Is it time to start having that conversation? SPOILERS! book & show

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1. Mel presumably has at least the same training Thoros has had. She does not need to meet him to know how to resurrect people. Thoros also discovered it by accident. He thought he was just doing burial rites. So it's possible that the ability is dependent on how much magic is present in the world, not specifically on the skill or knowledge of the R'hllorist priest/priestess.

2. Aegon being real has zero to do with Jon being resurrected or not. Though he could provide a lovely source of king's blood for Mel to use.

3. Jon doesn't have to be dead. Depending on depth, none of those wounds would have to be fatal. Infection is more likely to kill him than the actual stab wounds.

4. The show may cut out the stabbing altogether.

5. Aegon not being in the show does NOT prove he's phony. It may prove that he doesn't affect the overall outcome of the story and doesn't sit the IT in the end. He can be real and still end up dead. He might even know about Jon or find out about him, and send Dany to find him.

[alienarea]

Also, the show can cut Aegon and kill Jon for good.

Jon Arryn, Jon Connington, Jon Snow.

Jon rhymes with gone

and so does Bronn.

[Victor227]

Back in the first four seasons the show ran somewhat along the same lines as the books (at least a similar vein). Now though, it feels like I'm watching strange ASOIAF fanfiction. I'm not going to take anything they do as fact, or even an indication of what will happen at all.

[addicted to snow]

I know its poor form to use the show as evidence but am I the only one who noticed that Mel is leaving the wall with Stannis? Normally I would be like whatevs show deviation but it seems like many people are counting on her to resurrect Jon. The problem is in the books she never met Thoros or heard about how he was able to save first Beric and then Catelyn. So Mel in show leaves + Mel in book doesn't know about resurrection = holes in a lot of theories. Like I said its just show stuff so who knows if its important. But what if Jon Snow and the R+L=J thing while still true is the biggest red herring in this series? Despite what people think it is and has always been a real possibility. If Aegon turns out to be genuine I'll forced to conclude that this is bad news... for Jon Snow.

Yeah and before someone links to the MTV interview with Carice I am aware of it and its from before Mel and Jon had their little near miss in Jon's chambers so it doesn't really prove anything.

/Flame on

Mel does not have to utilize Thoros/Beric Magic to resurrect Jon... She could utilize the exact same spell that MMD used to bring Khal Drogo back to life...

& Yes, Khal Drogo was dead. We know this because MMD said that "The Dead will dance here tonight" & The Khal was among those spirits dancing (along with Ned Stark, as odd as that may seem...

---

Jon will be spending quite a lot of time living i side of ghost in the next book... Probably the first half of TWOW or more... I personally do not think that he will EVER be reunited with his original body... When he retakes man form again, I think that he will have stolen Hodor from Bran...

[DavosSeaworthy]

Honestly, this whole show has gotten worse as the seasons progressed. D & D are fucking tool bags. I understand that you have to make changes, but they are fucking up big time. The books are awesome and the only changes they should have made are ones to streamline the show a bit, but now they are just changing the story completely. If I didn't watch Real Time with Bill Maher I would have cancelled HBO by now, this shit is just stupid.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Not sure why you are dismissing that interview. In it she breaks down what went into that seduction scene, then says there is an even bigger one coming up that she wants to see the Twitter reaction to. Since nothing big happened between them in E5 or E6, logically that must mean she is going back to the Wall for future scenes with him. It seems pretty conclusive.

ooooo no no no no, please tell me this is not a spin on the Sleeping Beauty tale...........

[JonisHenryTudor]

Honestly, this whole show has gotten worse as the seasons progressed. D & D are fucking tool bags. I understand that you have to make changes, but they are fucking up big time. The books are awesome and the only changes they should have made are ones to streamline the show a bit, but now they are just changing the story completely. If I didn't watch Real Time with Bill Maher I would have cancelled HBO by now, this shit is just stupid.

I think you are underestimating the task at hand. First they have to finish the series by S7 or 8 I believe.

Have you ever condensed several hundred pages into say 25 or 30? Shit changes, and a lot changes.....

[bent branch]

Well if I'm right R+L=J becomes completely irrelevant now doesn't it? By the same token if he is a red herring, to disguise what? A true born Targaryen heir assumed dead waiting in the wings until the end of the second act would definitely qualify.

Sometimes I wonder how many people actually know what a red herring is. Its more than just a false trail, it has to be a distraction from something else as well to be considered a true red herring.

