[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 2

[Lee-Sensei]

To a degree, certainly, but that doesn't necessarily diminish my larger point that the brunt of the stigma of illegimate children hits the mother, not the guy and that Ned and Robb feeling so bad about these issues was very likely more about sympathy towards the women they got in trouble rather than the stigma they would have to face themselves. (It's true that Catelyn wouldn't necessarily be considered dishonored by Ned's bastard, I guess, but I still think it's safe to speculate that Ned's guilty feelings on the matter were largely about the shitty situation this created for her).

Ned feels bad for the wife he cheated on. Robb feels bad for the noble woman he slept with. Harry slept with peasants.

[Pod The Rod]

Sorry, you're right, Obara talked about it. Still, hitting her and than taking the child away is worse than anything Harry has done so far.

Or do you think violence against whores is okay because you paid them previously?

I think violence is entirely appropriate against someone who's trying to raise my daughter as a whore, yes.

Not only that, but the entire point of that anecdote was to show how Oberyn was giving his child agency in her future. It was her choice to leave with him, she could have stayed if she wanted (though she'd have had to be crazy to).

[Grizzly Mormont]

Ok, I've skimmed through the chapter, but the wiki says it's Quarterly of six; first, third and fifth Or, semy of lips gules; second, fourth and sixth sable, semy of skulls argent, and I think the only shield with lips is the one of Ossifer Lipps

The bald knight wore a dark blue surcoat emblazoned with a huge pair of pink lips.

House Lonmouth is a noble house from the Stormlands. They blazon their arms with quartered of six: red lips strewn on yellow, yellow skulls strewn on black

The one on her right had a grizzled beard, a bald head, and a belly that spilled over his swordbelt where his lap should have been.

Ser Richard Lonmouth was a former squire and close personal friend of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.^[4] Lord Robert Baratheon outdrank a member of House Lonmouth, most likely Richard, at the Tourney at Harrenhal.^[5]

^{He's got a big beer belly like Robert did from drinking so much, and nobody has heard from him since the rebellion, and they both have lips as their sigil. Ossifer Lips = Richard Lonmouth?}

[pogo]

"Harry slept with peasants"

Hmmmm, actually not just peasants, Saffron is apparently the daughter of Gulltown"s richest merchant, to whom she is more precious than gold.

Merchants, especially rich ones, probably have some fairly fixed ideas about their daughter"s honour too.

Gulltown merchants are probably on pretty good terms with LF as well.

Harry better look out if he becomes in any way inconvenient to LF

who will wear Sansa/Alaynes favour???

My money on Ser Wallace Waynwood

[juanml82]

Ok, I've skimmed through the chapter, but the wiki says it's Quarterly of six; first, third and fifth Or, semy of lips gules; second, fourth and sixth sable, semy of skulls argent, and I think the only shield with lips is the one of Ossifer Lipps

The bald knight wore a dark blue surcoat emblazoned with a huge pair of pink lips.

House Lonmouth is a noble house from the Stormlands. They blazon their arms with quartered of six: red lips strewn on yellow, yellow skulls strewn on black

The one on her right had a grizzled beard, a bald head, and a belly that spilled over his swordbelt where his lap should have been.

Ser Richard Lonmouth was a former squire and close personal friend of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.^[4] Lord Robert Baratheon outdrank a member of House Lonmouth, most likely Richard, at the Tourney at Harrenhal.^[5]

^{He's got a big beer belly like Robert did from drinking so much, and nobody has heard from him since the rebellion, and they both have lips as their sigil. Ossifer Lips = Richard Lonmouth?}

Lipps has a pair of lips as his blazon, while Lonmouth has three red lips and three skulls. Maybe he is disguising himself, but that's a theory then, not a fact.

[Colonel Green]

Lipps has a pair of lips as his blazon, while Lonmouth has three red lips and three skulls. Maybe he is disguising himself, but that's a theory then, not a fact.

And a strange theory, at that.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Ned feels bad for the wife he cheated on. Robb feels bad for the noble woman he slept with. Harry slept with peasants.

Pretty much my point. Nobody's going to make Harry feel bad about having gotten a merchant daughter in trouble, so we shouldn't give him too much credit for feeling fairly positive about the whole bastard thing. Other characters who feel some responsibility for the problems they are causing might feel shame and be therefore reluctant to address this so openly, but Harry has no such reservations, because for him the whole affair is only associated with fun.

