John Doe Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Because we don't see any other father talking about his bastards this way with the possible other exception of Oberyn. In his extremely brief time on the page the author chooses to have him express something virtually no one else expresses. If you don't want to see that as exceptional, cool. Same thoughts. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I find the "out of character" comments amusing. Mya is acting funny because her ex is there and it's awkward. Makes perfect sense. Is not out of character. Myranda is acting like Myranda. Definitely not out of character. Sansa is playing the part of Alayne Stone. She's not supposed to act like herself. She was told to charm/captivate/enchant Harry, and she's doing that. Doing what she's told is par for the course where Sansa is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoSilentSister Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 It's exceptional he doesn't see them as a stain on his honor, he acknowledges them as what they are: his children. In Dorne we were told that this is exceptional everywhere in Westeros except for, well, Dorne. It's a stain on the honor for the woman. Ned and Robb feel bad about the whole thing, because they feel bad about _dishonouring_ women, because they have some degree of empathy. But can you point at one example in the whole series where a guy gets shamed for having a bastard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Same thoughts. :cheers:Lol, cheers. It's odd that his comments about children are insignificant while his superficial comments about women are definative. Presumably suoerficial comments about women are much more exceptional in Westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonjump05 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Harry shouldn't get too much credit for mentioning his bastards, Sansa did flat out ask him about them. Besides, out of sight bastards are excepted for noblemen. So, yeah, not all that impressed with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonjump05 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Dp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 It's a stain on the honor for the woman. Ned and Robb feel bad about the whole thing, because they feel bad about _dishonouring_ women, because they have some degree of empathy. But can you point at one example in the whole series where a guy gets shamed for having a bastard? Many people mention "Ned is not that honorable since he has a bastard" so you can clearly see how it is considered some kind of a taboo, although, as most people in Westeros tend to break taboos, it is being done anyway, From Catelyns POV we can see she doesn't feel dishonored as a women at all by Ned having a bastard (she kinda expected it), the only thing she considers being dishornoring is that Ned takes him to Winterfell. So no, it's not about them having emathy with the women, as is hinted by statements of the women involved. Both Cersei and Catleyn would prefer Harry's actions over Neds', or Roberts' intentions of bringing his bastard to the capital. That argument backfired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Rod Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Oberyn hit a woman, took her daughter away and showed no remorse when mentioning she later died pretty much because of that- that' the worst thing we had in this regard so far.. And still especially female readers appearently like Oberyn, I don't get it. Instead people hate Robert and already call Harry "Horrible Harry", before he even made it to his second chapter. He never mentioned Obara's mom. That was Obara herself that showed no remorse. Why should he have shown her particular affection? She was a whore he'd paid to lose his virginity. And on that note, he had every right to take HIS child out of the whorehouse, where in time she'd have taken up that trade, and take her to Sunspear where she could be raised practically as a princess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoSilentSister Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Because we don't see any other father talking about his bastards this way with the possible other exception of Oberyn. In his extremely brief time on the page the author chooses to have him express something virtually no one else expresses. If you don't want to see that as exceptional, cool. Why would guys in this series have much occasion to talk about their feelings for their bastards? They are rarely called to justify themself. Harry expresses it, because Sansa brings up the topic. The exceptional thing here is that she addresses it in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Lol, nicely done. It's one of those kinda days. Do you mean Harry? He didn't change fast, the impression we got was another character talking about him, that's not the same as actually meeting him. edit: Ah, I see what you mean. Still, it was less of a change than him just being mean once, that doesn't have to mean that's how he usually behaves. Yeah, but it was quick(er than normal ahole character) turn around. I'm glad we didn't have to wait chapters for it. I LOVED that Sansa flat out asked about his bastards. She reminded me of Lyanna when she did that. I find the "out of character" comments amusing. Mya is acting funny because her ex is there and it's awkward. Makes perfect sense. Is not out of character. Myranda is acting like Myranda. Definitely not out of character. Sansa is playing the part of Alayne Stone. She's not supposed to act like herself. She was told to charm/captivate/enchant Harry, and she's doing that. Doing what she's told is par for the course where Sansa is concerned. