NFL Offseason 2015: Patriots victimized by Goodell, own damn selves

[Locke_Lamora]

Or the fantasy-land version where I actually said this.

But whatever. I am still stuck here in the lobby of the NFL handcuffed to these... wait am I still typing....?

Rock, don't want you to think i'm ignoring you as I have been throwing you some heat, but I really don't get this. I quoted you verbatim. If it's a joke that went over my head I apologize.

I just assumed that the 16 psi thing was an exaggeration for effect. Here's what I consider a reasonable scenario for how this all went down:

For years Brady expressed his preference to have the balls at the legal limit for underinflation. The ball boys accommodate, and everything is going fine. At the Jets game, the official measures the balls and some of them are a little low. Instead of pumping it up to 11.5 psi, they go well beyond that. The ball boys can do nothing. Brady has a bad game against the Jets, and is pissed, chews out the J&M. They make excuses that it was the ref that fucked up and the balls were at 11.5, and shouldn't have been inflated further. Brady doesn't want to hear it. Whether explicitly stated or not, J&M know that if Brady continues to be unhappy with the balls, they will be fired.

Now, someone, either Brady or J&M came up with the idea of deflating the balls post-inspection to ensure that the refs don't fuck things up. This isn't rocket science, if you stick the needle in a ball for a couple of seconds you'll lose enough air to match Brady's preferences. Was this Brady's idea? Maybe, I have no idea. Did he know about it? Almost assuredly. I doubt very much J&M would take this kind of action without running it by Brady, and obviously he was in contact with them.

Is this really a big deal? Depends. It is definitely cheating, definitely subverting the rules. To catch the team that won the Super Bowl deliberately subverting the rules is a big deal. But the actual crime is pretty small potatoes - ball inflation is a minimal advantage, mostly just a matter of preference.

Very good post!

Then couldn't one assume that the "Deflator" talk etc were also exaggeration for effect and maybe Brady's just a ballbuster about getting absolute legal-minimum inflation?

For what it's worth, I find your scenario plausible, even kind to Brady.

You are right, very plausible and very kind to Brady. The most plausible part though is that in this situation Tom Brady still knows about it and still OKs it even if he wasn't the mastermind. Still lies about it as well.

[DanteGabriel]

Agree with all of this. I'm good. I feel like I can now go back to devoting all my attention to deriding Goodell.

In my reckoning of the NFL threads, you are kind of the arbiter of what is a reasonable football opinion in these discussions, so I declare victory.

[Trebla]

All kidding and funny memes aside, I do have some sympathy for the Pats on this. JaimeL brought up how the Cowboys and Skins got royally hosed by the league over that uncapped year and the freaking Giants owner was allowed to lead that charge. Roger Goodell is a goddamn embarrassment.

[Rockroi]

I read up to but not limited to, meaning it is not limited to just the 25k fine. Also repeat offenders. Also why did Tom Brady lie on national television? Had he not i think this would be a whole different situation.

One of the over-arching messages to come out of the punishment was the bald-faced arrogance of the Patriots and how that rankled the NFL, Goodell, Vincent and Wells. That the Patriots were so arrogant and self-righteous about their innocence, that is pissed off "the deciders" and they put the screws to Belichick (the two picks), Brady (the 4 games) and Kraft (the $1M, which I agree is chump-change to these guys, but it was also the largest fine ever levied in NFL History).

To which I say- fuck the NFL. If the NFL doesn't like it when their members "don't salute properly" then any player, any owner, any coach and any team can be fined, punished and disciplined for, literally, anything. Its about as shitty and fucking stupid as anything that shit-eating moron Goodell could manage (I get that phrase from a Deadspin article which can be found here - http://deadspin.com/roger-goodell-is-a-shit-eating-moron-1703762629). Punishing a team because they are jerks? By that logic the Ravens should be a CFL team by now (time will tell on that, btw).

I find the logic that had the Pats been "nicer" they would have gotten off easier to be equal parts "wishful thinking" and "if true, stupid." That's not the way we should do investigations etc.

[lancerman]

The language of the rule was "including but not limited to a 25k fine". In other words, the 25k fine will be the minimum penalty that is applied.

Again this 40 times that 25k and there are zero instances of equipment tampering violations, even ones where people get caught red handed, getting much more than 25k, in fact it's almost never.

