If Mel is leaving with Stannis, does that mean Bran will save Jon? [Book Spoilers]

[Caius Cassius]

I really don't want Stannis or Shireen dead, and killing her would be fridging if Stannis lives and goes full Night King on Mel and Selyse. Trying to sacrifice her (but getting saved) would be enough. Stannis still has shit to do - if he dies, Dany has no real rival in Westeros. The Lannisters are finished, the Tyrells will turn their cloak the minute they see the dragons, Dorne is probably already Team Dany.

[clawson24]

I'm starting to think this season will break sync with other seasons - you know, 109 big death, 209 big battle, 309 big death, 409 big battle - the big death here might be right at the end of 510. Season 5 might leave the main plotlines hanging in exactly the same place as ADwD, well, other than Tyrion, who will probably totally skip being a slave and be Dany's advisor just before she flies away.

So, it is possible the Mannis/Shireen don't bite it until 510 either.

Everything could be left hanging in episode 510. Say Theon and Brienne rescue Sansa from Ramsay and meet up with the Mannis and then the Mannis dies and Ramsay smirks at Theon and Sansa, so we don't know what worse fate awaits those 2 until season 6.

Actually, here is a thought, Brienne could kill Stannis in 510, reminding him of his worst failing and avenging Renley.

Cut to Ramsay and Roose bearing down on what remains of Stannis' camp, to kill the (already dead) Mannis and reclaim their hostages.

Cut to Mel torching Shireen to rebirth Azor Ahai, as Selese has her emotional breakdown from the trailer.

Cut to Olly and co stabbing Jon. Jon sees Ghost. Fade to black. Season end.

So we may not find out until season 6 exactly how Jon's rebirth fits together and will debate whether he is raised by Bran or Mel for another year.

Just on the Nights King coming to take Jon away and Bloodraven and Bran saving him, I imagine a counter point, that Bloodraven and Bran will send the Nights king to take Jon away. Imagine if we get a final scene, after Jon is stabbed, with the Nights King coming into Bloodraven's cave and just looking at Bran, so that is left in the air until season 6 also.

Can't imagine that the show could end on such a depressing note in every single story line like that though. Sansa/Theon recaptured, Stannis dead, Shireen dead, Jon dead, etc. One or two cliffhangers is one thing but that many gut punches simultaneously with 10 months to wait until the next episode would seem like a pretty dumb idea by D&D.

[ummester]

Can't imagine that the show could end on such a depressing note in every single story line like that though. Sansa/Theon recaptured, Stannis dead, Shireen dead, Jon dead, etc. One or two cliffhangers is one thing but that many gut punches simultaneously with 10 months to wait until the next episode would seem like a pretty dumb idea by D&D.

I really don't think most fans are embracing how dark both the book series and show is set to become before it gets light - I think the build up is all there, on the page and in the show. True hope won't arrive until right at the end of ADoS, Season 7.

[mirthula]

I really don't think most fans are embracing how dark both the book series and show is set to become before it gets light - I think the build up is all there, on the page and in the show. True hope won't arrive until right at the end of ADoS, Season 7.

Show is dark yes if the good guys have dies so have the bad guys. GOT kills everyone equally. The point being we got two more seasons unless GOT style ending of the story everyone dies THE END.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Hmmm I can't say I would be terribly bummed if Shireen is killed.

Can't imagine that the show could end on such a depressing note in every single story line like that though. Sansa/Theon recaptured, Stannis dead, Shireen dead, Jon dead, etc. One or two cliffhangers is one thing but that many gut punches simultaneously with 10 months to wait until the next episode would seem like a pretty dumb idea by D&D.

I mean this is sort of how FfC and DwD ended, although with different people in different ways.

I emphasis sort of...

And we have waited over 4 years now...lost count.

[jet199]

In the Theon chapter from TWOW it seems pretty clear that Stannis intends to fake his death and his army's defeat so he can launch a surprise attack when the Boltons have their guard down. I'm not sure that D&D have the time to set that up, and don't Manderly to scheme or Freys to kill, so may will go straight for victory or defeat. However if they do go for the more complex plot then they will probably end with Stannis's fake defeat played straight and a report of his death, which has Selyse crying in the snow and the pink letter sent to the wall, but they will reveal that Stannis is still around at the beginning of season 6.

I don't think anyone is going to save Jon this season. The most we will get is warg eyes and Ghost trotting off. I really wonder whether anyone will purposely try to save Jon or whether it will be an accident which brings him back, I don't believe Mel is going to switch teams like some seem to. If anyone does save him it will be his family.