Har! Practically no one on this forum.

Nah, the show is shit, and isn't even internally consistent, let alone consistent with the books.

This is so true.

[COYStars]

There's no guarantee that Jon will be stabbed in the show, is there?

No stabbing means no resurrection needed.

To be honest, if they do show the stabbing then (timeline-wise) it would probably need to be at the end of this series or during the course of (rather than a cliffhanger at the end of) the next one. So the show will resolve GRRM's cliffhanger and the question of whether or not he dies. I suspect that the show will cut this out for that reason, if only to buy GRRM time to publish WoW. Yes, there will be inevitable reveals in the end, but I suspect GRRM wants us to buy the books not knowing whether the ending will be different... and therefore I anticipate that the show and the books will follow quite different paths (as demonstrated by the comparitive position of Sansa in books and show) up to the general conclusion. And then maybe the ending will be the same... or maybe not.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Let's be honest, it's yet another version of "Dany will never make it to Westeros". And this one's based on quite a few hidden assumptions. Let's see, if we can spot them all...

Jon Snow was stabbed in the book, so he will get stabbed in the show, too. It'll be deadly. The author's potential plan of getting him out of that pickle involved Melisandre, and it would have to involve Melisandre in the show as well. But in the show Melisandre has left the Wall in the last episode, so there's no conceivable way of her coming back there.

Did I miss anything?

[Shpati]

I don't think the show wants to do overdue fake deaths/resurrections like the books do. So he could very well die and be resurrected in the books, but the show could change it up.

[hallam]

Legitimate point but as I said in the books as far as we know she's unaware of the resurrections that have occurred. Whichever one you choose to look at there is a problem. Not that there aren't a number of ways it can be overcome but its there. I'm just saying its a way he could go. It could be that Jon has a two-fold purpose in the story, first as red herring for Aegon if genuine which I admit is by no means a given and also to make sure the watch were too weak and fragmented to stand against the Others if the wall falls. Which I'm pretty sure it will otherwise we have a finale comprised of several hundred pages of people sitting on top of a wall looking down at some other people looking up at them from the ground with mean looks on their faces.

Aegon appears in book 5. Therefore he is a red herring. There was never any possibility he is going to survive. It isn't likely he is genuine either.

Jon has to be Targarean in any sensible plot arc so he can ride dragons. But what we are told about Lyanna and Jon makes it clear that she cannot be the mother. Jon vows to join the NW rather than create any more bastards. When he refuses being made legitimate he says he wants it more than almost anything else. Any reveal that changes his parentage without changing his legitimacy is pointless. Jon has to be legitimacy to have a claim to the throne as well. The Targareans could behave like they liked when they were the ruling house but not after Robert's Rebellion.

What we are told about Ned's devotion to duty and his involvement in Lyanna's death makes very plain that there is far more to it than unwed mother dies in childbirth.

The only reason R+L=J is the dominant theory is that a handful of people on this board have been posting 8,000 posts shouting down anyone pointing out the obvious flaws. One of the many problems with the Internet is that folk can behave like mean little bullies without consequences.

R+L=J is an obvious red herring just as Wyla and Ashara Dayne are. But the reveal on Jon's parentage has to explain all three of the obvious theories.

One clue which we are given is Rhaegar is obsessed by prophecy but not what the prophecy is except for the part about the dragon having three heads. If Rheagar believed that it might explain why Danny ends up with three dragon eggs, they would originally be collected by Rheagar. If the prophecy also said only the third would survive, he might have decided to make sure nobody knew he was alive. If Elia's bed rest and the tale about her being too weak to bear any more children was a cover story for the third pregnancy, there is time for Rhaegar and Elia to have a third son in secret before Elia goes to Kings Landing just before it is sacked.

That timing seems to work. Jon is born about the time Danny is conceived. All that is missing is a way to explain why Jon looks like a Stark. And that is something that can change.

We don't necessarily get the full reveal all at once. But the first sign that Jon's parentage has been concealed might well be that he changes appearance to become more Targarean looking. Remember Catelyn's story about Jon being a sickly child who cried a lot? That does not sound like the Prince who was Promised unless there was some other reason for the crying like some form of appearance changing spell.

