[Book Spoilers] EP503 Discussion

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Taking the Dwarf, 1,2,3: I love two things about this week: The fact that Sansa arrived at Winterfell quickly instead of waiting until week 8; and that Mormont took Tyrion without having to engage in 20 minutes of planning. Just, Do. What. We. Know. You. Are. Going. To. Do. Take notes- that’s solid writing. Just ... do it! There is no need to drag this stuff out.

This just made me remember. What was up with that long look from the Red Priestess? Will she facilitate Tyrion getting to Dany? Will she warn Dany? Will she do nothing but stare? Tune in next week, folks. or the week after that.

[Janicia]

Anyonw else catch the fact that the High Septon was made to do A Walk of Shame? Hmm, telegraphing future events a bit here. A bit heavy handed of D&D in my opinion.

The show has to set up that Cersei makes a lot of mistakes, but they have to do it efficiently - no time for side-plots. Cersei was looking for allies against Margery, so she brings in LF and the High Sparrow. We already know that LF is a dangerous ally. But this set-up lets us know that the High Sparrow is also a dangerous ally for Cersei and she should have known better than to empower him.

[hallam]

Um, who is ruling the Seven Kingdoms? Is Tommen of age? Is there a Regent? If there isn't a Regent, is Tommen actually king? I can't remember anyone referring to Cersei as Queen Regent.

I thought that there were rules against putting actors below the age of 18 in sexual scenes. Dean-Charles Chapman, who plays Tommen, won't be 18 until September.

TV-Margaery is being smart. She's in her mid to late twenties married to a king who is what, 14? In 10 years, he will be in his prime and she'll be 36 or whatever. She is wise to try to enthrall and influence him now, get him in the habit of seeking her advice, not to mention having sex with her so she can give him an heir.

I don't remember the High Sparrow in the book being such a friendly person. But maybe he does exert enough charm to help Cersei dig her own grave by trusting him.

I don't think the book high sparrow could have worked on screen. He only makes a direct appearance after becoming high septon. We is introduced through dialogue between the other characters.

We are about to come up to Cersei's disastrous small council where she will make three really bad decisions: stiff the bank of Bravos, use the money saved to rebuild the navy and make the High Sparrow High Septon.

[Janicia]

Brienne of Nowhere Near Tarth: I really liked how Brienne is self-aware enough to know that Pod needs her and she needs Pod to be better than he is. Training Pod is great.

Oh, but her still wanting revenge for Renly? Bored. Out of my Mind. Who gives a shit? Her desire to revenge a character who died 3 seasons ago is utterly uninteresting. She should get obver it. That would be cool. Instead? We know how Stannis will die: in a stupid, lame revenge plot. …. Hooray .... said nobody ever.

Arya and Sansa both desperately want revenge for Ned's death from 4 seasons ago, and a bunch of people still reference Ned and mourn for him. Renly was an important person - a great lord, brother to the king, pretender to the throne, and he was basically a good person. He should be mourned and remembered. And he died in front of Brienne while she was supposed to be protecting him. Brienne is never going to "get over" Renly's death, especially not while Stannis still lives.

Anyway, Brienne is going to have trouble going forward, since she is going to fundamentally hate both the Stannis and Bolton factions. Will make her movements tricky.

[Janicia]

This just made me remember. What was up with that long look from the Red Priestess? Will she facilitate Tyrion getting to Dany? Will she warn Dany? Will she do nothing but stare? Tune in next week, folks. or the week after that.

I took it to mean that she knew Tyrion was making fun of her, and also probably knew way too much about Tyrion and Varys. Just a kind of "don't mess with the red priestesses because they're powerful and scary" moment.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That is a ridiculous claim. Starks were aged up too, to be "oversexualized" i am sure....And Maggy the Frog? Did you wanted to jump on her, tear off her clothes and fuck her right there in that hut?....If you get horny everytime you see a teenager or middle aged witch on TV, well maybe the problem is with you and not with the show.

WTH is your problem?

I don't need to "jump" on Maggy to be aware that it's quite a nonsense change that a character who is portrayed as old, disgusting and strange was actually changed to look seemingly attractive. Really, was it THAT HARD to simply cast an older women who wasn't showing her breasts? No. They need to change THIS or THIS into THIS. Can you give a logical reasonable explanation for the change?

