Catelyn's Murder

[chrisdaw]

Some people don't. At least Jaime's attempted murder of an innocent was to save a life or lives.

[Balerion the kitten]

Some people don't. At least Jaime's attempted murder of an innocent was to save a life or lives.

Oh I didn't mean all innocent people die. I was just saying that innocent people do. Jinglebell being one of them

[Grissom]

She had already gone mad by that point, that's why she did it.

[EastTymor]

We know the Freys and Roose Bolton committed horrible acts of murder when they killed Robb Stark and so many north men. But lets not forget Cat committed murder herself that night.

She murdered JingleBell who as far as we know didn't do anything wrong. He was just chilling at the wedding having a good time. I bet he was as surprised as anyone when so many people started dying. Cat took a blade and cut JingleBell's throat open, though he had done nothing wrong.

Why do people give Catelyn a pass for this act of murder?

If you think she did wrong, she was punished for it 5 seconds later. Which is more than we can say about most of the wrongs committed in Westeros.

[Minuteman]

Roslin? Roslin?! She is one of the main perpetrators!

A nice girl and somewhat under duress, yes, but a far cry from innocent.

I think all of the Rosby Freys are the "good" Freys. Roslin seemed to know what was going to happen but she also seemed very distraught by it. Olyvar and Perwin Frey weren't even at the RW because their loyalty to their house on this matter was in question. Benfrey was there but tried to take prisoner Dacey Mormount who broke a flagon of wine on him and was subsequently killed by another Frey. Benfrey "died of his wounds" at the RW which I suspect more that he protested the killing of so many (Robb alone had wronged them) and was put down by his own house for it.

[Dragon Seed]

She had already broken when she did that. Also she did what she said she'd do, she made a promise to Lord Walder and she followed through.

To bad her son couldn't honor his promise.

[LordQorgyle]

Had Robb kept his pants and none of it would have happened

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think all of the Rosby Freys are the "good" Freys. Roslin seemed to know what was going to happen but she also seemed very distraught by it. Olyvar and Perwin Frey weren't even at the RW because their loyalty to their house on this matter was in question. Benfrey was there but tried to take prisoner Dacey Mormount who broke a flagon of wine on him and was subsequently killed by another Frey. Benfrey "died of his wounds" at the RW which I suspect more that he protested the killing of so many (Robb alone had wronged them) and was put down by his own house for it.

So, being distraught excuses mass murder? Maybe somebody should pardon Septon Urtt for his raping and murdering of small boys? He was very distraught over it after all.

Mind you, I'm not disagreeing per se, but using that kind of argumentation creates injustice on a very large scale.

[Talleyrand]

She said she'd kill him if they didn't let Robb go, got to keep your word and all that

Yeah its too bad it had to literally be the ONLY Frey that had to be utterly and completely innocent of any wrong doing. I mean ANY other Frey would have been all good but it had to be the retarded uncle who shit himself?

Well there's Olyvar, Alesander and Perwyn but yeah she could have chosen a more karmically sound victim. There was at least a few half cut Frey's about who could have been an easy grab.

But then heat of the moment I'm not going to blame her for going for the closest and easiest one

[Queen of dragonstone]

One of the things that I struggle about with catelyn. This and Jon

[Minuteman]

So, being distraught excuses mass murder? Maybe somebody should pardon Septon Urtt for his raping and murdering of small boys? He was very distraught over it after all.

Mind you, I'm not disagreeing per se, but using that kind of argumentation creates injustice on a very large scale.

No, it doesn't excuse it but it does mitigate it quite a bit. How would Sansa have reacted if Robert ordered Ned to kill Theon, his ward, and he did so? If Ned told her to go get Theon and bring him on the pretext that he wanted to discuss marrying him to Sansa would she do it? I think she would have. She too would have been distraught but she would have done it. Loyalty is first to the house even over the king. Also, when you are a young woman raised to meekly obey everything your Lord Father tells you to do without question or hesitation then you do it, personal convictions aside. At least she recognizes the wrongness in what is being done. It may not save her in the end but I put her on the same moral plane as any high bred woman including Sansa, Catelyn, and Arya.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No, it doesn't excuse it but it does mitigate it quite a bit. How would Sansa have reacted if Robert ordered Ned to kill Theon, his ward, and he did so? If Ned told her to go get Theon and bring him on the pretext that he wanted to discuss marrying him to Sansa would she do it? I think she would have. She too would have been distraught but she would have done it. Loyalty is first to the house even over the king. Also, when you are a young woman raised to meekly obey everything your Lord Father tells you to do without question or hesitation then you do it, personal convictions aside. At least she recognizes the wrongness in what is being done. It may not save her in the end but I put her on the same moral plane as any high bred woman including Sansa, Catelyn, and Arya.

