[BOOK and SHOW SPOILERS] So what is Littlefinger's game now?

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Why would Sansa decide to marry him if Stannis were to win?

Am I the only one that sees a love interest there?

[grumpus]

For all that TV Littlefinger is supposedly idiotic, when I saw what he was doing with Cersei, I finally saw the brilliance in what he was doing. It's mad, reckless brilliance, but it's brilliance nonetheless. He is playing everyone off everyone else, providing their secrets to each other to prove himself a friend to all. Even with Stannis, he hopes to curry favour as the protector of Ned Stark's daughter. He said this season that he's a betting man, but what he's actually doing is hedging his bets so that no matter who wins, he'll be the trusted and proven friend of the victor.

I do expect him to take steps to undermine Cersei, though, since Cersei has it out for Sansa and therefore has to go. I imagine Olenna will be leaning pretty hard on Olyvar to recant his testimony or on Littlefinger to silence Olyvar. Littlefinger certainly has a strong incentive to ensure that the Tyrells are the winners in the Lannister/Tyrell struggle.

I have no doubt that TV Littlefinger's plans will fail, just as I expect Book Littlefinger's plans will fail, for much the same reasons as in the books:

1. He's counting on Sansa's continued loyalty.

2. Bran and Rickon are still alive.

3. He hasn't factored Dany and her dragons into the mix (that we know of).

Spot on. And there's also Winter. I don't think he (or anyone else) has factored into their plans the kind of stuff that's going to come from the north. I think the wall is coming down, among other things.

The Lannisters are done. Tywin's dead, the gold is running out, and Cersei might not even need help being undermined anymore.

Also there's the Dorne wild card. Littlefinger will probably figure that it doesn't matter what happens down south with the Tyrells and Martells as long as he has ample time to take the North and consolidate it with the Riverlands and The Vale, leaving himself with enough power to take the throne. And with a long winter coming, it seems he would get his wish. Except that it's not just cold and snow that's coming this winter...

[The Mighty Nutsaculus]

I think today's episode was our first real TWOW spoiler - Littlefinger's next book move will be to take the North.

Now of course, LF is not going to marry off Sansa to Ramsay in the books. This is a TV-invention that helped crowd many characters into one setting, a necessary element of the medium. While I've found the Sansa-in-Winterfell plot completely illogical from the POV of Roose, LF, and Sansa herself, I can understand the motivation for bringing these folks together from the directors' point-of-view. That's all water under the bridge, though. What matters is what happens next.

I think it is pretty clear now that book-LF is going to play a very similar game in TWOW. Stannis will probably win, and a very desperate Cersei, whose kingdom is coming apart (Aegon, Dornish Fire and Blood, Ironborn Reavers, dissension with the Tyrells, and then Stannis taking the north) would be open to a deal similar to the one LF offered in E6. He then reveals Sansa as Sansa only after he holds much of the Riverlands and is in the north, and actually needs her in order to bring northerners to his side. At this point, she'd also be safe from Cersei. LF is assuming that the Vale can defeat whatever is left of Stannis's army and that Sansa will help secure northern support. These are actually pretty good assumptions, or at least wouldn't be if an army of the dead wasn't heading that way and if Stannis wasn't the Mannis. While I don't pretend to know how this will all exactly play out, I do think we have caught our first big glimpse of the books' future. I wouldn't say LF looking North is surprising (many people have predicted such) but it does seem a lot more likely as of today.

I was confused about this. Is he turning against Sansa?

[rozemarijn]

A lot of people mention it is stupid that Littlefinger did not know how mad Ramsay is. But that is not true. He told Ramsay he did not know anything about him. Guess what, he was lying.

He told Sansa in the crypts that everyone in the North hated crazy Ramsay and the Boltons and that she had to sit it out untill Stannis rescued her.

The reason why he leaves her is very clear. They need her family name, which keeps her safe. Ramsay can rape ger, which will not kill her, but he cannot do anything worse because she is giving him legitimacy. It's the same in the books Roose is mad at Ramsay because Farya cries and he points out the Northern lords might be dangerous if they find out 'their precious Ned little girl' is unhappy.

Sansa knows this as well: remember the bath scene. Stupid Myranda is trying to scare her by telling her Ramsay hunts woman who bore him and Sansa is like 'bitch please, I am Sansa Stark' she said she was home, but she was not talking about literally a home, she was talking the power her family name brings in the North, the protection.

So Littlefinger is not stupid, it is a very calculated risk to leave Sansa in the arms of a psychopath. He trusts the protection of her family name (which the Boltons need) and he trusts her own ability to keep Ramsay entertained.

She'll be fine.

[Darryk]

Littlefinger in the show is being made out to be a cunning schemer, but one who does make mistakes and his plans aren't fooproof, as opposed to the evil genius he is in the books.

My guess is he's playing all sides to see who comes out on top, but underestimating Ramsay Bolton is just one of is many oversights.

[David Selig]

Littlefinger in the show is being made out to be a cunning schemer, but one who does make mistakes and his plans aren't fooproof, as opposed to the evil genius he is in the books.