Edited April 27, 2015 by JonCon's Red Beard

[Quentyn Kartell]

Okay, so we finally got Game of Thrones this week.

What I liked:

Jon Lannister: I said this when Dance was released: that Jon Snow’s handling of the Janos Slynt debacle was absolutely, 100% the correct way to handle that situation and that he inherited; it was the way Tywin would have handled it; it was the way Tyrion would have handled it. IT was the way to go. And it shows what it takes to actually lead men. Not all will love you; they all need to respect you.

Also, deft move my Jon in making Thorne the First Ranger, thus removing him from Janos’ inner-ring. Everything about that scene was great. Just like the book.

Not understanding why you compared Jon's beheading of Janos to Tywin and Tyrion. When I first read that scene I thought it was something he learned from his Nedd Stark. Nedd taught him if you're gonna sentence a man to death you should be the one to wield the sword. Just like he was present when his father came across the NW deserter. I think Jon found himself in a similar position. Tywin nor Tyrion would have done so.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Warning. I'm gonna rant.

While I myself am a big fan of ASOIAF, and only a casual show watcher, I need to say: all that "they changed it, now it sucks" stuff is srsly furrealz ridiculous. Boohoo, so Tommen bedded Margaery, thus they obviously discarded the "gasp, Marg no virgin!1!" play with something different... so what? Was the "gasp, Marg no virgin!1!" play really that awesomelicious? You really fell in deep deep love with that subplot and nothing else could possibly be this this this absolutely super? I'm calling BS.

Boohoo^2, there's this cool quote in teh book, but in teh show nobody mentions no block! Ruined!!! Ya know what? I've read the book. And the block-fetching is decisively not what made the biggest impact on me. Nor second biggest. Nor third biggest. That scene, actually, was not first and foremost about block-fetching.

Seriously. There's plenty of stuff in the show to have a decent, legit whine about, and you pull that shit instead? Sheesh. They're making a TV adaptation which is a TV adaptation. Make peace with that fact.

[TerranV]

My guess is that Littlefinger wants to establish Sansa as the lady of Winterfell then off the Boltons when the North is united behind her. Sansa would be indebted to Littlefinger even more for helping her reclaim the North for the Starks.

[dieseldda]

Not going to lie, I actually enjoy the Sansa in Winterfell stuff but mainly because so many people hate it. I find it amusing. I doubt Sansa will be abused like fake Arya, nor will Theon prep her for Ramsay's wedding consummation, but I do foresee people disappearing and the Boltons getting nervous. The people in the North will love her far more than they will ever love a Bolton, especially a bastard one. And it sure beats her tending to Robin at the Eyrie for an entire season.

The idea of Littlefinger being ruined because of a misstep is inevitable. The man is a gambler, he's declared himself as such on the show many times. Eventually, one of his gambles for power will blow up in his face. He's going to do something stupid eventually. We haven't seen any sign of his undoing in the book yet; I'm sure it's coming and it'll be different (and awesome), but it's coming. I don't know how this is going to play out, but I think it's a bit early to declare his gamble a failure yet. They can still escape Winterfell at the end of the season and back south.

Was anybody else wishing Jon would have told Stannis that his brothers are still alive? Yeah, he knows Bran is north of the wall, but hasn't a clue where Rickon could be, only that he's still south and very much in play. I want to see Skagos, god dammit!

Qyburn is quickly becoming a favorite of mine. I really hope to see the Frankenmountain he's constructing by the end of the season,

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Brienne should go after Roose for Catelyn's sake. She had transferred her loyalty to Cat, and the Red Wedding is reason enough for plenty of revenge.

Show Margery is more like the Empress Messalina than she is like book Margery. In the book they never really let you know how much Margery knows. Does she beat Cersei at every turn because she is cleverer than Cersei or by dumb luck? I think they lose something by not maintaining the mystery of Margery.

I hate little "Sansa on the Prairie." Could they make her any more drab?

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Brienne should go after Roose for Catelyn's sake. She had transferred her loyalty to Cat, and the Red Wedding is reason enough for plenty of revenge.

