[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 2

[butterbumps!]

Can anyone tell me why would mladen be upset about this chapter?

I haven't gone over the chapter with a fine tooth comb yet, but I don't really get why a Sansa fan would be upset about this chapter. In fact, it struck me as quite the opposite, actually. Did he express undue duress from this or something?

From what I read, I thought that everything in this chapter is pretty much in complete alignment with what Sansa enthusiasts have argued for from what I recall, including but not limited to:

1. Sansa isn't somehow forgetting that she's a Stark

2. Sansa is clever and gets social dynamics and politics, and is exerting some degree of control of herself

3. Sansa isn't buying what's being sold to her, especially from Lord Pissant

4. Sansa isn't denying her sexuality, but nor is she exclusively relying on it as an obvious manipulation tool

5. Sansa isn't "so vain and shallow" that she automatically falls for the pretty boy simply because he's pretty

6. The idea of Sansa's becoming Queen Bread is not so laughable in light of how the food stores are kind of a thing in this chapter.

[Lord Varys]

Ibbison,

Harrold Hardyng is already of age. The man is eighteen. Lady Anya does not have any true leverage over him unless we assume - which is quite likely - that Harrold does not have any land at all. From THK we know that the Hardyngs are a very minor house, and we don't know how much land he owns and how much money he has. He needs money to try to play the heir to the Eyrie.

If Harry is supposed to be murdered/discredited then Littlefinger should have no motive while Alayne is still his daughter. After all, by murdering her to Harry he would greatly profit from that not the other way around. But Sansa-Harry is essentially another thing.

Any faction knowing that another war is coming should ensure that the Vale does not back the wrong side. Varys would most likely send an agent into the Vale even if Littlefinger wasn't there. It would be very irritating if the Vale was truly this disconnected place where no faction had any spies. Varys must have regular spies there as well, but Shadrich could be an agent he and Illyrio trust enough to supervise their people there and ensure that nothing unforeseen happens.

Mithras,

oh, I don't think Varys needs Sansa for anything involving the Tyrells/Lannisters. The important thing in the Vale is to ensure that they don't stay neutral or back the wrong side.

[Mithras]

Mithras,

oh, I don't think Varys needs Sansa for anything involving the Tyrells/Lannisters. The important thing in the Vale is to ensure that they don't stay neutral or back the wrong side.

Sansa was a foolish child last time Varys saw her. Why should he leave the governance of the Vale to her?

[Mithras]

Dywen Shell and Jon Brightstone, both of whom claimed the title King of the Fingers, went so far as to pay Andal warlords to cross the sea, each thinking to use their swords against the other. Instead the warlords turned upon their hosts. Within a year Brightstone had been taken, tortured, and beheaded, and Shell roasted alive inside his wooden longhall. An Andal knight named Corwyn Corbray took the daughter of the former for his bride and the wife of the latter for his bedwarmer, and claimed the Fingers for his own (though Corbray, unlike many of his fellows , never named himself a king, preferring the more modest style of Lord of the Five Fingers).

A possible hint from the World Book that Lyn will turn upon Littlefinger.

[Lord Varys]

Varys would want the troops of the Vale on his side in the coming wars. Who governs the Vale is not as important as that the Vale musters his troops and chooses a side. Varys has no reason to kill Littlefinger yet. Only if he becomes a danger to his plans. But why not try use him for a change. Have him decide to back King Aegon VI to win even more favors and titles and possibly even a royal marriage, and only get rid of him afterwards? That's what I'd do.

As far as we know there is no evident connection between Varys/Illyrio and Aegon yet. This means that we have no reason to believe that Littlefinger can know or even suspect that Varys is behind Aegon. Even if he should know about the connection between Varys and Illyrio.

[DarkSister1001]

I'm glad we'll finally be able to answer the question about the giant that Sansa will slay, it's a gd lemoncake.

