her power or the Lannisters/Tyrells now would do with such an information. They are not in the shape to attack the Vale, and the outing of Sansa should actually strengthen Sansa's position due to the Stark cousins in the Vale.

The chances of Shadrick living to reap the benefits of selling out Sansa are rather limited in this way. First, he needs to get a message out to Cersei. Shadrick might be a mad mouse, but he isn't stupid. His message needs to travel a long way and if it gets intercepted (not unreasonable since LF is one of the most powerful men in Westeros), he's a dead man.

Secondly, there is also the very realistic possibility of Cersei not believing him. After all, LF has always been a loyal man who knew his place in life. Why would he harbor Sansa, after all, LF has only ever looked out for LF. If that happens, he's dead as well, since LF would like to tie up loose ends.

Thirdly, if he were to use a messenger, that messenger might conveniently forget about him when he delivers the news to Cersei. Or Cersei sends an agent to the Gates of the Moon to kill Sansa and then pays the reward for Sansa out to that guy.

Finally, if LF learns that KL knows and believes Shadrick, there is plenty of time for him te react. He could send Sansa over seas to Braavos. He could speed up his plans and reveal her true identity, bringing the Vale to revolt against the IT for her. He could do so many things and in neither of these situations does Ser Shadrick ever get payed. The only scenarios where he is sure of that bounty are the scenarios where he delivers Sansa bound and gaged before Cersei herself.

But there is no chance that Alayne would run away with anyone now. She seems to be quite happy with her situation or at least not afraid. The idea thst she is going to trust anyone ever again in a Dontos-like fashion makes no sense to me. And, honestly, who would want that. Chapters that end with Littlefinger and Sansa trying to take over the world are much more interesting than her on the road.

For now, I agree with you on this. It might change though, but the Sansa in this chapter is unlikely to run away with anyone. It would take something like LF disclosing the full extent of his villainy for such a plotchange to come about.

As to the food thing:

That is clearly a ploy to maximize the profits as well as to use the stored grain as leverage in the coming war and winter to get concessions/power. And if Littlefinger plays his cards right he could really try to buy the Iron Throne with grain.

:agree:

[Colonel Green]

Shadrich being just some dude would make the story somewhat less interesting as pretty much every real hedge knight would not exactly be eager to risk the wrath of the Lord Protector of the Vale - and all the Vale Lords - while actually being in the Vale.

I think it's much more realistic to see wildcard elements like Shadrich at work than for everything to flow back to a few people (which is why all the theories that try to assign essentially all events to somebody or other's master plan bug me).

But more specifically in this case, theories about Shadrich as some kind of secret agent are, to me, just not readily reconcilable with the context in which we meet him. If he's a dedicated agent of Varys (or whoever) meant to be monitoring Littlefinger, why is he wasting time serving as a merchant's bodyguard between King's Landing and Duskendale? Why try to recruit Brienne to join him?

[Veltigar]

I think it's much more realistic to see wildcard elements like Shadrich at work than for everything to flow back to a few people (which is why all the theories that try to assign essentially all events to somebody or other's master plan bug me).

But more specifically in this case, theories about Shadrich as some kind of secret agent are, to me, just not readily reconcilable with the context in which we meet him. If he's a dedicated agent of Varys (or whoever) meant to be monitoring Littlefinger, why is he wasting time serving as a merchant's bodyguard between King's Landing and Duskendale? Why try to recruit Brienne to join him?

:agree: Plus why would Varys need someone from the outside to monitor the Eyrie for him. Wouldn't Varys have his own informants in place, if he's really that big of an intelligence machine outside of KL? You know, spies who have been living in the Vale for several years and who do not look as suspicious as a newly arrived hedge knight.

[James Arryn]

Just started my first real read...skimmed first time, anxious to get to HtH.