It's like saying if you steal something from a grocery story you can get up to a $5000 fine and instead you get a $200,000 fine, go to jail for a month, and have your drivers license suspended for a year. And that's the first time they ever went over the standard $5000 fine. That's the rough equivalent to how much higher they went.

[DanteGabriel]

You are right, very plausible and very kind to Brady. The most plausible part though is that in this situation Tom Brady still knows about it and still OKs it even if he wasn't the mastermind. Still lies about it as well.

We have established that I already thought 2-4 games was a reasonable range of punishment for Brady for probably knowing about and possibly instigating the deflation. Chances are, if the punishment had just been a 4 game suspension for Brady and maybe a big fine for the team, I would have shrugged and I'd have spent the last few pages lamenting how badly Brady handled the initial press conference. I don't know why you are still hammering on the Brady issue.

But penalizing them the draft picks is ridiculous. Like I said: there is no logic to it. It's basically letting everyone know that Goodell is going to punish you based on his own whims. Had golf with your owner recently? Two games! You didn't bend over for the lawyer we sent to poke into your affairs about ball deflation? Fuck you, lose some high draft picks! Have fun with that, rest of NFL. I can't wait for Mad King Roger to burn his next victim.

[Rockroi]

Rock, don't want you to think i'm ignoring you as I have been throwing you some heat, but I really don't get this. I quoted you verbatim. If it's a joke that went over my head I apologize.

You never quoted me verbatim on me saying Brady was Innocent; I never said this. What I said was that Brady, most likely, said that he liked the footballs being at the low end and not heavily inflated and then complained probably every single time the equipment people or refs gave him a ball over-inflated. So much so that the equipment people knew that they had to make Brady happy. Brady most likely NEVER said "Hey, make sure these footballs are below 12.6 psi or I will murder you and your whole family! You better get into a bathroom and reduce the air pressure right before every game." Most likely it was a sentiment that he made clear and these guys knew that they had to provide the 12.5 psi balls, and sometimes, well, they went lower.

Now, that does NOT make Brady innocent as he is encouraging the illegal behavior and these chuckleheads know their jobs depend on this (in part); so they do it and that means Brady was "aware."

The issue has always been what the punishment should have been; this punishment is excessive in every single regard, without exception. Too much money, too many picks, the picks are too good, and to many games for Brady to serve as suspension. That was always my point.

That and Goodwell is a shit eating moron.... which, again, can be found here http://deadspin.com/roger-goodell-is-a-shit-eating-moron-1703762629

[Locke_Lamora]

One of the over-arching messages to come out of the punishment was the bald-faced arrogance of the Patriots and how that rankled the NFL, Goodell, Vincent and Wells. That the Patriots were so arrogant and self-righteous about their innocence, that is pissed off "the deciders" and they put the screws to Belichick (the two picks), Brady (the 4 games) and Kraft (the $1M, which I agree is chump-change to these guys, but it was also the largest fine ever levied in NFL History).

To which I say- fuck the NFL. If the NFL doesn't like it when their members "don't salute properly" then any player, any owner, any coach and any team can be fined, punished and disciplined for, literally, anything. Its about as shitty and fucking stupid as anything that shit-eating moron Goodell could manage (I get that phrase from a Deadspin article which can be found here - http://deadspin.com/roger-goodell-is-a-shit-eating-moron-1703762629). Punishing a team because they are jerks? By that logic the Ravens should be a CFL team by now (time will tell on that, btw).

I find the logic that had the Pats been "nicer" they would have gotten off easier to be equal parts "wishful thinking" and "if true, stupid." That's not the way we should do investigations etc.

It's got nothing to do with being nicer Rock. Everything to do with simply telling the truth... If Brady tells the truth then you're not sitting here criticizing the investigation because guess what NO investigation. Also probably no superb owl because TB would have to sit that one out. So personally I think the Pats win out in this exchange. (BTW and I did post it on here (having trouble searching my posts anyone else?), I wanted the Pats to win :-) )

[Reny of Storms End]

Why this arbitrary cutoff point of ten years? They are the post-salary-cap dynasty, who won multiple championships in an age when that was supposed to be impossible. If you are going to analyze the record of the Patriots and the reasons for them to be so polarizing, it only makes sense to track it to 2001 and the start of the Brady-Belichick era.

I guess using the start of the salary cap would also work. Really I picked ten years because a decade seems like a good sample size (team of the decade kinda thing). I was trying to avoid a discussion wherein each participant moved the time frame back further and further.