Of course he could be worse - like Walder Frey or Roose Bolton, who clearly feel no shame either and treat their bastards like shit. We can all agree that Harry is no Walder or Roose.

[Grizzly Mormont]

that's a theory then, not a fact.

Obviously, guy. Just pointing out some similarities. He's missing, he liked to drink at tournaments, and they share a strangely unique sigil.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Very late to this party, and I'm sure as hell not reading 70+ pages of thread.

I scoured the chapter for any sort of foreshadowing like I usually do, but I didn't spot a damn thing. Maybe I'm just out of practice. Will try again tomorrow with fresh eyes. It was nice to see a more confident Sansa though, I hope all of the Stark kids, Jon Snow and Dany will display the sort of personality changes early on in TWOW that Arya and Sansa displayed in their preview chapters.

[Lord Varys]

Harry's name:

He certainly wants to be an Arryn but he is only a quarter-Arryn through the female line. That's not all that good. I'd imagine he might try to claim the name but we don't know yet if royal permission is necessary for such a name change.

Overall plan:

Littlefinger's plans tend to change, and I'm not really sure he is actually willing to share Sansa - both romantically and eventually sexually - with any man. And I really don't see what purpse Harry should serve in the long-run. The man is more a potential threat than an asset. With Lord Robert and possibly a child by Sansa-Harry Littlefinger would control the two main branches of House Arryn. Harry's heir - the next in line - is most likely both too far removed to pose any danger whereas Bronze Yohn really was trying to control both Robert and Harry - and it is evident that he tried to make Harry his man just in case before Littlefinger brokered the match.

This whole thing may actually turn out as another murder plot in which Littlefinger decided to use Sansa in a different fashion. It could be a mystery for her to try to figure out what he is up and/or react the way she is supposed to in the right moment (whatever that is).

Littlefinger's fate:

I don't see him falling down soon. What would be the point of that? It would make for a very boring story. If George plays this story realistically Littlefinger will die a sudden and very unexpected death due to something he could not foresee/anticipate. I doubt that a man like him can be beaten at the game. At least not if he is realizing that he is losing. He should have an exit strategy for such scenario.

Mices and open windows:

If we go with Ser Shadrich being in Varys employ the whole line about 'a bag of dragons' could have some more meaning. The open window could be a hint that a little mouse/bird is in the castle and spying on Littlefinger.

Varys should have guessed what Petyr is up to in ASoS when the whole Lysa thing unfolded and it is quite clear that he would want to ensure that Littlefinger and the Vale don't become a threat to Aegon in AFfC/ADwD.

An interesting turn of event could be if Shadrich ends up delivering Sansa information on Littlefinger. Either directly or by sending her notes/placing stuff in her chamber.

[Lee-Sensei]

"Harry slept with peasants"

Hmmmm, actually not just peasants, Saffron is apparently the daughter of Gulltown"s richest merchant, to whom she is more precious than gold.

Merchants, especially rich ones, probably have some fairly fixed ideas about their daughter"s honour too.

Gulltown merchants are probably on pretty good terms with LF as well.

Harry better look out if he becomes in any way inconvenient to L

who will wear Sansa/Alaynes favour???

My money on Ser Wallace Waynwood

Merchants are peasants.

[olenna123]

I think violence is entirely appropriate against someone who's trying to raise my daughter as a whore, yes.

Not only that, but the entire point of that anecdote was to show how Oberyn was giving his child agency in her future. It was her choice to leave with him, she could have stayed if she wanted (though she'd have had to be crazy to).

That's pretty disgusting. You're acting like Oberyn is some unwilling participant, like his child just came from nowhere and that prostitute is happy to have her there. The reality is he showed up and beat a woman who is nowhere close to having his level of privilege in life and some people here try to whitewash that disgusting behavior he showed.

No one says Oberyn should not have taken his kid but the way he did it was disgusting. I don't know why some people find that hard to accept.

[Colonel Green]

Harry's name:

He certainly wants to be an Arryn but he is only a quarter-Arryn through the female line. That's not all that good. I'd imagine he might try to claim the name but we don't know yet if royal permission is necessary for such a name change.

If he becomes Lord of the Eyrie, he will change his name. Even assuming permission is necessary, no monarch would ever deny that, and if they did, it would cause trouble.

Littlefinger's plans tend to change, and I'm not really sure he is actually willing to share Sansa - both romantically and eventually sexually - with any man.