A few notes so far:

1) General sense I haven't seen mentioned is that something important has just happened. First, LF is conferring with a man whose horse was 'lathered'. That means it was ridden hard and long, something that generally indicates some kind of urgency. Thereafter LF is nowhere to be found when his presence is expected, even by Sansa. My sense is that something has just happened, some kind of news or message or w/e that has taken precedence for him. I haven't gotten to the part where he does emerge from hiding, so maybe this will be explained away.

2) A couple more editorial issues, both of which bothered me first time too are the fact that SR talks about HtH as though they have been interacting when I don't think they have. He is supposed to be 'pretending' to care for SR, but how could he do that without seeing him? But I don't think he has.

The other is that when she firsts meets HtH and the Waynwoods Lady Waynwood nods to indicate 'the one who had spoken' but no one but her had opened his mouth.

3) Upon re-read, HtH's first line is not just rude re: bastard, but probably even more centred on Littlefinger's bastard.' The specficication of her father, esp. by his nickname, imo indicates that's at least as much of a problem for him as her legitimacy.

4) Still brief, but what interaction HtH has with the Waynwoods seems cold and prickly; I don't think this is a 'second family' situation, but rather a cash cow and dairy farmer deal. There's this sense that wardship means a supportive parental bond, but while that did often happen it was much more commonly an exploitative relationship. People would bid for the rights to important warships the way companies bid for contracts. Some of that was based on controlling betrothals, but there was also the matter of controlling the incomes. That often meant diverting them.

5) The Sisterfolk are talked about enough that it might be significant. More, a lot of their reputation sounds a lot like the way people speak of the Reeds and other natives of the Neck; don't fight properly, are vaguely inhuman, weak and strange. Not saying HR is there, but if he is and he's not the MM, I'd look among the Sisterfolk. Or if this is Harehall II, I'd assume they will play the Reed role.

6) It amazes me that Sansa goes on about being called a bastard without once recalling how she used to talk about Jon. Tbh when Harry first speaks I expected some later Jon-ponderings in Sansa, but nope. I actually prefer the omission from a sense of being less formulaic, but in terms of what it says about her as a character, kind of interesting lack of perspective.

She also uses the term 'father' internally now when thinking about LF with no hesitation. I know many people wanted to see her becoming more independant, but my sense is that she has gone much more in the other direction. His is the voice in her head now, and it's not even a conscious thing anymore.

7) a lot of people seem to like Sweetrobin more in this version. I don't get it. Sure, he isn't a moron, but I never really thought he was. The sense that he's older but still very much a whingging twerp was dissapointing imo. This is a mini-Stannis deal for me; people who constantly bitch about what they want/get annoy the fuck out of me...they're as self-centred and unsympathetic as people get, and yet many ASOIAF readers seem to find it appealing. The fact that SR really, really, really likes Sansa does not make him more endearing to me. Selfish people often really really really want w/e they want. I have yet to see SR think about what anyone else wants. He could still do a Teddy Roosevelt, but the window is closing.

8) I am always surprised when I remember Lynn Corbray is supposed to be physically attractive. In my mind's eye I have him down as a comb-over muscular Karl Pilkington type, dunno why.

9) I again get the general sense that Sansa is very much re-emerging as a scarred version of the girl she was before the be-Neding. Wiser and harder, but with the same general concerns and interests.

10) Someone is about to die.

[Wmarshal]

1) General sense I haven't seen mentioned is that something important has just happened. First, LF is conferring with a man whose horse was 'lathered'. That means it was ridden hard and long, something that generally indicates some kind of urgency. Thereafter LF is nowhere to be found when his presence is expected, even by Sansa. My sense is that something has just happened, some kind of news or message or w/e that has taken precedence for him. I haven't gotten to the part where he does emerge from hiding, so maybe this will be explained away.

It may have to do with Aegon's invasion, something I imagine he would want to keep as hidden from the pro Robert Valeman as a reborn Rhaegar.

[Veltigar]

5) The Sisterfolk are talked about enough that it might be significant. More, a lot of their reputation sounds a lot like the way people speak of the Reeds and other natives of the Neck; don't fight properly, are vaguely inhuman, weak and strange. Not saying HR is there, but if he is and he's not the MM, I'd look among the Sisterfolk. Or if this is Harehall II, I'd assume they will play the Reed role.