[trickster]

I just assumed that the 16 psi thing was an exaggeration for effect. Here's what I consider a reasonable scenario for how this all went down:

For years Brady expressed his preference to have the balls at the legal limit for underinflation. The ball boys accommodate, and everything is going fine. At the Jets game, the official measures the balls and some of them are a little low. Instead of pumping it up to 11.5 psi, they go well beyond that. The ball boys can do nothing. Brady has a bad game against the Jets, and is pissed, chews out the J&M. They make excuses that it was the ref that fucked up and the balls were at 11.5, and shouldn't have been inflated further. Brady doesn't want to hear it. Whether explicitly stated or not, J&M know that if Brady continues to be unhappy with the balls, they will be fired.

Now, someone, either Brady or J&M came up with the idea of deflating the balls post-inspection to ensure that the refs don't fuck things up. This isn't rocket science, if you stick the needle in a ball for a couple of seconds you'll lose enough air to match Brady's preferences. Was this Brady's idea? Maybe, I have no idea. Did he know about it? Almost assuredly. I doubt very much J&M would take this kind of action without running it by Brady, and obviously he was in contact with them.

Is this really a big deal? Depends. It is definitely cheating, definitely subverting the rules. To catch the team that won the Super Bowl deliberately subverting the rules is a big deal. But the actual crime is pretty small potatoes - ball inflation is a minimal advantage, mostly just a matter of preference.

Like this, more or less my take on the situation. But I think you meant 12.5 (which is the lower limit).

[Locke_Lamora]

You never quoted me verbatim on me saying Brady was Innocent; I never said this. What I said was that Brady, most likely, said that he liked the footballs being at the low end and not heavily inflated and then complained probably every single time the equipment people or refs gave him a ball over-inflated. So much so that the equipment people knew that they had to make Brady happy. Brady most likely NEVER said "Hey, make sure these footballs are below 12.6 psi or I will murder you and your whole family! You better get into a bathroom and reduce the air pressure right before every game." Most likely it was a sentiment that he made clear and these guys knew that they had to provide the 12.5 psi balls, and sometimes, well, they went lower.

Now, that does NOT make Brady innocent as he is encouraging the illegal behavior and these chuckleheads know their jobs depend on this (in part); so they do it and that means Brady was "aware."

The issue has always been what the punishment should have been; this punishment is excessive in every single regard, without exception. Too much money, too many picks, the picks are too good, and to many games for Brady to serve as suspension. That was always my point.

That and Goodwell is a shit eating moron.... which, again, can be found here http://deadspin.com/roger-goodell-is-a-shit-eating-moron-1703762629

Well I guess you and I got different things out of your posts then. If you truly think Brady is guilty I do not understand how you think the punishment is excessive (again I already stated I would probably have made the 1st pick a 2nd, and allow Brady to appeal down to 2 games). I mean I think i spent many of my last posts laying out precisely why it was an acceptable punishment whereas all the pats fans are screaming only about the severity with no precedent.

prec·e·dent

noun

ˈpresəd(ə)nt/

1. 1.

   an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.

Please show me one team who has just got caught for something similar to this which also had SPYGATE in it's rear-view window. (Since you guys like citing the post-salary cap era let's use that time frame)

The point I am trying to make is that this is uncharted waters. You cannot compare this to anything else in recent football history.

We have established that I already thought 2-4 games was a reasonable range of punishment for Brady for probably knowing about and possibly instigating the deflation. Chances are, if the punishment had just been a 4 game suspension for Brady and maybe a big fine for the team, I would have shrugged and I'd have spent the last few pages lamenting how badly Brady handled the initial press conference. I don't know why you are still hammering on the Brady issue.

But penalizing them the draft picks is ridiculous. Like I said: there is no logic to it. It's basically letting everyone know that Goodell is going to punish you based on his own whims. Had golf with your owner recently? Two games! You didn't bend over for the lawyer we sent to poke into your affairs about ball deflation? Fuck you, lose some high draft picks! Have fun with that, rest of NFL. I can't wait for Mad King Roger to burn his next victim.

Yeah sorry don't mean it to seem like I am hammering on you. I think only one of my responses was directly at you instead of kind of just being my thoughts on the situation. Mostly just Rock because he is being a little silly :-P

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

In my reckoning of the NFL threads, you are kind of the arbiter of what is a reasonable football opinion in these discussions, so I declare victory.

