Rant and Rave without Repercussion [Book Spoilers]

[JonCon's Red Beard]

*Dany uses wheel speech. It's super effective!*

And I just rewatched the scene. Tyrion really does say "Tha leaves the Tyrells", which means Martells are really excluded. And Arryns and Tullys, and Greyjoys.

Ah... those times when showWesteros had Seven Kingdoms...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

LOL, maybe that's the reason for Euron's appearance next season:

E: CHOOSE ME KING AND WE WILL BE INCLUDED IN THE IMP'S NEXT SPEECH!

All: EURON! EURON! EURON! EURON!

Yarasha: But how we even know what he has said?? wait... when did my father die???

[Lord Damian]

OMG, imagine a conversation between Obara and Dany.

"I'm Daenerys Storborn of House Targaryen, of the blood of old Valyria, rightful heir to the Iron Throne, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, the Rhoynar, and the First Men. I am the Mother of Dragons, the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, and Breaker of Chains"

"I'm Obara Sand. When I was a little girl, my father Oberyn Martell made me choose..."

That would be a beautiful vision indeed, especially if Obara has a spear in her hand.

That's true.

Dany, like Aegon in the books, will need a marriage alliance. which houses have available young men or not so young men to marry, Martells - Trystane, Arryn - SweetRobin - HAHAHHA, Stark - Bran, Rickon, not gonna happen but - Jon?, Lannister - Tyrion - yeah, all you Sansa/Tyrion lovers, pick a new love target for Lord Farquad/Tyrion, Greyjoys maybe.

Bottom line is Dany would need an alliance for a foothold and it would not take much to get one. The problem is if she is smart enought to take one. Book readers may know the answer to that Question.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Not to start a debate about it, but Dany doesn't need marriage alliances in Westeros as much as they need to convince her to not fry them all.

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

OMG, imagine a conversation between Obara and Dany.

"I'm Daenerys Storborn of House Targaryen, of the blood of old Valyria, rightful heir to the Iron Throne, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, the Rhoynar, and the First Men. I am the Mother of Dragons, the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, and Breaker of Chains"

"I'm Obara Sand. When I was a little girl, my father Oberyn Martell made me choose..."

Hahahah oh god! Let's hope that never creatively makes sense....

[Lord Damian]

Not to start a debate about it, but Dany doesn't need marriage alliances in Westeros as much as they need to convince her to not fry them all.

Well said. Dany has the ultimate weapons and if and when she can fly them and control them (Tyrion knows about dragons through his extensive reading habbits) she can do more good or bad depending on whatever she gets the urge to do. Coin flip time.

[Troy Reynolds]

I feel a bit sad that GoT is not more a show people can seriously watch. It's not like we never made jokes about it, but the show is now a joke. Their flaws are what the show is been discussed now, not the content or the storytelling. And mostly magazines -for what I've seen in that EW article and similar- have to come out to defend it because the show can't defend itself.

...but then, Peru has just scored 1 against Mexico (Cup America practices) and my sorrow is gone. B)

I know a lot of thoughtful, intelligent people that watch this show who find it to be great. For some reason they just don't see the flaws, or if they do see them maybe they just don't think they matter because this isn't a show where such things do matter. When I watched the Hardhome battle all I could think was that I was watching a Michael Bay movie. Great effects, fast action but just absurd at the heart of it. Inconsistent in its own logic and rules from one moment to the next. Every possible movie fight cliché ramped up for maximum effect. I enjoy a Michael Bay movie when I'm watching a Michael Bay movie because big, dumb and loud is what I expect, what I'm tuning in for. I'm not looking for good plots or sound character movement or internal logic, I'm looking for forty foot robots and car chases on the MacArthur Causeway. Is that what these people tune in for? Is this the expectation that allows them to brush aside the obvious flaws and plot holes so immense they could swallow galaxies? A few snarky, quotable lines and some exciting fight scenes? Is this to be the popular impression of what ASOIAF is, the series we all rave about to the point the casual GoT fan must think us consumers of the worst possible pulp?

Maybe I'm jaded because, like many here I suspect, I just expected more. I was treated to more. I remember the first season. It was what brought me to ASOIAF and I couldn't believe what a good show but what a good adaptation it was after I had finished AGoT. I just find it such a shame that a very intelligently written series of books could devolve into something like this, and I can't believe that these same intelligent people I know that watch this show wouldn't be just as awed by an adaptation that allowed the real force, the real depth of the books to be brought out. They watched Mad Men. They had watched the Sopranos. They had watched Breaking Bad. No where have I said a word for word faithful adaptation, but a good adaptation, where the viewer, like the reader before, is challenged by the complexity, much like we've all seen from the true excellence in television that we have had in the past decade. Perhaps it never draws the audience it does today, perhaps it never is gifted the budget it has, but does that really matter. It's finest moment was when it was poorer and smaller. Maybe that isn't such a bad thing.

[Private Lemoncake]

I don't mind that Tyrion and Dany met.

I mind greatly that it really sucked.

[Troy Reynolds]

I don't mind that Tyrion and Dany met.