I think far more relevant than the fact that the three brothers are Sisterfolk is the family from which they hail. They are Sunderlands, a house notorious for its support of the Blackfyre cause. If we are going to get some Daenerys - Faegon - Lannister/Tyrell struggles in the future, a named Sunderland character could be an interesting minor character.

Anyway, I don't think this tourney will have a mystery knight like Harrenhal had. All the eager young knights are there already and Sansa sure as hell isn't donning any armour anytime soon. There could be a Mountain Clan character or the Blackfish showing up as mystery knight, but that's basically it and neither of those scenarios is very likely imo.

[Slowpoke Martin]

Shadrich just being who he says he is should be more than enough. If he manages to take Sansa and invoke LF's wrath it would be great. Not every insignificant little character has to be a pawn for someone else, that just cheapens the entire story.

[Karmarni]

I find Sansa's return to her conceited ways off-putting. She is self-satisfied with her cleverness in coming up with the tourney, she is offended to be called a bastard, her:

Alayne raised her head. “More beautiful than me?”

is also smug.

She's happy, and that is good to see. But I agree with others here that this seems to be leading to some kind of disaster.

It is a shame that she is willing to play the role Littlefinger has assigned her, his highborn puppet (I'd say whore, but she's not there yet). Littlefinger says:

Bringing Harry here was the first step in our plan, but now we need to keep him, and only you can do that. He has a weakness for a pretty face, and whose face is prettier than yours? Charm him. Entrance him. Bewitch him.

What are the next steps in the plan? Does she know them? Flirting with a man who likes to tumble women leads to sex, which can lead to pregnancy.

I wish that Sansa didn't play along with Littlefinger's by-the-numbers rules for flirting so much that she repeats the advice exactly. What else will Littlefinger require of her that she might repeat exactly?

If Sansa was a young woman I knew I'd be all over her with warnings that this did not sound like a good game plan. Especially if she didn't know if she even liked the guy.

Of course, having to play along with Littlefinger at all sucks. But she could have chosen to be less accommodating to his desires.

[FreeParking]

I find Sansa's return to her conceited ways off-putting. She is self-satisfied with her cleverness in coming up with the tourney, she is offended to be called a bastard, her:

is also smug.

She's happy, and that is good to see. But I agree with others here that this seems to be leading to some kind of disaster.

It is a shame that she is willing to play the role Littlefinger has assigned her, his highborn puppet (I'd say whore, but she's not there yet). Littlefinger says:

What are the next steps in the plan? Does she know them? Flirting with a man who likes to tumble women leads to sex, which can lead to pregnancy.

I wish that Sansa didn't play along with Littlefinger's by-the-numbers rules for flirting so much that she repeats the advice exactly. What else will Littlefinger require of her that she might repeat exactly?

If Sansa was a young woman I knew I'd be all over her with warnings that this did not sound like a good game plan. Especially if she didn't know if she even liked the guy.

Of course, having to play along with Littlefinger at all sucks. But she could have chosen to be less accommodating to his desires.

This brings me to one of my biggest problems with this chapter: Why is Sansa not just helping Littlefinger with his plot, but she is doing it so eagerly? She was apprehensive of ever marrying again in her last AFFC chapter, but now she is coming up with schemes (the tourney idea was her's) on her own to help him? Why?

[juanml82]

I find Sansa's return to her conceited ways off-putting. She is self-satisfied with her cleverness in coming up with the tourney, she is offended to be called a bastard, her:

is also smug.

She's happy, and that is good to see. But I agree with others here that this seems to be leading to some kind of disaster.

It is a shame that she is willing to play the role Littlefinger has assigned her, his highborn puppet (I'd say whore, but she's not there yet). Littlefinger says:

What are the next steps in the plan? Does she know them? Flirting with a man who likes to tumble women leads to sex, which can lead to pregnancy.