[Domonju]

I'm not sure about the Azor Ahai angle any more. They haven't mentioned it for a while in the show and they have let things just fall by the wayside in the past hoping the viewers don't remember.

Bran won't appear this season so I don't think he'll have anything to do with Jon's resurrection, if it happens this season. However, the cliffhanger this season may be Jon's death and perhaps he comes back next year.

They also have left out the increasing amount of warg powers that the Stark kids are experiencing. Both Arya and Jon are warging to some extent when they sleep, but this has not been remarked upon in the show, so the thought that Jon gets killed, inhabits Ghost's body, and then comes back, probably won't happen in the show.

I have a feeling that Jon will not be resurrected this season, if it happens.

It is a bit obvious they're setting up Olly to be the one to kill him though. Kind of like a 'e tu Olly?' scene.

Stannis is not going to get the North clans to his side as apparently he already has more men and horses than Bolton. Plus, what ever happened to Theon's sister? And Rickon? Like I wrote, the show will conveniently let things disappear and most viewers won't even remember.

[Mithras]

If you really think about it, you will see that Mel will try to burn Jon as a sacrifice before he dies, not save him.

Here is my thread about it. Below are some comments of mine:

Mel has been seeing Jon in her fires for a long time now. What if she deduces that it must be Jon whom she needs to roast as he is the only one with kingsblood available to her right now?

She probably knows that Mance's baby is far away. Now that Jon will be gravely injured and close to death, it might be the perfect time to burn an already dead man with precious kingsblood to send Stannis the dragon he needs.

We should also note that Jon made it very clear that he does not trust Mel anymore and he regrets trusting her with the Mance mission. Whatever Mel was trying to do with him (which were shadowbabies), she could not hope to do that anymore. So, whether his seeds or his blood, Mel is in desperate need of Jon. Since Jon is not in good shape to have sex, it narrows down the options.

Mel has been warning Jon since the beginning of ADwD. It is clear that she was trying to win his trust and that is because she wants to make shadowbabies with him. Jon ignored almost all of her advices/warnings and now got himself stabbed. I think it is now more plausible for Mel to go for Jon's blood, not his seeds.

[Mithras]

No, Sansa has her own story line and arch.

you lost me here :drunk:

Lady Stoneheart is much more important than Jeyne Poole yet ...

[kimim]

you lost me here :drunk:

Lady Stoneheart is much more important than Jeyne Poole yet ...

Sansa has already taken over those two roles. She's going to seek vengeance for her family (LSH) and she's the Stark marrying Bolton (Poole).

My sense is that the show hasn't diverged as dramatically as it could have:

Dany marries Hizdahr, opens the pits. Hizdahr tries to poison her, or there's panic for some other reason, and Dany takes off on Drogon. Her arc this season ends where Dance ended--Dany+Drogon meet a khalasar.

Jon is going to Hardhome. Show ends with his assassination there. I think he'll die, and be resurrected by Bran, Brynden, or CoF, next season.

Olenna shows up at KL, along with LF. Cersei might want LF to fix the financial mess for her, or to find the gold to build a navy for her (LF=Aurane Waters). Meanwhile, Olenna works for her family, so Loras gets a chance and Cersei ends up imprisoned and does the walk of shame. Story could end where the novels did, with the announcement of winter. It is possible that Varys returns, and kills someone capable (Olenna? Kevan?) to make Dany's conquest easier.

Doran will probably get his family under control, and send the Sand Snakes to KL--which happens in the novels.

Sansa will probably escape Winterfell with Theon and Brienne, the way fArya did.

Given that I believe shows are keeping major plot points, what happens to Stannis will be the big Winds spoiler, as the battle for Winterfell will probably take place this season.

[Boudica]

I really don't think most fans are embracing how dark both the book series and show is set to become before it gets light - I think the build up is all there, on the page and in the show. True hope won't arrive until right at the end of ADoS, Season 7.

The series may become very dark, but leaving so many cliffhangers at the end of a series is not good story telling. Cliffhangers could entice viewers for the next season but too many cliffhangers can also be gimmicky, and people might see it as being your typical TV drama and they might lose interest. There also needs to be a bit of hope or something to look forward to.

Some of the biggest critiques against AFFC and ADWD is all of the cliffhangers and story lines that where left unresolved. It would be an ever bigger mistake to try this for TV, because people see TV cliffhanger almost every week. But so far they have been good when it comes to these types of cliffhangers, like for example in this episode where Tyrion falls into the river and the screen blacks out, but they did not leave it as a cliffhanger for next week. It would have been silly because most people would not really think anything would really happen with Tyrion. And perhaps the situation with Jon somewhat similar. They might as well show what happens after the stabbing. But because it is such a big event, I could also see them leaving it as a cliffhanger like in the books, perhaps as the second last scene of episode 10.

