R+L=J v.140

[sabrecmc]

I agree with Lucifer (heh). I think we don't have rules for the magic in GRRM's world b/c the characters themselves don't understand or have faulty explanations. That doesn't mean there are not hard and fast rules. In Harry Potter, the characters were presented as understanding magic far more deeply, so it made sense to see more in-universe rules laid out (this spell + this wand movement=this). Now, it is entirely possible that GRRM actually has not thought through any of the rules and just thought some things were neat story ideas. But, I don't think what we know from the books precludes that there are, in fact, in-universe rules.

I don't think Jon's eye color is all that big a deal, tbh.

[Mithras]

I don't think Jon's eye color is all that big a deal, tbh.

If only it was Jon's eyes. Some proponents of A+J=T goes so far as to claim that Tyrion's black eye is in fact dark purple too.

[Lord Varys]

The point with the R'hlloric magic is that not only death can pay for life, of course. That's a blood magic trope, but Thoros' magic has nothing to do with blood magic.

My guess is that the fire kiss magic could somehow connect to the fire magic dragon gene in the body and reviving it again. If all the dragonlord descendants are part-dragon, and dragons are magical, then such a dragon-related magical dragon gene remnant in a human body could linger and being reactivated by other fire magic resulting in the resurrection of the whole body in the process.

Beric is clearly a sort a changed man afterwards. The fire magic is slowly consuming him - although that might only be an effect of his repeated resurrections not the fact that he lives again (say, that each resurrection consumes a part of the substance of the person in the resurrection process but doesn't need any additional fuel afterwards) - and his blood has a magical, blade-inflaming quality now. This could be an innate magic that resides in all Targaryen/dragonlord blood but was activated in Beric due to the outside fire magic stimulus Thoros' ritual provided.

If this is true then the origin of this 'kiss of life' thing the Red Priest came to use in their burying rites may actually be a way of the Valyrian dragonlords to trick death. 'My father/mother died? Who cares?! Give him/her the kiss of life and bring him/her back!'

[Mithras]

Varamyr prologue shows that when the soul leaves the body, it quickly starts dissipating into the nature. So, Beric and Cat lost some part of their souls. In Jon's case, we have a perfect spirit holder.

[LmL]

Very interesting idea Lord Varys. I'll file that one away and see if I come across text that supports it.

[Alia of the knife]

Heh. Good catch.

I think the Starks definitely have non-humanoid ancestry. I believe the mother of Brandon the Builder was a CotF. We also know that the Starks have crannogmen ancestry after King Rickard Stark married the daughter of the Marsh King.

There was this Great Empire of Dawn before the known history of men. Some people think that Valyrians, Daynes, possibly Hightowers and Starks might be their descendants. Here is an interesting thread arguing that the Starks are not First Men.

I am off to work, but that is a pretty awesome theory.

I've suspected that Leaf, Nettles and Arya in particular all have some very similar attributes, though NOT in looks,

and that Nettles father might have been wolf seed rather than Dragon seed as I think she flew back home to the North.

The theory might also explain why the Targaryens left Starks to their own devices to still rule the North.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I agree with Lucifer (heh). I think we don't have rules for the magic in GRRM's world b/c the characters themselves don't understand or have faulty explanations. That doesn't mean there are not hard and fast rules. In Harry Potter, the characters were presented as understanding magic far more deeply, so it made sense to see more in-universe rules laid out (this spell + this wand movement=this). Now, it is entirely possible that GRRM actually has not thought through any of the rules and just thought some things were neat story ideas. But, I don't think what we know from the books precludes that there are, in fact, in-universe rules.

I don't think Jon's eye color is all that big a deal, tbh.

My recollection is that GRRM said in an SSM that his magic works differently than HP-type magic -- I cannot remember all the details, but I think he said something along the lines that it is more instinctive. So Dany did not have to say a certain "spell" to hatch the dragons -- but that certain conditions had to be met. This SSM suggests that in some sense, GRRM knows what rules apply to magic in his world, but it is different that what is often used in other literature in terms of specific spells or magic wands. Even if the rules are not entirely clear to the readers, I think GRRM has a fairly good idea of how he thinks it works for purposes of ASOIAF.