[kimim]

If you used the show to figure out what happens to major characters in the first three volumes, you'd be fine. The last two novels are different than the first three, and the show's adaptation changes, too.Despite that, I think the show is keeping to basics as to who lives and who dies for major characters, so if Stannis or Jon die permanently in the show, odds are that's what would happen to them in the novels. I never believed he'd be resurrected by Mel, so her leaving with Stannis isn't worrying, for Jon. It's worrying for Shireen.

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

I never believed Melisandre would resurrect Jon Snow, so I am not surprised.

I'm so glad I'm not alone! :)

[COYStars]

Aegon appears in book 5. Therefore he is a red herring. There was never any possibility he is going to survive. It isn't likely he is genuine either.

Jon has to be Targarean in any sensible plot arc so he can ride dragons. But what we are told about Lyanna and Jon makes it clear that she cannot be the mother. Jon vows to join the NW rather than create any more bastards. When he refuses being made legitimate he says he wants it more than almost anything else. Any reveal that changes his parentage without changing his legitimacy is pointless. Jon has to be legitimacy to have a claim to the throne as well. The Targareans could behave like they liked when they were the ruling house but not after Robert's Rebellion.

What we are told about Ned's devotion to duty and his involvement in Lyanna's death makes very plain that there is far more to it than unwed mother dies in childbirth.

The only reason R+L=J is the dominant theory is that a handful of people on this board have been posting 8,000 posts shouting down anyone pointing out the obvious flaws. One of the many problems with the Internet is that folk can behave like mean little bullies without consequences.

R+L=J is an obvious red herring just as Wyla and Ashara Dayne are. But the reveal on Jon's parentage has to explain all three of the obvious theories.

One clue which we are given is Rhaegar is obsessed by prophecy but not what the prophecy is except for the part about the dragon having three heads. If Rheagar believed that it might explain why Danny ends up with three dragon eggs, they would originally be collected by Rheagar. If the prophecy also said only the third would survive, he might have decided to make sure nobody knew he was alive. If Elia's bed rest and the tale about her being too weak to bear any more children was a cover story for the third pregnancy, there is time for Rhaegar and Elia to have a third son in secret before Elia goes to Kings Landing just before it is sacked.

That timing seems to work. Jon is born about the time Danny is conceived. All that is missing is a way to explain why Jon looks like a Stark. And that is something that can change.

We don't necessarily get the full reveal all at once. But the first sign that Jon's parentage has been concealed might well be that he changes appearance to become more Targarean looking. Remember Catelyn's story about Jon being a sickly child who cried a lot? That does not sound like the Prince who was Promised unless there was some other reason for the crying like some form of appearance changing spell.

I'm not following the bits in red. Sadly these seem to be the foundations upon which the rest of the post is built.

[COYStars]

Jon will be spending quite a lot of time living i side of ghost in the next book... Probably the first half of TWOW or more... I personally do not think that he will EVER be reunited with his original body... When he retakes man form again, I think that he will have stolen Hodor from Bran...

I do hope not.

GRRM has enough on his plate closing out the various threads, without an additional tangent like this.

[Drogonthedread]

I never believed Melisandre would resurrect Jon Snow, so I am not surprised.

exactly ...

it still has to happen in the books for all we know jon may not even be dead only injured ...

people are taking the theories too seriously and as a fact when there are only three persons who knows what happens

[jugdesh258]

Jon will be spending quite a lot of time living i side of ghost in the next book... Probably the first half of TWOW or more... I personally do not think that he will EVER be reunited with his original body... When he retakes man form again, I think that he will have stolen Hodor from Bran...

We used to surmise that Jon might be resurrected into Stannis body to create new Azor ahai character. I guess this would show that Mel was totally wrong in joining with Stannis to begin with. Neither Stannis or Hodor would fly with D+D focus groups. They ain't gonna replace dreamy Kit harrington with frumpy old guy. The girls liked Robb. They elevated him on TV to main POV... he was on cover of TV Guide. Youtube reactions to Robbs death galore. Resurrection to Ugly guy aint gonna fly

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

We used to surmise that Jon might be resurrected into Stannis body to create new Azor ahai character.

Wait what? We did? That is genuine news for me, and I remember quite a few theories about Jon's survival/resurrection/or compatible.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I'm not following the bits in red. Sadly these seem to be the foundations upon which the rest of the post is built.

Look up in the books/general a thread titled... darn, can't recall from memory, and the search is presently off... anyway, something about Jon Snow being Prince Aegon, if you want to know more. (It's neither good nor well argued, though).