[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 2

[Bluetiger]

Is it just me or is George getting lazier with names? There wasn't anything original here, and heals of repeated names. Is that signyfying the eliteness and tightness of the Vale? But so many Jon's and Bens and similar.

The new houses though... Lipps is worst name.

So many "Jons" means that lords and people of the Vale had great respect and loyalty for Jon Arryn...

[Mithras]

The talk about the webbed fingers and toes of the Sistermen is also interesting. The Song is supposed to be more important than the Game but so far, George didn’t examine the Song as detailed as the Game. The World Book was a major boost to tell us what the series (A Song of Ice and Fire, not A Game of Ice and Fire) is really about.

Before the World Book, we could have never been so sure that interbreeding and hybrids are major parts of the Song. I studied the interbreeding references in the World Book extensively in many threads. What I find interesting is that there were already many references from the main series which are generally overlooked by us all.

[clair de lune]

Woah lots of new houses. Breakstone, and Lipps (god I hate that name), plus a heap of new house members.

Love this stuff.

And seriously, the whole King of the Vale vibe... GOTTA HAVE MORE KNIGHTS THEN TOMMEN!!! It's quality stuff.

The Shett's sigil is different to the one from the semi-canon sources, which bothers me. Perhaps it is a personal sigil?

Well, it seems Ser Uther is either a brother or cousin to Ser Damon Shett, Knight of the Gull Tower. I don't know Ser Damon's age, but perhaps Uther is his son even. If Uther is the heir to Gull Tower, then the sigil described here should be canon. If not, it could very well be a personal sigil.

amused to note that Alayne I is already being cited on awoiaf.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Oberyn slaps the mother of his child, takes the kid away and leaves her to drink herself to death out of grief. Great guy.

Robert sleeps with women and moves on. Monster! Harry sleep with a woman and says she's become fat (because she did). Monster!

Again: Garden variety douchebag =/= monster.

[Lee-Sensei]

Again: Garden variety douchebag =/= monster.

Whatevs. The point still stands. If's a double standard.

[messem]

Before the World Book, we could have never been so sure that interbreeding and hybrids are major parts of the Song. I studied the interbreeding references in the World Book extensively in many threads. What I find interesting is that there were already many references from the main series which are generally overlooked by us all.

These are breadcrumps for the observant reader. It's world building via local folklore and rumors. As the black stones from Ashai are. I'm pretty confident that these things will not be important.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Whatevs. The point still stands. If's a double standard.

It's a derail. Where do you get the idea that most people who're unimpressed by Harry would claim Oberyn is better?

[*ghosti-]

Exactly, and I don't really know what to make of Lyn in this chapter. He's either a great method actor, or...he's really pissed at LF

It's almost as if maybe Lyn doesn't like little boys and he just discovered the source of the rumor

[Facebookless Man]

Postmodern ethics are funny.

[*ghosti-]

Harry reminds me of Robert Baratheon.

I also think Robin will survive the series. Just a feeling.

I agree with all this.

I don't see Sansa wanting to be married to a womanizer any more than Lyanna did. I see Sansa as being most compatible personality wise with ... Gulp... Tyrion.

I see SR playing some pivital roll here. I think he will kill someone important.

[Le Cygne]

Spotted some parallels to Jeyne Poole, in a chapter where Littlefinger tells Sansa how to please men, and Sansa follows his instructions to the letter.

This is Jeyne talking about Ramsay:

“He knows who I am, though. Who I really am. I see it when he looks at me. He looks so angry, even when he smiles..."

And Sansa talking about Harry:

Harry was staring at her. He knows who I am, she realized, and he does not seem pleased to see me.

Littlefinger, when he's telling her about Harry:

Soft sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles.

Harry, as she's following Littlefinger's instructions to touch him:

And when he smiles, he has the nicest dimples.

[Mithras]

These are breadcrumps for the observant reader. It's world building via local folklore and rumors. As the black stones from Ashai are. I'm pretty confident that these things will not be important.

Who are the Others? What they want? Why are the seasons out of balance? What are the reasons of this new Long Night? and so on.

Do you think these questions will not be important?

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

I don't go with the both Robert-Harry murder plot but would rather assume that Littlefinger wants Sansa-Harry make a spare for Robert. After Sansa is pregnant/has delivered another heir there should no longer be any use for Harry. Murdering Robert before Harry or have both die at around the same time could cause to much suspicion.

And we should also consider the possibility that his sexual attraction to her will sort of cause problems for the Harry idea in general. He wants to marry Sansa, too.

But I'm completely on-board with Shadrich and his past as a mouse - possibly back in Pentos, back there the children may have kept their tongues. If Varys wanted to have a dagger in Littlefinger's camp that man would play the role of a hedge knight.

I could see that Shadrich's mission will be to ensure that the Vale will be end up joining Aegon. Say, by feeding Sansa information that will lead her plant the notion that the Vale should back this new pretender in Littlefinger's head. If Shadrich works for Varys then he long knows/suspected who Alayne was even before he arrived in the Vale. He does not need any proof nor is it likely that he'll try to abduct her.

Another part of the mission could be to try to drive a wedge between Littlefinger and Sansa - this could work by carefully plant information about Littlefinger's involvement in Ned's arrest/execution and other things Sansa has yet no clue about. I'm not sure she grasps what Lysa's mad confession actually implied as she has no idea that Ned accepted the appointment as Hand to find out the truth about Jon Arryn's death.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

a few random thoughts -

Harry's first words - It's absolutely no surprise at all that Harry would be thinking that he wanted nothing to do with LF's bastard daughter. The fact that he spoke those thoughts out loud is unexpected, as nobles are trained to be courteous. This means that either Harry is terribly impulsive, or he really wanted to make a point in front of everybody. His actions reflect badly on Anya Waynwood, and Harry doesn't seem to care. Which leads to ...