You don't transfer oaths and loyalty. I think those who have predicted that Brienne will have to choose between her oath to Cat and her oath to Renly which will mirror her choice between Cat and Jaime in the books.

[Mingolla]

WTH is your problem?

I don't need to "jump" on Maggy to be aware that it's quite a nonsense change that a character who is portrayed as old, disgusting and strange was actually changed to look seemingly attractive. Really, was it THAT HARD to simply cast an older women who wasn't showing her breasts? No. They need to change THIS or THIS into THIS. Can you give a logical reasonable explanation for the change?

Many characters look nothing like they look in the books. It does not require any explanation. Maggy the Frog scene consisted of two 12 years old girls and averagely good looking middle aged woman. I dont even want to know what goes in your mind to describe that scene as part of "oversexualization" of the show. There was nothing sexual about it for any normal person.

[Rockroi]

Arya and Sansa both desperately want revenge for Ned's death from 4 seasons ago, and a bunch of people still reference Ned and mourn for him. Renly was an important person - a great lord, brother to the king, pretender to the throne, and he was basically a good person. He should be mourned and remembered. And he died in front of Brienne while she was supposed to be protecting him. Brienne is never going to "get over" Renly's death, especially not while Stannis still lives.

That's their father; their FATHER versus... a guy she met like twice. I'm sorry, that is not a great comparison. Brienne's motivation is duty, so I get that, but she was the sworn sword to a traitor-King... and then sworn to Cat ... and then Joff... Jesus... so... Brienne takes her duty seriously... unless it interferes with the story... The book, its more clear; she went from Renly to Cat and the to Stoneheart after, you know, they nearly kill her. That makes some bit of sense. And she is no longer really hung up on Renly because, well, real life has gotten in the way of that shit.

Brienne's motivation in the show is pasted on; its there to remind us all "Hey- everyone, THIS IS HOW STANNIS WILL DIE!!!" Its not smart, interesting, clever, deft, or well done. Its just there.

Not understanding why you compared Jon's beheading of Janos to Tywin and Tyrion. When I first read that scene I thought it was something he learned from his Nedd Stark. Nedd taught him if you're gonna sentence a man to death you should be the one to wield the sword. Just like he was present when his father came across the NW deserter. I think Jon found himself in a similar position. Tywin nor Tyrion would have done so.

Tywin and Tyrion would have given the same exact order. They may not have carried it out with their own hand- and I think that is an added dimension to Jon that works in this area- but there is no way Ned Stark would ever have done that.

Why?

Because Ned would never have been clever enough to send Janos Slynt to the center of the Wall to reconnoiter a castle; Ned would never have made Thorne First Ranger to buy him off; Ned would have kept them under watch and then act all shocked when Janos and Thorne killed him in 6 months. You misread my whole point- namely that Tywin and Tyrion would have manipulated the situation to GET Janos to act the way JOn had to instigate that reaction;to get Janos to act like Janos. Ned certainly would not have bought off Thorne.

And the execution was very reminiscent of Stark, but its from the same cloth as Tywin and Tyrion who make hard decisions and kill off rivals; something Ned Stark was UNBELIEVABLY BAD at. Yes, Ned will kill a deserter; a powerless, harmless deserter without any importance. Got that, But so would have Tywin and Tyrion and Tywin and Tyrion knew enough about the situation to manipulate it in a way that would get JAnos to, in effect, kill himself.

[Cubarey]

Warning. I'm gonna rant.

While I myself am a big fan of ASOIAF, and only a casual show watcher, I need to say: all that "they changed it, now it sucks" stuff is srsly furrealz ridiculous. Boohoo, so Tommen bedded Margaery, thus they obviously discarded the "gasp, Marg no virgin!1!" play with something different... so what? Was the "gasp, Marg no virgin!1!" play really that awesomelicious? You really fell in deep deep love with that subplot and nothing else could possibly be this this this absolutely super? I'm calling BS.

Boohoo^2, there's this cool quote in teh book, but in teh show nobody mentions no block! Ruined!!! Ya know what? I've read the book. And the block-fetching is decisively not what made the biggest impact on me. Nor second biggest. Nor third biggest. That scene, actually, was not first and foremost about block-fetching.

Seriously. There's plenty of stuff in the show to have a decent, legit whine about, and you pull that shit instead? Sheesh. They're making a TV adaptation which is a TV adaptation. Make peace with that fact.