[Colonel Green]

Dywen Shell and Jon Brightstone, both of whom claimed the title King of the Fingers, went so far as to pay Andal warlords to cross the sea, each thinking to use their swords against the other. Instead the warlords turned upon their hosts. Within a year Brightstone had been taken, tortured, and beheaded, and Shell roasted alive inside his wooden longhall. An Andal knight named Corwyn Corbray took the daughter of the former for his bride and the wife of the latter for his bedwarmer, and claimed the Fingers for his own (though Corbray, unlike many of his fellows , never named himself a king, preferring the more modest style of Lord of the Five Fingers).

A possible hint from the World Book that Lyn will turn upon Littlefinger.

Aren't those parts of the book the sort of stuff that Elio and Linda basically came up with? They don't know what's going to happen next.

[Mithras]

Varys would want the troops of the Vale on his side in the coming wars. Who governs the Vale is not as important as that the Vale musters his troops and chooses a side. Varys has no reason to kill Littlefinger yet. Only if he becomes a danger to his plans. But why not try use him for a change. Have him decide to back King Aegon VI to win even more favors and titles and possibly even a royal marriage, and only get rid of him afterwards? That's what I'd do.

As far as we know there is no evident connection between Varys/Illyrio and Aegon yet. This means that we have no reason to believe that Littlefinger can know or even suspect that Varys is behind Aegon. Even if he should know about the connection between Varys and Illyrio.

LF is too dangerous to be relied on in any way. I think the invented TV show scenes for LF (I don't want a friend like me, or the chaos is a ladder monologue) catch the soul.

[Mithras]

Aren't those parts of the book the sort of stuff that Elio and Linda basically came up with? They don't know what's going to happen next.

I don't know. But in any case, Ran&Linda might have read more Sansa chapters than this one.

[PatrickStormborn]

I am happy to be proven right about the tapestries as I discussed starting from here. In short, LF used those tapestries to show that he has the full support of the IT at his back. Recall that the Lannister-Tyrell alliance seemed the undisputed winners of the Wot5K and the Lords Declarant could not defy the IT back then. This idea is further supported with Nestor telling everyone that those tapestries belonged to Bobby.

Well... not really. LF used them to bribe Nestor. That's about as much as we can infer.

In fact, Nestor doesn't even say they belonged to Robert - he just says they belonged to a "king".

I don't know. But in any case, Ran&Linda might have read more Sansa chapters than this one.

They've confirmed that they haven't.

[Veltigar]

All right some remarks on things I read in this thread and the previous one.

1) I don't get why people think that Harrold necessarily has to be a bad fighter. The term Lothor Brune uses for him is 'upjumped squire', we know Harrold got fasttracked to knighthood by Bronze Yohn, which can mean two things. Either Harrold is a damn great fighter who rightfully got promoted (which fits better with Bronze Yohn's honourable character imo) or he was knighted a few years to early. If the second option is true, he might be a bad fighter, but it's far more likely that he's a good fighter who just needs some time to mature and hit his full potential in this scenario.

2) This is something of the previous thread, but the idea that Saffran's father would hire a FM to off Harry or Alayne is quite ridiculous. We have been given no indication whatsoever that the FM are killing people for gold. In order to hire a FM, a customer has to give up the thing he or she loves most in this world, ergo if Saffran's father likes Saffran better than anything else, he would have to give her up to the FM in order to hire them to kill someone for him.

3) Shadrick is no agent of Varys imo. He's just a lowly hedge knight who became a bounty hunter and has struck gold. Varys is not omnipotent and he has so many balls in the ear that I don't see this as being another one. In the end not everything in the novels is determined by LF and Varys, people still have their own will. Plus, if Varys was truly behind this, I don't see any reason why he would not have acted on the information already. Sansa and the Vale are way to valuable to leave in LF's hands combined.

[HexMachina]

I don't know. But in any case, Ran&Linda might have read more Sansa chapters than this one.