Wardship - There are several different types of wardship. Theon was a hostage, held to insure good behavior, as are many teens sent to court in KL. Ned and Robert's fostering with Jon Arryn is a second type, designed to promote friendship between houses and give heirs a broader view of the world.

Harry's wardship with Anya Waynwood is apparently of a third type. Harry's father is obviously dead. Until Harry comes of age and is able to fight, House Hardyng cannot fulfill its feudal duty of providing military service in exchange for land. Therefore, he is sent as a ward to another house, which provides the military service while Harry grows up. During that time, that other house (in this case House Waynwood) gets to exploit House Hardyng's holdings, since they are the ones providing the service.

Wardships like this were often abused in medieval Europe. Wardships of highborn orphans automatically fell to the Crown (or in this case House Arryn), who would auction them off to those who wished to drain them dry. Calls to end the abuse of wardships for rich minors were common, but the practice continued.

It's clear that Harry believes that Anya Waynwood is looking out for her own interests, not his, and resents it. He couldn't care less if his comments make Anya look bad. Embarrassing her in front of her peers is petty revenge for him. But she still holds leverage over him, so she can, in the end, manipulate him.

on LF's plans for Harry - Harry is a threat to LF. If SR dies and Harry inherits, Harry will dump LF in favor of Bronze Yohn in an instant, whether Harry has married Alayne or not. Best case scenario for LF is that SR survives. That gives LF another decade to rule the Vale. If SR dies, LF has to make sure Harry is already disposed of. The lordship of the Vale after SR and Harry is a jump ball, but LF will be in tight with the Gulltown Arryns, and his money will probably make the difference in bringing them the lordship. So the betrothal between Harry and Alayne is probably a trap for Harry. LF will expect Harry to try to take advantage of Alayne before the wedding. She will be rescued by Lothar Brune, and Harry will either be killed or sent to the Wall. Of course, that plan could be easily foiled if Sansa or Harry figures it out.

on Sansa's development - Sansa was very nervous about being able to maintain her Alayne persona in her last AFfC chapter. The moment on the mountain when she rescued SR seems to have been a major turning point for her; she has gained a great deal of confidence. However, LF is still leading her around by the nose. She still hasn't begun to defy him in any way. I won't believe Sansa is actually getting control over her own situation until she grows up and stops talking/thinking about her "tummy".

on LF's papers - LF is far too clever to leave anything laying about that could be a danger to him. If any paper was left unsecured, you can be sure it was intentional.

[bent branch]

You make a decent case from the books alone.

But if you take into consideration real world biology where we now know that men over 40 are less likely to produce the healthiest children as this and other articles explain http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/children-with-older-dads-at-greater-mental-illness-risk/

The more likely explanation is that Jon was much older than Lysa, and simply produced a less physically robust son.

I don't think so and it is the hair that makes me question it. We now know before Jon Arryn went grey he was a blond. For a woman with red hair and a blond man to have a brown haired child is unusual. Before I knew that Jon Arryn was blond I assumed that his coloring before he became grey was similar enough to Sweetrobin's that he didn't question the parentage. I thought he would be especially sensitive to this since he was investigating Cersei's children before his death. However, he may not have wanted to think to closely about this since he finally had a son. Yes, Sweetrobin could be small because he is sickly because his father was old. But he could also be small because his father is small. The hair color is what makes me question Sweetrobin's parentage.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I frankly think that Shadrich is nothing more than a bog-standard hedge knight looking to collect a bounty. There's no real reason to spin a complex tale about him.

[messem]

Who are the Others? What they want? Why are the seasons out of balance? What are the reasons of this new Long Night? and so on.

Do you think these questions will not be important?

Not all of them. Which ones will be important? I don't know. But I am 100% sure that not all questions will be answered.

[Mithras]

snip

I think Harry is the first one to die and soon. Sweetrobin should outlive him at least a year or two according to LF's plans.

I think the true value of Sansa for Varys's plans is that she is a key witness in undoing LF. If Varys can smuggle Sansa back to the KL, he can reveal the machinations of LF and the Tyrells and that would be the final nail to the coffin of the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. After removing LF, Varys reasonably hopes that fAegon will fill the power vacuum at the Vale.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

So many "Jons" means that lords and people of the Vale had great respect and loyalty for Jon Arryn...

Oh of course. The other names though, boring...

Well, it seems Ser Uther is either a brother or cousin to Ser Damon Shett, Knight of the Gull Tower. I don't know Ser Damon's age, but perhaps Uther is his son even. If Uther is the heir to Gull Tower, then the sigil described here should be canon. If not, it could very well be a personal sigil.

amused to note that Alayne I is already being cited on awoiaf.

Yeah I think I'll stick with the black and white checks with three golden gull wings for now. This chapter wasn't edited so something like that might be picked up.

I notice a distinct lack of Vale Freys in this chapter, and since they are the squires etc that's troubling. They're there to annoy Sansa, so why aren't they?

[Bluetiger]

Oh of course. The other names though, boring...

Yeah I think I'll stick with the black and white checks with three golden gull wings for now. This chapter wasn't edited so something like that might be picked up.

I notice a distinct lack of Vale Freys in this chapter, and since they are the squires etc that's troubling. They're there to annoy Sansa, so why aren't they?

Someone knows who Alayne really is and didn't want to anger her?

Maybe Littlefinger doesn't want them as they may be spying for Walder-Bolton or Lannisters?