It is obvious that they will change some events when it comes to the battles this season. Most people are really looking forward to the battle for Winterfell, but it seems like there is not going to be a big battle for Winterfell. It looks like it might just be a small skirmish, or perhaps they are leaving the bigger battle for next season. The big battle in the North will be at Hardhome, and I think it makes a lot of sense. They really need to show the White Walkers as a thread. The thread of the White Walkers have been on the background for to long, they need to start doing something, there is not that much time left. They need to reach the South and there are only 25 episodes left. With the battle for Winterfell being a much smaller event it does make you wonder what will happen to Stannis.

It also seems like there will not really be a battle for for Mereen, it will just be one guerrilla attack, in Daznak's Pit.

[Faint]

This obviously comes down to personal preference but I am not a big fan of the artistic decision to close this season with Jon's assassination followed by his immediate resurrection in the first episode of next season. That presumes, of course, that he will be resurrected relatively quickly. It might actually turn our that he is in limbo for a while, in which case I have no issues with the lag between death and resurrection.

I actually have much the same criticism of Martin's books, if it does turn out that Jon is resurrected pretty soon after his stabbing. Frankly, that sort of thing is not worth the artificial cliffhanger it is trying to sell to the reader.

[Boudica]

I'm not sure about the Azor Ahai angle any more. They haven't mentioned it for a while in the show and they have let things just fall by the wayside in the past hoping the viewers don't remember.

Bran won't appear this season so I don't think he'll have anything to do with Jon's resurrection, if it happens this season. However, the cliffhanger this season may be Jon's death and perhaps he comes back next year.

All of the Azor Ahai, the last hero and the prince that was promised prophesies, are really interesting in the books. But even in the books, all of these prophesies are not really mentioned that much. The show has basically almost completely ignored these prophesies, it does feel like somewhat of a red herring at times, or it feels as if these prophesies are being overestimated. We might never even know exactly who these people are suppose to be.

The situation with Bran is interesting, because the exact same thing happened with the books, where a late Bran chapter was cut from ADWD. I think it could very likely be that Bran communicates with Jon, and that we learn Jon's fate through Bran.

If you really think about it, you will see that Mel will try to burn Jon as a sacrifice before he dies, not save him.

Here is my thread about it. Below are some comments of mine:

Mel has been seeing Jon in her fires for a long time now. What if she deduces that it must be Jon whom she needs to roast as he is the only one with kingsblood available to her right now?

She probably knows that Mance's baby is far away. Now that Jon will be gravely injured and close to death, it might be the perfect time to burn an already dead man with precious kingsblood to send Stannis the dragon he needs.

We should also note that Jon made it very clear that he does not trust Mel anymore and he regrets trusting her with the Mance mission. Whatever Mel was trying to do with him (which were shadowbabies), she could not hope to do that anymore. So, whether his seeds or his blood, Mel is in desperate need of Jon. Since Jon is not in good shape to have sex, it narrows down the options.

Mel has been warning Jon since the beginning of ADwD. It is clear that she was trying to win his trust and that is because she wants to make shadowbabies with him. Jon ignored almost all of her advices/warnings and now got himself stabbed. I think it is now more plausible for Mel to go for Jon's blood, not his seeds.

That sounds like a very plausible theory, it would make sense if Melisandre wanted to burn Jon as quickly as possible.

you lost me here :drunk:

Lady Stoneheart is much more important than Jeyne Poole yet ...

Lol it is funny when you look at it that way. But what I mean is that Sansa will have her own story after 7 seasons, she might be doing something else this season but in the end there will be a point to her story, she has her own end game that must fit into overall end of the story. Changing her directly into Lady Stoneheart would not make sense. It does not seem as if Lady Stoneheart will be a very important character, Sansa as a character is much more important, she fits into the overall story and the overall ending whereas I doubt that Lady Stoneheart will have any major impact on the overall story.

[Faint]

I love how Martin goes out and tells everybody who will listen that they are thinking of Melisandre in the wrong fashion but that has absolutely no effect on how people go on thinking about her.

[Boudica]

This obviously comes down to personal preference but I am not a big fan of the artistic decision to close this season with Jon's assassination followed by his immediate resurrection in the first episode of next season. That presumes, of course, that he will be resurrected relatively quickly. It might actually turn our that he is in limbo for a while, in which case I have no issues with the lag between death and resurrection.

