[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 2

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

To address the bolded, are you saying people who are fat for other reasons are more worthy of judgment/scorn?

No, I'm saying that Harry was a jerk for calling his paramour fat in a scornful way, because it was HIS doing that she was pregnant. Women don't get pregnant through parthenogenesis. If someone has your child, I think one owes them a bit more respect than that.

[Good Guy Garlan]

It would be so awesome seeing Lynn killing Harry as an ultimate fuck you to LF and his plans. I'd like to see his face.

His big mistake is imho that he underestimates how different people can be, which might eventually backfire. Maybe Lynn does care about more than just little boys and gold.

Exactly, and I don't really know what to make of Lyn in this chapter. He's either a great method actor, or...he's really pissed at LF

[Modesty Lannister]

Some people are willing to create a whole flimsy theory on a very vague word while others are willing to ignore clues which are presented very clearly and often.

Indeed and I cannot stop laughing, because I keep hearing it in the voice of Stannis due to your avatar. Thanks.

[NotSoSilentSister]

It's possible, but if so it's a very complicated situation; he seems VERY opposed to the idea, as do the social conventions. But supposing his objection outweighs his affection, I am asking what the mechanics of compulsion could be.

Lady Anya might have reminded him that he's only hot shit once Sweet Robin's dead, and that he maybe shouldn't rely too much on that happening so very soon. He doesn't have to marry Sansa on the spot, after all, but for the time being, humouring Littlefinger might be a good move. Show your good will, show that you're not a threat. Keep all options open, in case Sweet Robin sees old age after all. You don't have to commit to anything yet.

I think that would be a fairly reasonable approach, and in his better moments, even Harry himself might see some wisdom in it. But there's something deeply childish about the way he grudingly complies, dragging his feet. *Fine, MOM, but I'm not gonna like it." People give him credit for not being particularly enthusiastic about the idea of an alliance with Littlefinger, but honestly, if you don't trust someone, yet still toy with the idea of working with them for a while at least, the smart thing to do is to NOT SHOW that you don't trust them. To me, he mainly seem impulsive and indecisive here. Clearly someone who's not in a habit of thinking things through.

[John Doe]

True, most people do want a partner they are physically attracted to. (Not necessarily one who is conventionally attractive, just attractive to them.) That's reasonable.

Harry, however, is a douche and ought to be from House Massengill with a giant nozzle on his coat of arms. The mother of his child is fat because she had HIS child - class-y. :stillsick:

Compared to most lords he isn't that bad though. I agree, some are better, such as Eddard, Robb , and Garlan, but you can clearly see they are exceptional since they are clearly seen as more honorable, gallant etc. than most people. People like Tyrion, Robert or Oberyn are much worse.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I would say his comments on his bastards are much more exceptional than his comments on their mothers. I agree his comments on his mother are distasteful, but then people of both genders seem to place a lot of importance on physical appearance, including Sansa. Not so much garden variety as near universal human failng.

You're making too much of the bastard thing. As I said, Robert liked to get a bit sentimental about his bastards too, when he felt like it. He used to be quite cute with Mya, before it became too much of a hassle.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Compared to most lords he isn't that bad though. I agree, some are better, such as Eddard, Robb , and Garlan, but you can clearly see they are exceptional since they are clearly seen as more honorable, gallant etc. than most people. People like Tyrion, Robert or Oberyn are much worse.

It wasn't their fault, Tyrion had too much gold, Oberyn was educated since birth in a highly sexy culture, and Robert was the maiden's fantasy...

[John Doe]

Come on, people just don't want to see a newcomer coming close to their precious Sansa. If he hadn't talked about his bastards, people would say he's an asshole for forgetting about them.

[John Doe]

It wasn't their fault, Tyrion had too much gold, Oberyn was educated since birth in a highly sexy culture, and Robert was the maiden's fantasy...

Oberyn hit a woman, took her daughter away and showed no remorse when mentioning she later died pretty much because of that- that' the worst thing we had in this regard so far.. And still especially female readers appearently like Oberyn, I don't get it.

Instead people hate Robert and already call Harry "Horrible Harry", before he even made it to his second chapter.

[Modesty Lannister]

Am I the only one who thinks Harry came out as a nicer person than expected.

Genuinely caring for his bastard, might have loved Saffron at some point.

LF has pretty good control of the Vale through Sansa and SR. Harry is in fact a risk.

By betrothing Harry to his bastard-daughter, LF has a perfect alibi. Why would he off someone that could potentially make his bastard the wife of lord paramount of the Vale.

But this plan would include keeping SR alive. And LF doesn´t seem to want that. The opposite in fact.

