Rant and Rave without Repercussion [Book Spoilers]

[voodooqueen126]

:wideeyed:

I just think it's because of their uncanny similarities:

• They’re not as smart as they think they are
• They think that they’re making these grand progressive decisions when really it’s reflective of their underlying misogyny (it’s internalized in the case of Cersei)
• They surround themselves with yes-men (hayo Alex Graves) and tell people like Kevan Lannister to fuck-off
• They think they always know best

And of course:

Cersei could not help but smile. Even her lord father could have done no better. At a stroke, she had rid King’s Landing of the plague of sparrows, secured Tommen’s blessing, and lessened the crown’s debt by close to a million dragons. Her heart was soaring as she allowed the High Septon to escort her back to the Hall of Lamps.

Let’s just fix this slightly…

Benioff and Weiss could not help but smile. Even George R.R. Martin could have done no better. At a stroke, they had rid themselves of the need to establish Arianne Martell, secured audience buy-in to Dorne through Ellaria, and improved upon Jaime Lannister’s Riverlands arc by giving him real action. Their hearts were soaring as they placed the casting call for three Sand Snakes.

Very funny and true.

but I mean in terms of self perception... generally people are uncomfortable with the bad parts of their personality. and it seems that the Show Runners, who are generally Pro-Lannister, did so because they bought into the notion that honour will get you killed, and that they side with the powerful and successful (hence the whitewashing of Tywin)... because confronting the fact that we are weak makes people uncomfortable.

Someone said that on this thread and I can't find it but it was a great observation of human nature.

So whilst I can see why say Weiss loves Tyrion (since he is definitely short and I presume he sees himself as a witty funny intelligent guy) but I am curious as to why the show runners love Theon and Cersei (since they evince traits that people are ashamed of)

[HexMachina]

Ha! Loving the Batfinger stuff :lol:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I imagined this scene to be memorable. Like you know, those memorable dialogues from BB, MM, Sopranos which you remember years after the show. This was so forgettable that you actually forget it ever happened by the time "Walking dead" crossed-over with Game of Thrones.

I've said it before. Despite the obvious oneliners Emilia has been given, I can't remember one single quote of hers that portrays her as a human being. The exception would be Season 1, and her relationship with Drogo (like, the scene when she's braiding his hair, for instance). The rest, is basically she telling "stuff".

(mmm... could be her talking with Missandei about the pillars and stones, but... she's also braiding her hair, right? She's only caring when she's being a styler, lol)

[voodooqueen126]

I've said it before. Despite the obvious oneliners Emilia has been given, I can't remember one single quote of hers that portrays her as a human being. The exception would be Season 1, and her relationship with Drogo (like, the scene when she's braiding his hair, for instance). The rest, is basically she telling "stuff".

(mmm... could be her talking with Missandei about the pillars and stones, but... she's also braiding her hair, right? She's only caring when she's being a styler, lol)

Its interesting, but the two female characters the show runners love (Arya and Daenerys) are the least normal* and what was human in them in the books was erased.

And they like Cersei, which remains a mystery to me.

*except Melisandre and Selyse and Lysa

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I've said it before. Despite the obvious oneliners Emilia has been given, I can't remember one single quote of hers that portrays her as a human being. The exception would be Season 1, and her relationship with Drogo (like, the scene when she's braiding his hair, for instance). The rest, is basically she telling "stuff".

(mmm... could be her talking with Missandei about the pillars and stones, but... she's also braiding her hair, right? She's only caring when she's being a styler, lol)

The sad part is that George, although Dany's a Queen as well in the books, is able to portray her as more than that. She's almost real for a character that's sixteen, in possession of dragons and cities. Dany's behavior is consistent with her own characteristics, and she feels as she's human. She has doubts and desires that are both childish and ambitious, which, in my opinion makes her a rounded character. She struggles to do what's right. She wants Daario to kidnap her as Rhaegar once did to Lyanna.

Show!Dany's mode is Queen 24/7. I can recall only really "I'm not a politician, I'm a Queen." because it was so bad, you have to laugh at it.

[Balerion06]

I've been following this thread for ages, since its first iteration I think. You're all awesome, and I think I'd have lost my mind if I thought I was the only one who thought this show had gone to the dogs this season.

So thank you, all of you. For reminding me that I'm sane.

[OldGimletEye]

Show!Dany's mode is Queen 24/7. I can recall only really "I'm not a politician, I'm a Queen." because it was so bad, you have to laugh at it.

Just another dumb piece of writing by D & D. Rather than even trying to explore the realities of exercising power, in a somewhat sophisticated manner, Beavis & Butthead, oops, I meant D & D just went for a dumb one liner meant to be a fist pumper. There is nothing inherently wrong with a queen, even an idealistic one, being a fantastic politician.

[LongRider]

Just another dumb piece of writing by D & D. Rather than even trying to explore the realities of exercising power, in a somewhat sophisticated manner, Beavis & Butthead, oops, I meant D & D just went for a dumb one liner meant to be a fist pumper. There is nothing inherently wrong with a queen, even an idealistic one, being a fantastic politician.