I mind greatly that it really sucked.

Well said.

[Cas Stark]

I'm totally starting a campaign for a Keisha Castle Hughs and Emelia scene for next season. That has to happen. The potential for such a meeting is endless.

[queenmarg]

I think Emilia's acting is subpar (only liked her season 1) and it really showed in this episode where she had to act with Dinklage.

Also Ser Barristan got that untimely death so that Tyrion could be her sole advisor on Westerosi matters? How unfortunate...

[Dr. Qyburn]

*Dany uses wheel speech. It's super effective!*

And I just rewatched the scene. Tyrion really does say "Tha leaves the Tyrells", which means Martells are really excluded. And Arryns and Tullys, and Greyjoys.

Well, lets see:

Has there been more than Arryn in Kingslanding? No.

Has there been more than one Martell in Kingslanding? No.

Has there been more than one Tully in Kingslanding?

A Greyjoy?

The rules are clear. Only those houses that have had more than one member stay in show!Kingslanding are the only great houses.

You are not a great house until you've had at least two members wander around the gardens of betrayal.

[Takyon]

I know that the comments in this thread are supposed to go without repercussion, so I'll ask this in the nicest way possible:

What was so awful about Dany and Tyrion's dialogue?

Yes, it was on the fanfic-y side of things. Yes, Clarke's not necessarily Meryl Streep. And yes, the "break the wheel" speech is trailer-bait that makes little to no sense but people are acting like all conversations on this show should be substantial or - as Elio and Linda implied - that they should carry dramatic weight. On that note, I would hate to know that Elio and Linda would think of My Dinner With Andre: a movie with no major conflicts and a movie that relies entirely on the intrigue of what two characters think and discuss over a dinner table. What keeps the audience invested is not the drama but the wit of their speech and what the film's central characters reveal about themselves and their experiences.

In a similar manner, Dany and Tyrion's exchanges worked because as they were introducing themselves, they were reminding viewers of their personal goals (which can be easily forgotten amidst the busy plotting of the season thus far) while also contrasting their perspectives on the game of thrones: while Tyrion preaches safe pragmatism, Dany touts risky heroism. Despite whatever contrivances that got these two characters together in a room, I found their dialogue to be perfectly suitable and well executed; just calling the conversations "stupid" or "awful" barely helps me look at the episode in a different light.

[Cas Stark]

I know that the comments in this thread are supposed to go without repercussion, so I'll ask this in the nicest way possible:

What was so awful about Dany and Tyrion's dialogue?

Yes, it was on the fanfic-y side of things. Yes, Clarke's not necessarily Meryl Streep. And yes, the "break the wheel" speech is trailer-bait that makes little to no sense but people are acting like all conversations on this show should be substantial or - as Elio and Linda implied - that they should carry dramatic weight. On that note, I would hate to know that Elio and Linda would think of My Dinner With Andre: a movie with no major conflicts and a movie that relies entirely on the intrigue of what two characters think and discuss over a dinner table. What keeps the audience invested is not the drama but the wit of their speech and what the film's central characters reveal about themselves and their experiences.

In a similar manner, Dany and Tyrion's exchanges worked because as they were introducing themselves, they were reminding viewers of their personal goals (which can be easily forgotten amidst the busy plotting of the season thus far) while also contrasting their perspectives on the game of thrones: while Tyrion preaches safe pragmatism, Dany touts risky heroism. Despite whatever contrivances that got these two characters together in a room, I found their dialogue to be perfectly suitable and well executed; just calling the conversations "stupid" or "awful" barely helps me look at the episode in a different light.

It wasn't awful or stupid. It was underwhelming. Considering the OMG Dany and Tyrion meet you would expect great dialogue, sparkling wit, something memorable. But, the showrunners can't actually write that kind of dialogue, the show only has great dialogue when it comes from the books.

Break the wheel was simply out of place in the conversation and then it ends w/no explanation. Trailer bait is exactly what it was.

It was a good episode for this season. People who think it was the best EVER of all the seasons, I can't understand that in the same way I can't understand people who say AFFC was their favorite book, I don't get it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I agree.

I liked the 'break the wheel' speech from the trailers. It did sound like a badass boast. Something like 'I know who wronged my family, who my enemies are. I'm coming for them'. It was like a more serious list of Arya's, or the one of the Bride's.

But considering the context, it sounded empty. Because first, Dany has still no future plans for returning to Westeros. She's all "I will do this and that". In the books, she puts Westeros aside for a reason. She knows she's not remotely close. Many of Dany's detractors say she can't make up her mind about one single thing, but she has very much decided that Meereen is her priority. In the show, her 'wheel' speech makes her sound like her head is in Westeros while Meereen is not getting any better. It shows Meereen exactly as those who misread her chapters think Meereen is: a place she barely cares about and is there for her to spend some time until is her time to return.

Also, Tyrion's attitude was very patronising. Dany might be a child and we might know about her flaws and mistakes but people -at least not the idiots- don't treat her like she is not important. Even her enemies see her as the one Dragon Queen. The way Tyrion was introduced to the scene made Dany look bad and Tyrion look good in comparison. It should have been a more levelled interaction, specially because by the time they finally meet in books, they both will have changed. I won't spoil tWoW but Tyrion is in for some very good development while Dany will probably be crowned as the Stallion.