I wish that Sansa didn't play along with Littlefinger's by-the-numbers rules for flirting so much that she repeats the advice exactly. What else will Littlefinger require of her that she might repeat exactly?

If Sansa was a young woman I knew I'd be all over her with warnings that this did not sound like a good game plan. Especially if she didn't know if she even liked the guy.

Of course, having to play along with Littlefinger at all sucks. But she could have chosen to be less accommodating to his desires.

Well, this isn't the modern world. Sansa's flirtation with Harry has nothing to do with romance or relationships of any sort. It's part of a political machination, of which she is a willing participant.

Why is she participating, well, that's a good question. I think there are several options:

She submitted herself to Littlefinger wishes, for whatever reasons (threats from LF, praises from LF, genuine feelings for him, threats from the outside world, something else)

She's confident in Tyrion's long term survival, so she sees no problem in playing along, as the marriage isn't happening anyway

She changed her mind regarding marriages, and/or she realized this match is about her wanting Harry for his claim instead of Harry wanting her for her claims, which he doesn't seem to know about.

She's already planning in ditching Littlefinger, and getting married to Harry is instrumental for her plans

She believes she's now living a "real life song" in which schemers win

Any other ideas?

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Another Alayne/Sansa chapter that I didn't really have any particular interest in, but then I come to this thread and realize there's all these little potential plots hiding under the surface and I'm excited. I just hope this is a setup to some huge plot development that will occur in the near future and not just one of many plodding chapters that slowly drags on and on.

I wasn't a big fan of Sansa initially. I'm an Arya supporter to the bone. As I have stated though. the Sansa fans have me intrigued with where her story might be going . I just hope they're optimism isn't in vain. But hey, what do I know? My little wolf might end up being taken out by the company she decided to keep.

[Grail King]

Maybe she is doing it to keep drawing LF in a way that he keeps trusting her until she can use stuff against him.

But things may go awry soon and someone of importance may die, my guess HTH, why?

1. Sansa says she wants him to break his neck in her thoughts ( remember Janos Slynt and Joffery).

2. I would not be surprised if Baleish set this tourney up to get HTH knocked off.

3. SR could do something stupid.

and 4. Shit happens.

Sansa will then be removed from the Vale, and where she ends up I don't know but a face to face with LSH could happen.

ETA: forgot or it could be whom ever Sansa choose to wear her favor.

[Ghosts Lunch]

I cant speak for that poster specifically, but generally i have noticed a lot of people are upset with this chapter because so many characters are acting out of character. Sansa, Mya Stone, Myranda Royce to name three.

Good grief, this is the issue with it being out there so long

People think about it, but then they go from thinking to attachment

Characters, like people - change and mature given their circumstances - oh wow

Sansa has to adjust from being an always highly esteemed trueborn from a highly esteemed House, especially in the north where House Stark is rather autonomous and the centre of the universe for many northerners. HtH rudeness is about her being "Littlefingers Bastard" as much as being a bastard in general, it is borne out of HtH rightfully being suspicious of LF and as he said he expected her to look a bit like him and by extension be a little like him

As for Sansa/Sandor shipping, the kiss is probably the other side of this Gulltown maid song which is perhaps being prophetic, on top of that the relationship between the two isn't likely to be romance but warg as Sandor is a replacement for Lady. Did Jon always mention Ghost, or Arya Nymeria? Indeed there's times Arya is adjusting focus to Cats, and in this chapter as Alayne persona I reckon Sansa is adjusting to Bats or winged creatures and the focus is off Dogs for the moment.