True! And this is 'Game of Thrones' which means politics, but also, how the politicians react to their situations and to each other. GRRM also added how the results of those decisions and actions affect the smallfolk. But this show has devolved from those portrayals shown in the first season.

edt:

"I'm a queen, not a politician" reminds me of USA presidential candidates who like say basically the same thing. LOL! Could the D's perhaps have bought into that rhetoric and decided it would sound good coming from Dany's mouth? Sounds just as stupid when she says it as any real politician saying basically the same.

[Annara Snow]

dp

[Annara Snow]

Just another dumb piece of writing by D & D. Rather than even trying to explore the realities of exercising power, in a somewhat sophisticated manner, Beavis & Butthead, oops, I meant D & D just went for a dumb one liner meant to be a fist pumper. There is nothing inherently wrong with a queen, even an idealistic one, being a fantastic politician.

In fact, "I'm a queen, not a politician" is another completely absurd thing they had Dany say. It's even worse than "All men must die, but we are not men". A ruling monarch is a politician by definition, unless it's the kind of system where they are a monarch just in name, a figurehead with no real political power, do not rule and have no real influence on the country's policies, as in today's UK.

The only way her statement would make some sense would be if she were this kind of a figurehead, or a queen consort who's only interested in having a nice life and popping out children but who's not influencing her husband's policies at all (which is not even true of many queen consorts). For a ruling queen with actual power, who's making decisions about her subjects and the state she is ruling... it is an absolutely illogical statement.

Most likely, D&D don't even know what the word "politician" means, and never gave it a thought beyond "wow, this one-liner sounds cool!"

[Cas Stark]

In fact, "I'm a queen, not a politician" is another completely absurd thing they had Dany say. It's even worse than "All men must die, but we are not men". A ruling monarch is a politician by definition, unless it's the kind of system where they are a monarch just in name, a figurehead with no real political power, do not rule and have no real influence on the country's policies, as in today's UK.

The only way her statement would make some sense would be if she were this kind of a figurehead, or a queen consort who's only interested in having a nice life and popping out children but who's not influencing her husband's policies at all (which is not even true of many queen consorts). For a ruling queen with actual power, who's making decisions about her subjects and the state she is ruling... it is an absolutely illogical statement.

Most likely, D&D don't even know what the word "politician" means, and never gave it a thought beyond "wow, this one-liner sounds cool!"

Much worse, that second line was lame and so clearly meant for the audience, I'm a queen not a politician is like announcing "Hello, nice to meet you, in case you were wondering, I'm extremely stupid". That line was awful, especially having come from people who are supposed to LIKE her character. I don't particularly like her anymore, but, geeze, never has she been so fucking stupid she thinks she's above negotiating with somebody and can waive her arms around I'm the queen make it so.

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

To rant a bit more about the Dany's wheel speech/ Tyrion-Dany scenes - It wasn't that the entire conversation was awful or stupid, but it was very underwhelming and quite illogical. Why did Dany just decide to trust Tyrion and take him into her confidence! Because he gave her advice about Ser Jorah? I didn't buy that opening conversation or the jump to where Dany and Tyrion are suddenly having tea without a single guard around.

And then the conversation itself, as others have pointed out. Doesn't tell us anything new, it's not dynamic. I personally think every conversation should serve a purpose - and I don't honk this one did outside of putting Dany and Tyrion together for those who want to see them together. But the actual conversation told us nothing new, and also didn't make logical sense. We've already complained about how Tyrion left out all of the great houses that could've been of any use to Dany.

But I didn't think any of that was awful or stupid - contrived and boring though, yes.

What I did think was stupid was the break the wheel speech. The speech itself looked good in trailers, so I'm not going to say that it's a bad speech in and of itself. But it didn't fit organically where they placed it, and it came out of left field for Dany's character. I'm sorry but I'm not someone who thinks it's okay, cause they'll explain what she means later and they'll show her motivations later. I should have already seen the motivation, I should have seen or heard something that even hinted that she was thinking about absolutism (which is what everyone keeps telling me the speech was about) - how did she get from marrying a nobleman to keep peace, to deciding that she'll be able to conquer an entire continent without the nobility?

Aaaaand I'm done. Lol sorry for how long that ended up being.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

In fact, "I'm a queen, not a politician" is another completely absurd thing they had Dany say. It's even worse than "All men must die, but we are not men". A ruling monarch is a politician by definition, unless it's the kind of system where they are a monarch just in name, a figurehead with no real political power, do not rule and have no real influence on the country's policies, as in today's UK.

The only way her statement would make some sense would be if she were this kind of a figurehead, or a queen consort who's only interested in having a nice life and popping out children but who's not influencing her husband's policies at all (which is not even true of many queen consorts). For a ruling queen with actual power, who's making decisions about her subjects and the state she is ruling... it is an absolutely illogical statement.

Most likely, D&D don't even know what the word "politician" means, and never gave it a thought beyond "wow, this one-liner sounds cool!"