Pretty sure Elio tweeted that he has only read one chapter - this one. (Le Cygne could probably confirm that for me, I know they brought the link to the tweet I am thinking of)

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

well, considering that GRRM has said Littlefinger is one of the characters the show runners changed the most I'd be sceptical about that. Littlefinger is hardly a joker-like character who wants to see the world born nor is chaos is only ladder. It is one of his ways to rise but it was merely a way for him to finally gain his great title and marry Lysa. Right now, he does not want any chaos - he has essentially said so himself in AFfC.

The show portrays Varys as the good plotter and Littlefinger as the evil plotter but reality is much more complex.

But I'd agree that if Varys came to the conclusion that Littlefinger posed a threat to Aegon he would take him out as soon as possible. Right now getting the swords of the Vale should be more important than getting rid of Littlefinger. Especially since Aegon arrived without Dany and her dragons.

TWoIaF is 99,9% George. The only stuff I know that's Elio/Linda's are certain maester names and book titles as well as the explanation why the Tullys were more powerful than the Bracken/Blackwoods. And even that is essentially George's stuff as he approved it.

Velt,

well, Varys should have grown-up agents working for him behind the scenes. The man wants to pull off some major coup and it is rather unrealistic that a fat man, a eunuch and a bunch of children should be able accomplish that all by themselves by using nothing but money, symbolism, and the public relations department.

I'm inclined to follow Tyrion's judgment that Jacelyn Bywater was Varys' man, and thus Shadrich can be, too.

[Mithras]

Well... not really. LF used them to bribe Nestor. That's about as much as we can infer.

LF first showed them to the Lords Declarant during the meeting. Now, through Nestor, he is still showing them to everyone at the Gates of the Moon.

In fact, Nestor doesn't even say they belonged to Robert - he just says they belonged to a "king".

I am sure that any person he approached would ask "which king?" if they already didnot see them in the KL.

They've confirmed that they haven't.

But still, this chapter alone shows that Lyn has the potential to betray LF.

[Alia of the knife]

A couple of quick take-aways on my read:

- Agreed that someone knows who Sansa is. Maybe even Harry.

- Her personna allows her some freedoms that she never had as her mothers dutiful daughter, (in reality she really was always Neds daughter in regards to duty). At times, she reminds me a bit of Arya, even as Arya may at some point use her "lady wiles" one day, which is why I think the Black Swann seems to figure into her path. They are slowly becoming two halves of the same person.

- SR seems a lot older and very aware. I also see a bit of a parallel, or a "back shadowing" into what LF may have been in his love for Cat.

- I think that LF is starting to get distracted as he is actually doing something now rather than have people run his affairs for him.

- He doesn't see Lyn coming.

[Veltigar]

On further thinking about the chapter I do find HtH's reaction to Alayne rather funny. I don't think it can be explained by a disdain for bastards. Realistically speaking, isn't Alayne kind of like the jackpot for him? If SR dies and he's made Lord of the Eyrie, none will care about the origin of his wife. After all, he would be the Arryn of the Vale then and they would all be to busy licking his boots.

However, if SR lives a long and healthy life and fathers heirs of his own, HtH has quite a poor life ahead of him. From the looks of him, he's pretty spoiled and if SR sires an heir he's done for. If he's married to Alayne by that time, he doesn't lose the standard of living he has become accustomed to. Quite the opposite most likely, LF has to be one of the richest men in Westeros right now. Just look how everyone is impressed by the tourney. Add to that that LF is also LP of the Riverlands, Lord of Harrenhal and a man with a vast network of political contacts.

As far as HtH knows, Alayne is his only child and LF seems very fond of her. If LF gets his royal buddies to legitimize her, HtH stands to marry the Lady of Harrenhal (who's also smoking hot). That's quite a contingency plan, I think pretty much every noble son in Westeros would like to be in his position.

Personally, I think HtH is rather cross with the idea of marrying Alayne because he wasn't consulted first and because he's probably very much under the influence of Bronze Yohn (who, if I'm not mistaken has more than one daughter, so presumably HtH thought he'd eventually marry a Royce girl).