Wasn't Alayne told to be weary around Myranda Royce

Mya Stone is used to being around the Vale and Eyrie when Jon Arryn, Lysa Arryn and Sweetrobin are all in KL, so she simply isn't used to having to deal with them. TBF Lysa and by extension SR are actually quite tricky to deal with as Tyrion, Catelyn and Sansa all learned to varying degrees so it's hardly surprising Mya Stone isn't sure-footed around SR at all

This is the issue with the chapter being out of ADwD, we waited so long for HtH and then he's a jerk, but only a jerk initially which people seem to fail and are being overly critical

Maybe this is where the controversy is, it's an innocuous chapter but people seem to be getting precious and want character development frozen in time, character development is going to move very very fast in WoW

As for Sweetrobin, he seems to have the opposite temperament to Tommen I have noticed, he will obviously be far too young to actually try and marry Alayne for the duration and Sansa will be moving on to Harrenhall IMO before too long but I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes possessive. I reckon he will be an anti-Tommen and anti-Bran rolled into one. I liked that this chapter showed he is more perceptive than given credit for and I reckon he will end up being a maniac of some kind,

[Ghosts Lunch]

I believe on his NAB he said this was taken from his Wordstar (or whatever that thing is called). But, if it was supposed to be in ADWD but his editor cut it, surely his editor would have a copy already, fully edited? But yeah, I'd have thought something from 2010 would have been edited by now.

They probably do, but it was probably easier just to dig it up from his own computer rather than asking the publishers?

[Ghosts Lunch]

I find Sansa's return to her conceited ways off-putting. She is self-satisfied with her cleverness in coming up with the tourney, she is offended to be called a bastard, her:

is also smug.

She's happy, and that is good to see. But I agree with others here that this seems to be leading to some kind of disaster.

It is a shame that she is willing to play the role Littlefinger has assigned her, his highborn puppet (I'd say whore, but she's not there yet). Littlefinger says:

What are the next steps in the plan? Does she know them? Flirting with a man who likes to tumble women leads to sex, which can lead to pregnancy.

I wish that Sansa didn't play along with Littlefinger's by-the-numbers rules for flirting so much that she repeats the advice exactly. What else will Littlefinger require of her that she might repeat exactly?

If Sansa was a young woman I knew I'd be all over her with warnings that this did not sound like a good game plan. Especially if she didn't know if she even liked the guy.

Of course, having to play along with Littlefinger at all sucks. But she could have chosen to be less accommodating to his desires.

I have an open mind as it's early days but but the way I saw it she took notice of Littlefingers advice and started doing her own thing slightly

Eg Littlefinger tells Alayne to get HtH to like her, instead she starts throwing his rudeness back in his face and making fun of his mistresses and the child names etc which some could find highly offensive and for mine seemed a little Tyrionesque, and then she's going out of her way to give her favour to someone else. HtH didn't find it offensive and ironically seemed to get a new found respect for her out of it

[Ghosts Lunch]

Well, it seems Ser Uther is either a brother or cousin to Ser Damon Shett, Knight of the Gull Tower. I don't know Ser Damon's age, but perhaps Uther is his son even. If Uther is the heir to Gull Tower, then the sigil described here should be canon. If not, it could very well be a personal sigil.

amused to note that Alayne I is already being cited on awoiaf.

Lol

Way I see this is it's a mock character for fun so he adjusts the sigil to a personal one to keep Utter Shit distinct from Gull Tower in a serious way

[Hos the Hostage]

I was surprised the way Sansa thought 'he doesn't have to love, me only like me, that would be enough'. It sounded as if Sansa herself, and not just LF is desperate to get the betorthal working. The last time we saw Alayne, she wasn't that eager to get married, to anyone.

Its as if there is a growing conflict or persona in her: now Alayne, now Sansa, Alayne again. Sansa should have remembered how bad Jon must have felt all the time he was called a bastard(not necessarily by Sansa - she called him half-brother), similar to Jaime thinking 'now I know how Tyrion felt all the time they laughed at him".

The tourney was a smart idea, but who is she playing the game for? really hope she has a plan for her own survival, or else she will lose her Stark identity slowly but completely. Arya has still got needle and Nymeria. But Sansa does not have any such connection. But I really liked how she appeared to be embracing her Stark identity to grow braver, from the day of her wedding to crossing the gates of the moon. But the girl we see in this chapter is more 'wicked' than brave. Characteristic of a protege of LF, so not very surprising.