Not even that. Remember the criticism the Queen and the crown had to endure after Diana's death because they took too long to respond? Even though it wasn't related to the government issues, it was politics. Politics also refers (although not exclusively) to the relationship of certain powers and the people.

[Annara Snow]

Its interesting, but the two female characters the show runners love (Arya and Daenerys) are the least normal* and what was human in them in the books was erased.

And they like Cersei, which remains a mystery to me.

*except Melisandre and Selyse and Lysa

I don't believe that they actually love Arya or Dany, I think they just see them as characters that are easy to use to pull the mainstream audience, since they can easily be made into a cliche "cool character" - spunky tomboy/hot queen (with dragons!!!). From the way they write Dany, it doesn't seem like they even like her. And they don't seem to get Arya at all, either, she's just portrayed as the Cool Spunky Tomboy who's Not Like Other Girls.

The love for Cersei is a mystery to me. If they actually liked Cersei in the books, why change her character so much? Or maybe they just love their fanon version of Cersei they imagined while reading AGOT, even though they already had problems with things like her aborting Robert's baby and thought she should be more "likable" (I have no idea why Cersei being in love with King Bob or being ready to have his child would make her more likable, but whatever).

They both say they love Theon because he reminds them of their clueless 20-something selves. This may be the most honest thing they ever said. They really do seem just as clueless, arrogant and incompetent as he was.

[Cas Stark]

I don't believe that they actually love Arya or Dany, I think they just see them as characters that are easy to use to pull the mainstream audience, since they can easily be made into a cliche "cool character" - spunky tomboy/hot queen (with dragons!!!). From the way they write Dany, it doesn't seem like they even like her.

The love for Cersei is a mystery to me. If they actually liked Cersei in the books, why change her character so much? Or maybe they just love their fanon version of Cersei they imagined while reading AGOT, even though they already had problems with things like her aborting Robert's baby and thought she should be more "likable" (I have no idea why Cersei being in love with King Bob or being ready to have his child would make her more likable, but whatever).

They both say they love Theon because he reminds them of their clueless 20-something selves. This may be the most honest thing they ever said. They really do seem just as clueless, arrogant and incompetent as he was.

LMAO. Did they say that? I guess that explains why they took the books and are slowing burning them down in the show then.

[Annara Snow]

True! And this is 'Game of Thrones' which means politics, but also, how the politicians react to their situations and to each other. GRRM also added how the results of those decisions and actions affect the smallfolk. But this show has devolved from those portrayals shown in the first season.

edt:

"I'm a queen, not a politician" reminds me of USA presidential candidates who like say basically the same thing. LOL! Could the D's perhaps have bought into that rhetoric and decided it would sound good coming from Dany's mouth? Sounds just as stupid when she says it as any real politician saying basically the same.

LOL They actually say that they are not politicians?! That's like someone asking you to hire him to fix the plumbing in your house while announcing: "But remember, I'm not a plumber! So hire me because of that!"

[OldGimletEye]

LOL They actually say that they are not politicians?! That's like someone asking you to hire him to fix the plumbing in your house while announcing: "But remember, I'm not a plumber! So hire me because of that!"

Earlier I made a reference to LBJ, to illustrate the stupidity of the "I'm not a politician" bullshit. LBJ was no saint by any stretch of the imagination, but he got several pieces of controversial legislation through, which I would argue has had a positive impact on American life, by being....being....a fantastic politician.

I wouldn't mind seeing Dany get drunker then shit and then corner some Westerosi lord and say, "Now I am gonna need your help here with this thing I wanna get done for the small folk. You owe me a few favors you know."

[Annara Snow]

LMAO. Did they say that? I guess that explains why they took the books and are slowing burning them down in the show then.

They also think that characters are interchangeable and can easily be swapped, and they like to kill them off or (character-)assassinate them just because they think it would make them look more badass.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

They both say they love Theon because he reminds them of their clueless 20-something selves. This may be the most honest thing they ever said. They really do seem just as clueless, arrogant and incompetent as he was.

That's not something bad per se. Literature is, after all, a way for the writer or the audience to see themselves and their actions in characters. We could take Theon's actions literary or literally. Literary, they're an arrogant young man's mistakes after he thought he could handle a situation he was completely unprepared to do. That's what being a young person is. Theon was, after all, 19 or 20. Middle ages or not, that's very young. What's D&D's excuse? :lol:

The problem is that they seem to keep seeing the whole ASOIAF world through Theon's glasses. "Look! a penis!". "Look! a boob!".

Maybe this is their "Reek" season. Maybe next time they will do the job right and will rise harder and stronger.

[ArabellaVidal]

Just for... the memories. And for educational purposes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSw7X0i5YfQ.

Jeez... everything in the scene is PERFECT. From the two beautiful people there to the sound of the water. Also, props to the fact Viserys is not actually talking about real dragons there.

See? This show knew how to do subtlety. What happened? Did they lose a bet?

Thank you for that. It was really good.

It makes me wonder how they're going to ruin the story of the ToJ. Howland Reed and Baelish in a brothel?