Imagine this. Imagine the show had decided that, as Dany and Jon likely will meet each other at the end of the books, then it was a better decision to have them reunited during the first or second season. By then, Dany is still just a wandering girl with three small lizards and Jon is some virgin git that keeps crying because he's a bastard and life is hard. They won't meet like that in the books, they will meet each other as equals after he has commanded a war and she has conquered three cities. It's the same. It was not the time for Dany and Tyrion to meet. They have yet nothing to add to such reunion because they aren't yet fully developed. That's why it feels so underwhelming.

[Good Guy Garlan]

My main problem with that scene wasn't so much the dialogue as the acting. Both Clarke and Dinklage looked like with zero energy, they were just dead and had zero chemistry. I don't know what I expected, but in the books Tyrion and Dany are two of the most impulsive characters so I imagined their encounter to be more explosive, more dynamic, I don't know, Tyrion being the sarcastic ass he is and Dany threatening to go all fire and blood on him.

Instead we got two old ladies peacefully reminiscing over crackers and tea.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Instead we got two old ladies peacefully reminiscing over crackers and tea.

Their scene actually reminded me of the episode of Angel in which he's free from his curse and he goes to Buffy. Someone asks "what will they do?" and Cordelia says "drinking tea and eat cookies, obviously!". And they are indeed, doing that in the next scene :lol: It was the same awkward tension.

[Modesty Lannister]

I know that the comments in this thread are supposed to go without repercussion, so I'll ask this in the nicest way possible:

What was so awful about Dany and Tyrion's dialogue?

Yes, it was on the fanfic-y side of things. Yes, Clarke's not necessarily Meryl Streep. And yes, the "break the wheel" speech is trailer-bait that makes little to no sense but people are acting like all conversations on this show should be substantial or - as Elio and Linda implied - that they should carry dramatic weight. On that note, I would hate to know that Elio and Linda would think of My Dinner With Andre: a movie with no major conflicts and a movie that relies entirely on the intrigue of what two characters think and discuss over a dinner table. What keeps the audience invested is not the drama but the wit of their speech and what the film's central characters reveal about themselves and their experiences.

In a similar manner, Dany and Tyrion's exchanges worked because as they were introducing themselves, they were reminding viewers of their personal goals (which can be easily forgotten amidst the busy plotting of the season thus far) while also contrasting their perspectives on the game of thrones: while Tyrion preaches safe pragmatism, Dany touts risky heroism. Despite whatever contrivances that got these two characters together in a room, I found their dialogue to be perfectly suitable and well executed; just calling the conversations "stupid" or "awful" barely helps me look at the episode in a different light.

Imagine King Robert in season one reintroducing himself as a character. How stupid would that be? In the scene we talk about the two characters were reminding the audience of who they are. The audience knows who they are. Hence, the whole scene is redundant. What that scene might have entailed is some new information (for the audience) and that is that "two terrible fathers" were bffs once upon a time, forcing the audience to rethink the dynamics of the new forged relationship - NewTywin/NewAerys (similarities and differences), as well as a possible foreshadowing of the end of that dynamics (Tyrion betrays Daenerys?).

Instead, we learn nothing new. Our mind is never challenged (and I am now talking strictly about the show without comparing it with the vastly superior source material). Every scene has to have a purpose in the narrative. What is the purpose of 90% of the scenes we are seeing? That is the question. Mostly the purpose is shock and awe. Or boobs. Or some violent sex. Or some boring sex. Or Olly Chekhov. It is beyond lazy writing. It is so bad, any criticism is not sufficient to cover it. And it presupposes that the audience is stupid. The same audience could comprehend Twin Peaks 20 years ago. Or Breaking Bad recently. So, is that audience really dumb? I would not think so.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The same audience could comprehend Twin Peaks 20 years ago. Or Breaking Bad recently. So, is that audience really dumb? I would not think so.

And those who don't understand, discuss, e.g. Lost, Heroes, Inception, etc, etc. :dunno:

[Neddy's Girl]

Guys, I'm really sorry if I missed this, but are we ranting about this article yet?

"...but likewise there are ways in which the show has made its female characters arguably more likeable (such as Sansas character in general), or gave them empowering new sequences (such as Brienne fighting The Hound)."

Yeah, pretty peeved about that quote.

It was interesting he mentioned science fiction, I'm not a big lover of the genre, but I always felt new Battlestar Galactica was pretty egalitarian, even down to 4 of the 7 top billed cast being female. But we are certainly not in a egalitarian society now.

And when he talks about Disney-Middle Ages, does anyone else think of Ken Follett, Pillars of the Earth? ASOIAF is fantasy with more historical accuracy than this book he apparently spent 10 years researching. (Did Ding and Dong learn female characterisation from him?)

Anyway, hate it when a quote from the author is juxtaposed with clap-trap in an attempt to give it credence.