Have to second this. I think it's fair to say that JaimeL is one of the fairest minded posters here.

[Jace, Extat]

Have to second this. I think it's fair to say that JaimeL is one of the fairest minded posters here.

You're all so full of fucking shit! Everyone knows that I'm the fairest, nicest, and most unbiased poster here! ME!!!

;) Jaime's pretty great.

[Jaime L]

In my reckoning of the NFL threads, you are kind of the arbiter of what is a reasonable football opinion in these discussions, so I declare victory.

Have to second this. I think it's fair to say that JaimeL is one of the fairest minded posters here.

That's high praise!

Again this 40 times that 25k and there are zero instances of equipment tampering violations, even ones where people get caught red handed, getting much more than 25k, in fact it's almost never.

It's like saying if you steal something from a grocery story you can get up to a $5000 fine and instead you get a $200,000 fine, go to jail for a month, and have your drivers license suspended for a year. And that's the first time they ever went over the standard $5000 fine. That's the rough equivalent to how much higher they went.

The fine is definitely excessive. And randomly determined. Think the highest before it was Bountygate and that was $500K and that was for a way more serious incident. But as a fan, that's the only part I wouldn't care about it because it won't affect my team's performance. Hell, I wish my owner got fined more. And stuff like fans setting up a GoFundMe where they can donate to offset the fine, I mean, really, that's what you want to do with your money? I'm sure Robert Kraft appreciates the gesture from you working schmos, but really he's able to find that $9K you raised just getting up from the couch.

[lancerman]

That's high praise!

The fine is definitely excessive. And randomly determined. Think the highest before it was Bountygate and that was $500K and that was for a way more serious incident. But as a fan, that's the only part I wouldn't care about it because it won't affect my team's performance. Hell, I wish my owner got fined more. And stuff like fans setting up a GoFundMe where they can donate to offset the fine, I mean, really, that's what you want to do with your money? I'm sure Robert Kraft appreciates the gesture from you working schmos, but really he's able to find that $9K you raised just getting up from the couch.

Oh I think it's ridiculous that the fans are doing that to. Makes no sense. Kraft is a billionaire. The money is going to the people you are mad ay why.

As a fan of the team, the draft picks and the suspension are far and away the worst part. I'd rather they reduce those and keep the fine. Even though I think the whole thing is exorbitant. In fact if they just kept the suspension and maybe just took away a 4th I think it would be more reasonable.

[The BlackBear]

As a total outsider to American Football (I only watch the Superbowl,) why don't they just have game balls provided by the league that are held onto by the officials? Only one ball is on the field at any one time, no one can fuck around with anything.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

As a total outsider to American Football (I only watch the Superbowl,) why don't they just have game balls provided by the league that are held onto by the officials? Only one ball is on the field at any one time, no one can fuck around with anything.

Because two of their premier Quaterbacks (namely Peyton Manning and Tom Brady) petitioned the league back in 2006 to allow the QBs more control over the preperation of the balls. This allowed the equipment managers for the various teams to prep the balls to their QBs liking, just so long as they were within a certain set of measurable standards.

Despite the fact that you didn't ask this question, I'm guessing it is implied. Yes, this is completely ridiculous and more or less set up the possibility of this "scandal" that they are presently dealing with. Had they simply maintained control of the balls, this never could have occurred.

[The BlackBear]

Because two of their premier Quaterbacks (namely Peyton Manning and Tom Brady) petitioned the league back in 2006 to allow the QBs more control over the preperation of the balls. This allowed the equipment managers for the various teams to prep the balls to their QBs liking, just so long as they were within a certain set of measurable standards.

Despite the fact that you didn't ask this question, I'm guessing it is implied. Yes, this is completely ridiculous and more or less set up the possibility of this "scandal" that they are presently dealing with. Had they simply maintained control of the balls, this never could have occurred.

So they did have control and chose to give it up?

[Rhom]

Just watched Aaron Rodgers on celebrity Jeopardy! wipe the floor with an astronaut and a guy from Shark Tank. Was pretty impressive.

He didn't do very well in the category about Cal-Berkely alums though...

[Legarous2]

Brady has apparently lawyered up with a man who has a history of destroying the league in lawsuits. Hold on to your hats kids, this could get ugly.