I actually have much the same criticism of Martin's books, if it does turn out that Jon is resurrected pretty soon after his stabbing. Frankly, that sort of thing is not worth the artificial cliffhanger it is trying to sell to the reader.

I do agree. And when when you think about the situation a bit further, it will all properly depend on what Jon's condition actually is after the stabbing. A cliffhanger is about creating tension, anticipation and a talking point. If Jon is just gravely injured or in a coma, then I can see them making it into a cliffhanger, because people will obviously be shocked and they would want to find out if he survives or not, that would be the anticipation and talking point.

But if Jon actually dies and he requires some form of resurrection, then I could see them adding the resurrection scene to this season.

Having one of the main characters die and being resurrected, would still be a shocking event, and it would still cause anticipation and a big talking point for next season. Basically being resurrected from the dead works just as well for a cliffhanger, as being either dead or alive. After all of the R+L=J clues so far this season, it would work especially well if Jon was burned on a pyre and he stands up and walks out of the flames. It would confirm his Targaryen blood, which would create another talking point.

[Grail King]

I just want to see how they do the jon warging ghost scene.

[Witchy]

Based on the fact that the prologue in A Dance with Dragons is all about teaching us how warging works and what happens to a warg when he dies, I fully expect Jon to die and warg into Ghost. I expect Melissandre to be the one who understands what has happened and that Jon's soul is safe inside Ghost. Then she'll revive him as The Lord of Light. Who knows how much time will pass between the two events.

Whatever happens in the books, on the show, Kit Harrington will remain Jon Snow. The audience is invested in Kit as Jon. (I think we'll see the same with Arya...she will spend very little time in a different actor's body because the audience is invested in Maisie as Arya.) So if the books have Jon becoming a new person, I think the show will deviate from that, and that means Jon can't be dead or in Ghost's body for very long on the show. I think Stannis' days are numbered at this point in the books and on the show. I've always thought so, but the show is making me more certain by having Stannis become so much more likable in the past couple episodes. You know, so it will hurt more when they kill him horribly.

In the books, Mel stays in Castle Black so many speculated that she is the one who will save Jon. But since she leaves in the show, is it likely that Bran will guide Jon back to life? Bran has superpowers!

Since it is different from the books, it does make me wonder about a quote by G.R.R.M.

"This is going to drive your readers crazy, but I love it. I'm still weighing whether to go that direction or not. It's a great twist. It's easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations...This is something that seems very organic and natural, and I could see how it would happen. And with the various three, four characters involved... it all makes sense. But it's nothing I've ever thought of before."

Could it be that the change he is referring to is Mel going away? With Bran and Co. being freed up from the possibility of having to rescue Jon, does that mean they're going to do something we never expected?

[Sultan of Westeros]

Jon might be injured not dead and bran will bring Jon back to health the same way three eyed raven brought bran back to health.

[buckfosto]

Based on the fact that the prologue in A Dance with Dragons is all about teaching us how warging works and what happens to a warg when he dies, I fully expect Jon to die and warg into Ghost. I expect Melissandre to be the one who understands what has happened and that Jon's soul is safe inside Ghost. Then she'll revive him as The Lord of Light. Who knows how much time will pass between the two events.

Whatever happens in the books, on the show, Kit Harrington will remain Jon Snow. The audience is invested in Kit as Jon. (I think we'll see the same with Arya...she will spend very little time in a different actor's body because the audience is invested in Maisie as Arya.) So if the books have Jon becoming a new person, I think the show will deviate from that, and that means Jon can't be dead or in Ghost's body for very long on the show. I think Stannis' days are numbered at this point in the books and on the show. I've always thought so, but the show is making me more certain by having Stannis become so much more likable in the past couple episodes. You know, so it will hurt more when they kill him horribly.

I agree with this. He's not putting that prologue in the book for his health. Not to mention Bran's dream in AGOT of seeing Jon "laying on a bed of ice as all warmth leaves his body". They've already established that the Ice Cells can preserve a dead body so I think that's where he will be kept until he's revived as Azor Ahai. Kill the boy and let the man be born".

As for the show, I wouldn't be surprised if, for Arya, they don't have go into another body at all. No one knows her in Braavos so she could just be disguised and use the acting skills like in the Mercy chapter.

[Faint]

Especially when it comes to timing, I do not think we should be using the books as a guidepost. Almost everything on the adaption is accelerated.