Boohoo one: It may have not been the greatest plot ever but it was a complicated subplot that GRRM had entertwined into the Books. Changing it to the THe Sparrow Persecutes Loras because he is gay is not only clunky in my opinion but made necessary because the Show kept Loras around as Male I candy so they could show a few more male on male sex scenes then were in the books. Frankly book Loras was a much more awesome character then the show Loras. I understand that having screwed Book Loras they needed an easy way to get rid of the character in the show, but way they are doing it in my opinion is bringing in themes ( the Church persecuting gays) that were never part of GRRM's story.

Boohoo two, I agree it was at best a neat little line but not intigral to the scene or important in any way to developing the plot.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Cubarey

[acosta]

My guess is that Littlefinger wants to establish Sansa as the lady of Winterfell then off the Boltons when the North is united behind her. Sansa would be indebted to Littlefinger even more for helping her reclaim the North for the Starks.

Yeah, I'm almost completely certain this is what is happening and I'm puzzled more people don't see it and are worried about Sansa. Littlefinger isn't here to make an alliance with the Boltons. He just killed Joffrey Baratheon (which Roose does not know) and returned the North their Queen. He did what Robb tried and failed to do. The northern lords will love him for this.

[Throstle]

Is there any place where I can read/watch some fanatics comparing this episode to the book and what it all means?

[cgf]

WTH is your problem?

I don't need to "jump" on Maggy to be aware that it's quite a nonsense change that a character who is portrayed as old, disgusting and strange was actually changed to look seemingly attractive. Really, was it THAT HARD to simply cast an older women who wasn't showing her breasts? No. They need to change THIS or THIS into THIS. Can you give a logical reasonable explanation for the change?

Well what's the big problem with making the change? Does Cersei's paranoia make less sense if there isn't that stark contrast between beautiful young cersei and horrifying Maggy?

To be honest I kinda liked the change, but I really like the more meta lines they include for book readers when they note the changes they're making, like "they said your noes had been cut off, it's not as gruesome as all that", "all your books and you don't know what people will do" and "they said you were terrifying; you're not terrifying, you're boring".

Edited April 27, 2015 by cgf

[Cubarey]

"Because Ned would never have been clever enough to send Janos Slynt to the center of the Wall to reconnoiter a castle; Ned would never have made Thorne First Ranger to buy him off; Ned would have kept them under watch and then act all shocked when Janos and Thorne killed him in 6 months. You misread my whole point- namely that Tywin and Tyrion would have manipulated the situation to GET Janos to act the way JOn had to instigate that reaction;to get Janos to act like Janos. Ned certainly would not have bought off Thorne."

Actually as Stanos later seemed to imply "buying off" Thorne was a bad move. Frankly it is the kind of bad move that Ned would have done because , first on merit Thorne actually does deserve to be made First Ranger and second because it's a terrible political move, both key features of Ned's decision making process. Further Ned would likely have sent Slynt to the center of the Wall to refurbish a castle, because again Slynt would have been qualified to do so and the political implications of doing so would have gone right above Ned's head. Ned was a political Dullard but Jon's actions in this case only prove that he is only slightly better then Ned; he at least is trying to think politically. But the actual decisions he makes (he had no idea Slynt would be such an idiot to openly refuse a direct order so it's not like Jon was setting him up) are at least as bad as Ned. As we shall see in a few episodes when Throne as the First Ranger leads the conspiracy that gets Jon killed.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Cubarey

[Northernmonkey]

WTH is your problem?

I don't need to "jump" on Maggy to be aware that it's quite a nonsense change that a character who is portrayed as old, disgusting and strange was actually changed to look seemingly attractive. Really, was it THAT HARD to simply cast an older women who wasn't showing her breasts? No. They need to change THIS or THIS into THIS. Can you give a logical reasonable explanation for the change?

To be fair the haggard old crone with prophetic powers is a bit of a cliche. Having Maggy be a young woman doesn't actually change anything and was a legitimate change in my opinion.

The real question is why did they include the Maggy the Frog storyline in the first place? The whole thing felt a bit stupid in the books anyway, and childhood flashback scenes rarely work well on film.