[sj4iy]

I'd like to respectfully disagree here. I believe the magic in Martin's world does actually follow rules, but he hasn't laid them out to us like they do in magic school. He definitely wants to keep an air of mystery around the magic, that's certain, but it does seem like there are rules. Firstly, the natural forces are personified as magic in and of themselves. Ice and fire. Fire made flesh, frozen fire. The Others are ice made flesh. The Valyrians drew magic from the 14 fires. The heart of winter seems to be the source of ice magic, and the Shadow by Asshai some sort of corrupted heart of fire magic. The magics we see are tied to one of the elemental forces, or else blood, or both. Only death can pay for life - but what's up with Thoros? Who dies to pay for Berics ressurection? Well, I think there is an answer and I think we are meant to notice this seeming inconsistency and puzzle out the reason. Targaryens have a latent ability to withstand fire, because they have dragon blood in them, and dragons can withstand fire. It's probably a necessity to ride a dragon while he is spewing rivers of molten flame - I bet it gets hot right behind the dragons furnace of a head, you know? Dany's hair burns off as she rides Drogon - good thing she's a Targ, or that would have been problematic.

In any case, I think what George has done is set our rules for himself, but not given them to the reader, so as to make the magic seem mysterious, at least at first. But I haven't found anything inconsistent that I cannot come up with a plausible theory to explain.

If there were rules, whether he laid them out or not, we would have been able to put together the pattern by now.

But there's no pattern, no structure- nothing. Magic stuff happens when Martin needs it to happen. Need Catelyn back from the dead? Then have a zombie man give his life to hers, even though that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in the context of the story. Need dragons in the story? Then have Dany survive a funeral pyre to hatch them, even though almost the same exact situation happened at Summerhall and didn't hatch any dragons. But that doesn't mean she's fireproof! She can still be burned!

Basically, the magic in this series follows no structured rules as to who can perform the magic or even how it happens. Why do all of Ned's children have the ability to warg when it's a statistical impossibility? For that matter, why does Jon also have the ability to warg when he's NOT one of Ned's children? And why were there only 6 direwolves when we know that Brandon has bastards? If all of the Stark children get direwolves, why aren't there direwolves for Brandon's bastards, as well?

I see no distinguishable pattern. Just everything explained with "it's magic because the story needs it to be".

[Greymoon]

I don't really think it means that.

But yeah, it does seem like the artwork is based on Chris Hemsworth. But is it considered canon?

I really like this artwork because I grow tired of people imagining Rhaegar as effeminate and girly looking. Those things never crossed my mind while reading about him, to be honest, quite the contrary actually. I imagine him built like a warrior. Training since 14/15 I suppose, in his 20s he must have been very well built.

Does anyone else see some Heath Ledger in the artwork as well?

As canon as it's likely to get... At the very least, the artist was chosen by GRRM or by someone working for GRRM, and the picture was submitted to their critical eye before getting published. And I agree with you that Rhaegar can't possibly look 'girly' with all the training he had. People wouldn't refer to Rhaegar as the 'Last Dragon' is he was no more but a girly brooding harpist. Barristan also said that Rhaegar was able, and single-minded. So if Rhaegar put it in his head that he should be a warrior, we can trust that he worked hard at becoming a warrior, and that he was good at it.

He probably wasn't stocky and broad shouldered like Robert Baratheon -- neither Viserys nor Dany seem to be, and Jon isn't either... but that leaves plenty of options open :) The misconception of Rhaegar being girly stems from, imo, his playing the harp, his solemn disposition, and his resemblance to Viserys, who is described in an unfavorable light, most of the time.