That is exactly what I thought. I actually think LF wants to keep SR alive at least for the time being.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I remember the last Alayne chapter in AFFC which ended when Petyr proposed the marriage with Harry the Heir, saying he was a perfect knight etc. etc. and how I thought that Sansa was really going to be unenthused. She certainly doesn't seem enthused here, and, thankfully, has no illusions about Harry's character. Again, I like that she's learning to play the game. Devious!Sansa is my favorite.

I'm also thinking of the Ashford Tourney theory/crackpot and it seems like Harry is going to be a non-starter - I do NOT think he and Sansa will marry. So if Aegon or fAegon or whoever he is happens by, he might just fall for Sansa. I'm starting to think that Sansa might not be married to anyone at all (Tyrion or anyone else) by the end of the series. I think she might be being set up as an Elizabeth I type of figure. If she decides she doesn't want to marry anyone ever, I won't blame her.

The idea floated that Sansa will be sending food to the Riverlands later on is interesting. After all, Petyr IS Lord Paramount of that region, and if they're starving, he might be told to go help them. I don't see how Sansa would go unrecognized then, as she looks like Catelyn (not just in hair coloring) and so many Riverlords would know what Catelyn looked like. (I don't see Tytos Blackwood or Jason Mallister, to name two, being fooled for very long.)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, I'd be pretty sure he wants to make sure that Harry the Heir wins one of the eight spots, thus keeping him around the castle permanently.

Agreed...

[Ser Not Appearing]

Can anyone tell me why would mladen be upset about this chapter?

I can't read a specific poster's mind, but I can imagine that some among the most ardent Sansa fans (which Mladen is) see Sansa still so happy to be moved about the chessboard by LF and they fear she'll never rise to the level of independent agent that she could be, as suggested by her tourney idea and other things. Her superficial and childish tendancies (massive, maybe?) feature as well, which is also slower progression towards a player than some may have wanted.

We do see progress from her, though, so I think her arc still holds promise.

[Lee-Sensei]

You're making too much of the bastard thing. As I said, Robert liked to get a bit sentimental about his bastards too, when he felt like it. He used to be quite cute with Mya, before it became too much of a hassle.

Before the war and his move to Kings Landing you mean. Robert was never the same after the war. I don't think you can fault Harry on the way he treats his bastard.

[Colonel Green]

Regarding a lot of the speculation about Harry dying at the Tourney, etc., a lot of us are sort of looking for Littlefinger's plans to just go completely off the rails shortly, but I'm not sure that makes much sense given what we know about the story's structure. Particularly with the Stark kids, their stories are basically starting where they would have been had the five-year-gap happened. The existence of books 4 and 5 kind of distorts our perceptions of the series, but imagine if those books didn't exist and, after ASOS ended with Littlefinger being unveiled as one of the main villains of the entire series, his plans started to fall to pieces two chapters later. I'm pretty sure he's going to be ascendant for a while yet.

[John Doe]

Her development is perfectly paced so far imho.

[John Doe]

Before he moved the war and his move to Kings Landing you mean. Robert was never the same after the war. I don't thilnk you can fault Harry on the way he treats his bastard.

Agreed.

Many people seem to think what Oberyn or Eddard did was the norm; it was clearly not.

[James Arryn]

No, I'm saying that Harry was a jerk for calling his paramour fat in a scornful way, because it was HIS doing that she was pregnant.

But there's a fundamental question underneath all of this. If we're getting down to blame assessment for fatness, we are crediting the idea of superficial judgment. Once we do that, the underpinnings for the entire argument collapse, and we're getting into really arbitrary values.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I can't read a specific poster's mind, but I can imagine that some among the most ardent Sansa fans (which Mladen is) see Sansa still so happy to be moved about the chessboard by LF and they fear she'll never rise to the level of independent agent that she could be, as suggested by her tourney idea and other things. Her superficial and childish tendancies (massive, maybe?) feature as well, which is also slower progression towards a player than some may have wanted.

We do see progress from her, though, so I think her arc still holds promise.

I'm one of those ardent Sansa fans, and I actually like this chapter - I don't see Sansa as being superficial and childish here. And she's what - thirteen, fourteen? She's a kid, and LF is a grown man with years of experience with being an arch-manipulator. It would be unrealistic for a young teenage girl to get the better of him at this point.

I think she is progressing nicely. And her tourney idea was really a good one and shows Sansa using her own insights and tastes to larger ends - she does like tourneys, and she has a good idea what makes knights tick and what makes Sweetrobin (LF's son? hmm) tick as well.

I can't speak for Mladen (though I do want to hear what he has to say!) but I am not disappointed that a child can't best LF at the "Game of Thrones" just yet.

[DarkSister1001]

Having 8 Winged Knights also a really good way for LF to keep the 8 best dudes of the Vale near him too. Though that could backfyre on him. :)