Yes, it should grant her a bit of mercy. A bit.

What I'm criticizing is the tendency to absolve her completely and declare her innocent.

[HexMachina]

Because she made no attempt to hide what it would be - revenge and retribution. So very few people mention it, in my experience.

And lets not forget that it was a result of one last, desperate attempt of Catelyn to save her child. Unfortunately for her, Walder Frey didn't care squat for his grandson, so the attempt failed.

[aryagonnakill#2]

We could wind up with a Green Apple Fossoway type situation, where one of the good Freys changes the name or banner a little bit and carries on.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Had Robb kept his pants and none of it would have happened

That's quite a bold statement to make, considering Walder Frey's stance regarding which side he's on, with every change of the wind. Perhaps not this way, but nothing? Nah, I would not expect so.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

We know the Freys and Roose Bolton committed horrible acts of murder when they killed Robb Stark and so many north men. But lets not forget Cat committed murder herself that night.

She murdered JingleBell who as far as we know didn't do anything wrong. He was just chilling at the wedding having a good time. I bet he was as surprised as anyone when so many people started dying. Cat took a blade and cut JingleBell's throat open, though he had done nothing wrong.

Why do people give Catelyn a pass for this act of murder?

It's called deterrence. It's not credible unless you are willing to carry through on your threat. She maintained her threat credibility till the very end. Case in point is the taking of children as hostages. The hostages are usually innocent, but the threat till kill them usually good enough to keep people like Balon Greyjoy in line. But only if the threat is credible.

It's not about justice, it's about minimizing war. The problem was that the hostage Catelyn took was absolutely useless. Nevertheless, if you promise to kill someone, even an innocent, you better go through on it unless you want to lose all credibility and become easy pickings.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

It's called deterrence. It's not credible unless you are willing to carry through on your threat. She maintained her threat credibility till the very end. Case in point is the taking of children as hostages. The hostages are usually innocent, but the threat till kill them usually good enough to keep people like Balon Greyjoy in line. But only if the threat is credible.

It's not about justice, it's about minimizing war. The problem was that the hostage Catelyn took was absolutely useless. Nevertheless, if you promise to kill someone, even an innocent, you better go through on it unless you want to lose all credibility and become easy pickings.

It's too bad that she was dead 2 seconds later kind of making her credibility a moot point until something completely unforeseeable happens a couple of days later. Better to kill an innocent, seemingly harmless person to make sure people believe your threats for the last couple of seconds of your life.

[SeanF]

It's too bad that she was dead 2 seconds later kind of making her credibility a moot point until something completely unforeseeable happens a couple of days later. Better to kill an innocent, seemingly harmless person to make sure people believe your threats for the last couple of seconds of your life.

She was completely broken. She had had one horror after another inflicted on her.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I can't and don't give a pass to it. What I do see is a woman -- and I think we could all agree this murder of Jinglebell is a crime of passion -- try to use whatever leverage she could to prevent her son's murder. It didn't work and she was broken at that point, as many others have pointed out.

And even if I did give it a pass, she was already judged and executed for the crime. I don't have to give it a pass. It's already been passed by. Lord Walder does have the right of pit and gallows on his land, after all.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

It's too bad that she was dead 2 seconds later kind of making her credibility a moot point until something completely unforeseeable happens a couple of days later. Better to kill an innocent, seemingly harmless person to make sure people believe your threats for the last couple of seconds of your life.

I would say that she takes the credibility issue very seriously, since she literally rose from the dead to fulfill the "or else" clause.