He is not cunning at all, he's quite the dumbass.

[Sultan of Westeros]

I have a bigger slightly crackpot theory on LF in the show atleast. He has been using the line " I live to serve" too often and we see Jaqen H'gar saying the same about Faceless men,even in this episode. I can't help but connect these two things together.

He is of braavosi descent. It may be a phrase commonly used in braavos.

[Sultan of Westeros]

Littlefinger in the show is being made out to be a cunning schemer, but one who does make mistakes and his plans aren't fooproof, as opposed to the evil genius he is in the books.

My guess is he's playing all sides to see who comes out on top, but underestimating Ramsay Bolton is just one of is many oversights.

He is getting a bow in the end of season from varys

[Sultan of Westeros]

He is not cunning at all, he's quite the dumbass.

If LF is dumbass i wonder what it makes cersie.

He is agent of chaos and can be described as Joker of Westeros.

[Ted Chang]

Littlefinger in the show is being made out to be a cunning schemer, but one who does make mistakes and his plans aren't fooproof, as opposed to the evil genius he is in the books.

My guess is he's playing all sides to see who comes out on top, but underestimating Ramsay Bolton is just one of is many oversights.

For me this is pretty close to where I sit. LF is a man who can't fight. Men who can't fight either get by on their wits or they don't get by at all. He doesn't have Google to fall back on. He has to guess what is going to happen, and being as he cannot with any certainty he is polaying both sides. This is hardly original behaviour. He is hedging his bets. Sure, he covets the throne but not, as some seem to think, at the cost of his life. That's my opinion anyway. A lot of stuff it appears he is having to make up on the hoof. Let's face it, it wasn't part of his plan to have to teleport back to see Cersei, so he had to tell her something. I recall reading may years ago that all the best lies have a germ of truth in them. The bigger the germ, the better. No doubt if he ended up meeting Stannis he'd have some story part-concocted to placate him as well. I'd be disappointed if he didn't.

[David Selig]

If LF is dumbass i wonder what it makes cersie.

Well, show Cersie is no dumber than him. Both are pretty dumb and survive by luck mostly,

[SerFlayos]

In the show I decided to give the new Sansa plot some time. I still harbour serious doubts Roose Bolton would be so foolish as to accept Peytr's grand proposal. For now though let us assume show Roose is compliant with the scheme and isn't planning his own back stabbing on LF like a good book Roose would.

*This is a show theory, the show is more simple than the books & seem to have gotten rid of Ser Kevan who is a much bigger part of my main book theory (I'll type it up soon enough). So this is a more simple theory of how the show will play out, given the missing plots, the weird & wonderful new ones.

LF easily manipulated Cersei, that was his bread & butter, I don't think he'll ever have to bring her Sansa's head or that this clause will cause him any problems at all. He doesn't need the title Warden of the North, this is a ploy to make Cersei understand his motivations for helping her. He's smart enough to know the North only follow their own & it still has strong ties to the Vale & the Riverlands, both of which he conveniently controls. He also controls the ever learning Sansa, he believes she will remain loyal to him & through her he can cement an alliance to take down the Lannisters. He will call it revenge but he knows, Sansa may even know, it is a power grab.

*Assuming Stannis wins the battle of winter*. The one true King will know that LF brokered the Tyrell-Lannister alliance which cost him the Battle of Blackwater bay & his rightful chair. He will hold that against LF but he will also see that he's delivered him Sansa Stark, a big help in him winning over the North, particularly given the popularity of his fire god with the Northmen. Stannis will hate Peytr, he may one day plan to give him the justice he deserves but he is a practical man, he's pardoned men before & right now Stannis will need him. The Riverlands, the Vale (at full strength), the Baratheon army (bugger in the show of course) & the North (who may be bolstered by wildings soon) all together again would be formidable. Not to mention Magic Mel!
EDIT: If the Vale army gets there in time maybe they'd join Stannis early and Stannis may not hate LF as much.
With the in fighting between the Tyrell's and the Lannister's the Tyrell's may even cut their loses and bend the knee to Stannis. He'd probably be insulted by this though and his diplomacy would shine through and he may take a few minor characters to be burnt which may bring about another T-L alliance. It's actually a bit irrelevant as:
We've got Dorne, the one clear message the show has delivered us - Dorne no like Lannister. We get Dorne of the side of the rightful King & there you have it only one winner. Good idea LF.

Now let's say Roose win's the battle of winter (I don't think so, this is limited to this paragraph only). In this case LF does exactly what he said he'd do to Cersei. Beat a weakened Bolton army, have everything he'd have in his favoured idea minus the troublesome Stannis, mayhaps this would be an even better result for LF who could be able to rally the Tyrell's to his cause once more, after facilitating their latest falling out with the Lannisters (via Ollivar). Also would be great if he'd kill Ramsay, Sansa would love him for that.

Just want to say people doubt LF's battle plans, I don't think he'll be leading the lines shouting for Gondor, he's got Royce and may other battle hardened men on his side, as well as his own devious intelligence which he can put to use.