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 He never mentioned Obara's mom. That was Obara herself that showed no remorse. Why should he have shown her particular affection? She was a whore he'd paid to lose his virginity. And on that note, he had every right to take HIS child out of the whorehouse, where in time she'd have taken up that trade, and take her to Sunspear where she could be raised practically as a princess. Sorry, you're right, Obara talked about it. Still, hitting her and than taking the child away is worse than anything Harry has done so far. Or do you think violence against whores is okay because you paid them previously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Why would guys in this series have much occasion to talk about their feelings for their bastards? They are rarely called to justify themself. Harry expresses it, because Sansa brings up the topic. The exceptional thing here is that she addresses it in the first place.No, Sansa doesn't ask him. GRRM chooses to have Sansa ask him. GRRM has never before chosen to have it asked, or at least not often. Do you wonder why? None of this is just happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Why would guys in this series have much occasion to talk about their feelings for their bastards? They are rarely called to justify themself. Harry expresses it, because Sansa brings up the topic. The exceptional thing here is that she addresses it in the first place. Usually you don't talk about your bastards. There is a reason why most people don't take their bastards to their home castle. Ned is the exception, but it's probably not his bastard anyway. It's like a penis: Pretty much every lord has one, but you don't wave it around in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoSilentSister Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Many people mention "Ned is not that honorable since he has a bastard" so you can clearly see how it is considered some kind of a taboo, although, as most people in Westeros tend to break taboos, it is being done anyway, From Catelyns POV we can see she doesn't feel dishonored as a women at all by Ned having a bastard (she kinda expected it), the only thing she considers being dishornoring is that Ned takes him to Winterfell. So no, it's not about them having emathy with the women, as is hinted by statements of the women involved. Both Cersei and Catleyn would prefer Harry's actions over Neds', or Roberts' intentions of bringing his bastard to the capital. That argument backfired. Please. Much of Catelyn's animosity towards Jon was about her feeling it reflected badly on her (Cersei considered her a doormat for accepting the situation; and Catelyn must have been well aware that many would view it that way). But I agree that that's not about "dishonor" precisely. Of course to woman primarily dishonoured by the bastard is the unwed mother, not the cheated wife. In the novel Robb's expressed motivation for his disastrous marriage is the wish not to dishonour Jeyne Westerling. It's true that I might have forgotten some instances about people snickering a bit about Ned's holier-than-though attitude in the view of his own bastard, but that's usually a pretty transparent defensive move of people who feel judged by him. It doesn't actually affect this social standing in the slightest. You get the strong impression that for the guy it's viewed as a cavalier's delict, a minor misdemanour, a sign that he's only all too human after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Yeah, but it was quick(er than normal ahole character) turn around. I'm glad we didn't have to wait chapters for it. I LOVED that Sansa flat out asked about his bastards. She reminded me of Lyanna when she did that. Lyanna should have told that to Robert himself, hence the chance for the poor soul to talk marvels about Mya and get his awwww moment...I guess Ned knew more about him than the man himself... good on you Lyanna :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Lyanna should have told that to Robert himself, hence the chance for the poor soul to talk marvels about Mya and get his awwww moment...I guess Ned knew more about him than himself... good on you Lyanna :thumbsup: Word. Sansa has more balls than wolf-blood Lyanna. I still can't help but getting a very Tourney of Harrenhal vibe when I read this chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Please. Much of Catelyn's animosity towards Jon was about her feeling it reflected badly on her (Cersei considered her a doormat for accepting the situation; and Catelyn must have been well aware that many would view it that way). I'll quote it tomorrow since I don't have the books here now, but Catelyn explicitly states that she doesn't mind Ned having a bastard much and him taking Jon to Winterfell is the bigger issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoSilentSister Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Usually you don't talk about your bastards. There is a reason why most people don't take their bastards to their home castle. Ned is the exception, but it's probably not his bastard anyway. It's like a penis: Pretty much every lord has one, but you don't wave it around in public Of course, Harry has no wife to get on his case about it so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Of course, Harry has no wife to get on his case about it so far. He promised Sansa not to take the bastard with him, I guess we can go with that statement until it is proven he lies about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoSilentSister Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I'll quote it tomorrow since I don't have the books here now, but Catelyn explicitly states that she doesn't mind Ned having a bastard much and him taking Jon to Winterfell is the bigger issue. As I already said, I agreed that Catelyn's issues are not about dishonour precisely. But again, it's not Catelyn who's the main issue here. The dishonored woman is the unwed mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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