That said, Rhaegar was taller than Viserys, and probably stronger, as I don't think Viserys ever exercised. According to Dany, he'd never used a sword in earnest, so that would account for a difference in their build... here's the description we get of Rhaegar:

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

In their physical attributes, I think Jaime and Rhaegar had roughly the same sort of build...that's just speculation though, based on Jon's first impression of Jaime -- an odd echo of Rhaegar's ghost:

Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei, tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered “Kingslayer” behind his back. Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

[addicted to snow]

My recollection is that GRRM said in an SSM that his magic works differently than HP-type magic -- I cannot remember all the details, but I think he said something along the lines that it is more instinctive. So Dany did not have to say a certain "spell" to hatch the dragons -- but that certain conditions had to be met. This SSM suggests that in some sense, GRRM knows what rules apply to magic in his world, but it is different that what is often used in other literature in terms of specific spells or magic wands. Even if the rules are not entirely clear to the readers, I think GRRM has a fairly good idea of how he thinks it works for purposes of ASOIAF.

I think this is spot on... There are rules, we just don't know what they are...

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

If there were rules, whether he laid them out or not, we would have been able to put together the pattern by now.

But there's no pattern, no structure- nothing. Magic stuff happens when Martin needs it to happen. Need Catelyn back from the dead? Then have a zombie man give his life to hers, even though that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in the context of the story. Need dragons in the story? Then have Dany survive a funeral pyre to hatch them, even though almost the same exact situation happened at Summerhall and didn't hatch any dragons.

Now I'm curious. Do tell, what exactly happened at Summerhall?

[addicted to snow]

Varamyr prologue shows that when the soul leaves the body, it quickly starts dissipating into the nature. So, Beric and Cat lost some part of their souls. In Jon's case, we have a perfect spirit holder.

I disagree, Jon's Spirit will slowly fade away into Ghost, so that when Jon takes Man-Form again, he will be more wolfish...

[addicted to snow]

In their physical attributes, I think Jaime and Rhaegar had roughly the same sort of build...that's just speculation though, based on Jon's first impression of Jaime -- an odd echo of Rhaegar's ghost:

Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei, tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered “Kingslayer” behind his back. Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

An echo of Rhaegar's ghost???

That's just Jamie Lannister...

[Greymoon]

An echo of Rhaegar's ghost???

That's just Jamie Lannister...

Yes. It's just Jaime Lannister wearing Targaryen colors and being compared to a King.

[sj4iy]

Now I'm curious. Do tell, what exactly happened at Summerhall?

The place burned down with Targaryens and dragon eggs inside while Aegon was trying to hatch a dragon.

Yet they all died and no dragons were born. So what's the difference? Why did one work and the other didn't?

[sj4iy]

Yes. It's just Jaime Lannister wearing Targaryen colors and being compared to a King.

Even more, it's Jon Snow who thinks that very thought.

[LmL]

The place burned down with Targaryens and dragon eggs inside while Aegon was trying to hatch a dragon.Yet they all died and no dragons were born. So what's the difference? Why did one work and the other didn't?

So, because you can't think of a difference, there are definitely no rules to the magic? That's a strange assumption. Obviously something was different, because the dragons didn't hatch. Summer hall is a big mystery, intentionally kept in the dark like the Tower of Joy. That's because Martin wants us to ponder this very question - what happened there? How DO you hatch a dragon? These things are mysteries, intentionally. But he gives us lots of clues, which means there IS an answer.

Honestly, if you are right that Martin isn't following rules with his magic, he's a bad writer. Again, a strange assumption for you to make when so many others are seeing signs of rules.

[LmL]

Even more, it's Jon Snow who thinks that very thought.

I agree this may be a foreshadowing / RLJ clue.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

The place burned down with Targaryens and dragon eggs inside while Aegon was trying to hatch a dragon.

Yet they all died and no dragons were born. So what's the difference? Why did one work and the other didn't?

You need to give me way more details for me to give you the answer. "They tried to hatch a dragon" is not nearly enough. Please elaborate, what exactly happened at Summerhall?

[Avalatis]

You need to give me way more details for me to give you the answer. "They tried to hatch a dragon" is not nearly enough. Please elaborate, what exactly happened at Summerhall?

Don't beat around the bush. If your point is: "We don't know the specifics of Summerhall, so we can't claim they were the same" then just say it.

I would agree not enough magic is used to claim there is a rule system or not. I also agree that Martin is probably using magic as a literary tool so the rules are probably not super specific (more along a loose guideline). I doubt he is asspulling every instance of magic.