There are 4 other factions to contend with.
1)Frey's - Our friends of Frey shall be the smallest threat on this list but that does not make them the least troublesome. If Stannis wins to please him I think LF would have to let him crush them, giving the T-L's more time to arm. In the show they don't seem to have any of them at Winterfell or Moat Calin so this if anything makes them more dangerous but I'm not too concerned.

2) the Others - when are these guys gonna come, I don't know but I'd like to how Stannis will be on his little chair by that time but if not I think being a true King he'd go back and fight them, he's not about personal gain he's about duty. LF won't like this though and that is his truly biggest problem, LF doesn't care about the Others too much, [insert clichéd King of the ashes quote here].

3)The Faith- They're another thorn, they can muster power through the small folk who would have rallied again the T-L but are swayed against the ungodly True King. Unless they reveal the incest then they may fight for... LF? No. (brothel + Lancel's chat) Stannis? No. (wrong gods) The north? No. (wrong gods) Lannister? No (incest currupt) Tyrell? No (Margery & Loras in jail atm good luck). Dorne? No.(too sexually liberal, too many bastards) the Vale? Possible although the Vale=LF so No. Freys? No. (polygamy)

4) The obvious one I've left till last & not even touched upon- Daenerys. She will probably take the throne off Stannis/ LF. She's not going to Westeros until about season 7 when Stannis/LF can have defeated all. I feel when she does there shall be a temporary uneasy alliance fighting against the others who could save the people a lot of trouble by killing Stannis/ Dany.

Other people I have yet to factor in this is -

Jon Snow- I think he'll ultimately be on the Mel/Sansa side after he's resurrected. (rather than being torn between LF & Stannis he'll be torn between his sister and the witch that granted him life)
Bran- he won't be a big enough factor till Others time
Theon- he'll do his redemption.

RICKON- Now there's the biggest problem LF will face, Sansa's value plummets. I don't think LF could directly kill LF but he may hatch a that Mel/Jon will foil. Until Rickon LF has no great reason to kill Stannis.
Ser Kevan- If he's not killed he could cause serious trouble for Stannis or he could be wise enough to yield.

Ramsay- what will he do to Sansa? God knows

This is my first draft, go easy!

[jet199]

I think Cersei telling him to put Sansa's head on a spike was definite foreshadowing for LF's own fate at Sansa's hands which in the book is foreshadowed by Sansa's snow castle and Sweetrobin's doll. I can't wait to see LF's head on the walls of Winterfell.

[hallam]

It's been made clear in the show that if Tommen but gives the word, the Faith Militant will be smashed. Twice, now, he's been reluctant to give that order and cause bloodshed, first in 5x04 on the steps of the Sept, and most recently in 5x06, where he stayed the Kingsguard soldiers who were about to draw their swords. However, if events take a turn, maybe Tommen gives the order he's been loath to give so far.

Its a bit difficult to have a bloodbath in a cathederal without creating a worse problem.

But I think it quite likely Tommen is going to go all Thomas Becket on the High Septon if he doesn't release Margery.

[Masha]

Its a bit difficult to have a bloodbath in a cathederal without creating a worse problem.

But I think it quite likely Tommen is going to go all Thomas Becket on the High Septon if he doesn't release Margery.

I love dreams of nice storylines. If Cersei has her Walk of Shame, means that Tommen did nothing

[Shane snow]

i don't get littlefingers situation he told Sansa..he said stannis will beat the boltons and make Sansa the wardeness of the north...but what does this get little finger.. Stannis should hate littlefinger I would expect it's common knowledge the littlefinger was vital in bringing the lannisters and tyrells together and defeat stannis at blackwater seeing as he was givin harrenhal

[Ted Chang]

i don't get littlefingers situation he told Sansa..he said stannis will beat the boltons and make Sansa the wardeness of the north...but what does this get little finger.. Stannis should hate littlefinger I would expect it's common knowledge the littlefinger was vital in bringing the lannisters and tyrells together and defeat stannis at blackwater seeing as he was givin harrenhal

It just keeps a foot in as many camps as possible. If Stannis comes out on top LF can legitimately say he put Sansa into play to make his life easier. Not saying it would placate a stiff-neck like Stannis but what options does LF have. He doesn't know who will win so he is trying to get in bed with all of them to some degree or another. I actually think his machinations are fascinating.

[Shane snow]

It just keeps a foot in as many camps as possible. If Stannis comes out on top LF can legitimately say he put Sansa into play to make his life easier. Not saying it would placate a stiff-neck like Stannis but what options does LF have. He doesn't know who will win so he is trying to get in bed with all of them to some degree or another. I actually think his machinations are fascinating.

[Shane snow]

Don't think stannis would be forgiving to someone who had a hand in ruining his taking of kings landing. i understand that he's playing all the sides but it makes no sense. It's like Tyrion completely forgetting that littlefinger blamed the attempt on brans life on him.

[jet199]

Stannis is LF's biggest threat. LF probably doesn't realise that though. People have a habit of underestimating Stannis.