[Mithras]

Mithras,

well, considering that GRRM has said Littlefinger is one of the characters the show runners changed the most I'd be sceptical about that. Littlefinger is hardly a joker-like character who wants to see the world born nor is chaos is only ladder. It is one of his ways to rise but it was merely a way for him to finally gain his great title and marry Lysa. Right now, he does not want any chaos - he has essentially said so himself in AFfC.

The show portrays Varys as the good plotter and Littlefinger as the evil plotter but reality is much more complex.

But I'd agree that if Varys came to the conclusion that Littlefinger posed a threat to Aegon he would take him out as soon as possible. Right now getting the swords of the Vale should be more important than getting rid of Littlefinger. Especially since Aegon arrived without Dany and her dragons.

TWoIaF is 99,9% George. The only stuff I know that's Elio/Linda's are certain maester names and book titles as well as the explanation why the Tullys were more powerful than the Bracken/Blackwoods. And even that is essentially George's stuff as he approved it.

Come on, Varys knows the evil schemes of LF more than anyone. Who truly killed Lord Eddard?

Varys would never trust LF.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Ibbison,

Harrold Hardyng is already of age. The man is eighteen.

That can't be true. If it were, he would be getting the dowery money, not Anya Waynwood. The source in the wiki calculation is the app, which is notoriously unreliable.

[Mithras]

About Harry's personality:

First of all, he is one of the most desirable bachelors in the Realm and he knows that. He thinks that he is the Lord of the Vale already. So, he has an extremely high opinion of himself. His womanizing probably stems from this arrogance too. He must be thinking that all the maids he comes by should open their legs for him because he is tall, handsome and heir to the Vale of Arryn.

Therefore, he should be quite pissed with Anya and LF's schemes to wed him to a bastard of a minor Lord.

Apart from this unhealthy arrogance (which is similar to AGoT-Jon who acted like a Stark although he was a Snow - a fact he is reminded by Tyrion sharply), Harry's attitude towards women is very disturbing.

[Alia of the knife]

On further thinking about the chapter I do find HtH's reaction to Alayne rather funny. I don't think it can be explained by a disdain for bastards. Realistically speaking, isn't Alayne kind of like the jackpot for him? If SR dies and he's made Lord of the Eyrie, none will care about the origin of his wife. After all, he would be the Arryn of the Vale then and they would all be to busy licking his boots.

However, if SR lives a long and healthy life and fathers heirs of his own, HtH has quite a poor life ahead of him. From the looks of him, he's pretty spoiled and if SR sires an heir he's done for. If he's married to Alayne by that time, he doesn't lose the standard of living he has become accustomed to. Quite the opposite most likely, LF has to be one of the richest men in Westeros right now. Just look how everyone is impressed by the tourney. Add to that that LF is also LP of the Riverlands, Lord of Harrenhal and a man with a vast network of political contacts.

And as far as HtH knows, Alayne is his only child and LF seems very fond of her. If LF gets his royal buddies to legitimize her, HtH stands to marry the Lady of Harrenhal (who's also smoking hot). That's quite a contingency plan, I think pretty much every noble son in Westeros would like to be in his position.

Personally, I think HtH is rather cross with the idea of marrying Alayne because he wasn't consulted first and because he's probably very much under the influence of Bronze Yohn (who, if I'm not mistaken has more than one daughter, so presumably HtH thought he'd eventually marry a Royce girl).

On the matter of female bastards of nobelmen, they actually did not bring the stigma, (or the threat), that males did, and could be quite useful prizes of their noble or royal fathers.

There is the case of King John marrying his natural daughter to Prince Llewelyn of Wales to unite the two nations. Then there was Gioffe Borgia who married Sancha of Aragon, the natural daughter of the king of Navarre, and of course the daughter of Kathryin Swynford with the John of Gaunt.