Littlefinger is not obsessed with Sansa's virginity, etc. He wrote that off when the Tyrion marriage plot was executed to thwart the Tyrells, at his intervention. If it advances his goals, and so long as he gets her in the end, I don't think he cares.

And I really don't see what purpse Harry should serve in the long-run.

He's a useful soldier-figurehead, which Robert is not.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Oh good good, just what we need.....a chapter with about 50 new characters in it........

[Pod The Rod]

That's pretty disgusting. You're acting like Oberyn is some unwilling participant, like his child just came from nowhere and that prostitute is happy to have her there. The reality is he showed up and beat a woman who is nowhere close to having his level of privilege in life and some people here try to whitewash that disgusting behavior he showed.

No one says Oberyn should not have taken his kid but the way he did it was disgusting. I don't know why some people find that hard to accept.

We find it hard to accept bc that's not what happened and you're talking out of your arse.

First of all, yes, someone did say he shouldn't have taken his kid: the person I was responding to.

So what would you have had him do, take no for an answer? Heck no. The woman wasn't giving up custody of Obara peacefully, and I repeat, call me a barbarian all you like, but if I have to use violence to remove my child from a whorehouse and take her to the pinnacle of my society, yeah, I'm going to do it.

And he didn't BEAT her, he hit her precisely one time. There's a difference.

[darksellsword]

The thing that jumped out at me the most was Sansas internal dialogue referring to little finger as her father and correcting herself that it was not her Father who had died but lord Eddard Stark. Ser Wallace Waynwood seems like a potential love interest for Alayne.I wonder what would happen if Harry the heir were to win a place as a winged knight guard I know he would not take a vowe similar to the kings guard but surely it would prohibit him from marrying during his term of service three years if I'm not mistaken, it would be funny if Ser Wallace Waynwood were to deliberately lose the final melee against Harry the heir so he could pursue Alayne even more likely if he knew who she really is.

[Raksha 2014]

We find it hard to accept bc that's not what happened and you're talking out of your arse.

First of all, yes, someone did say he shouldn't have taken his kid: the person I was responding to.

So what would you have had him do, take no for an answer? Heck no. The woman wasn't giving up custody of Obara peacefully, and I repeat, call me a barbarian all you like, but if I have to use violence to remove my child from a whorehouse and take her to the pinnacle of my society, yeah, I'm going to do it.

And he didn't BEAT her, he hit her precisely one time. There's a difference.

It seemed unusual for Oberyn to slap around a woman. I wondered, when I read the account, whether Obara's mother had abused her in some way, and Oberyn was really angered about that.

If not, hitting Obara's mother was not a desirable action, in fact it was a blot on Oberyn's character, but on the whole I still like and admire him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

We find it hard to accept bc that's not what happened and you're talking out of your arse.

First of all, yes, someone did say he shouldn't have taken his kid: the person I was responding to.

So what would you have had him do, take no for an answer? Heck no. The woman wasn't giving up custody of Obara peacefully, and I repeat, call me a barbarian all you like, but if I have to use violence to remove my child from a whorehouse and take her to the pinnacle of my society, yeah, I'm going to do it.

And he didn't BEAT her, he hit her precisely one time. There's a difference.

It gets shocking because he's a male. If Obara had been with her father to be eventually whored around, it would be definitely more shocking and we would be cheering for what Obaryna did. I think we all understand that Obara's mother probably loved her very much, but the reality is that she has gotten a better future with Oberyn, and a more better chance in life: she can fight, read, she can speak her mind straight to the Prince of Dorne. Also, Oberyn seems to be quite nice towards people in general, men or women, noble or common. We're talking about his first born daughter in danger and he was also very young and inexperienced. I'm personally ok with giving him a free pass out of this.

[Krugal]

How exciting with a brand new chapter to analyze! Did anyone else notice the paralells between sweetrobin and the mad king, starting with not letting anybody cut their hair? Don't know if it has been brought up (this is a long thread), but I made a separate thread about it:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/127114-[WOW-SPOILERS]-Paralells-between-Aerys-Targaryen-and-Robert-Arryn

[Lee-Sensei]

Oberyn slaps the mother of his child, takes the kid away and leaves her to drink herself to death out of grief. Great guy.

Robert sleeps with women and moves on. Monster! Harry sleep with a woman and says she's become fat (because she did). Monster!