Khorkalba Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Feast and Dance were a complete mess. Much worse than Season 5 in comparison to Books 1-3. If booksnobs applied the same level of criticism to the books that they do to the show, they'd have to admit that GRRM lost the plot, spun his tires, and produced two awful books that very few people like. The show has rescued this series from a death spiral of Martin's creation. D&D have made George enormously rich, brought him much more fame and acclaim than he would have garnered with just the books, expanded his fan base by a significant factor, and saved the series from the awful mess that AFFC and ADWD was.It's completely ridiculous that booksnobs blame D&D for cobbling together something coherent and watchable from the crap that George gave them in the last two books. Hopefully from here on out, they'll fly free of his nonsense and race to a satisfying conclusion, because Lord knows that is the *only* way we ever get to see a satisfying conclusion.The fans here are a disgrace to themselves, and to everyone involved, and should be ashamed of themselves.Speak for yourself. AFFC is by far the best book in the series in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Quork Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I have seen so many posts with people claiming that AFFC and ADWD are terrible books and D & D had to do something because those books were so horrible that they couldn't bring them to the screen. I have been unable to relate to this point of view because I loved the books and I love them even more on re-reads. Because of these claims that the books are universally loathed, I went to Good Reads to see what the ratings for each book were. Here are the stats from Good Reads: AGOT: 88% rated it 4 or 5, 97% rated it 3 or above, 971,621 ratings ACOK: 88% rated it 4 or 5, 99% rated it 3 or above, 441,591 ratings ASOS: 91% rated it 4 or 5, 99% rated it 3 or above, 383,352 ratings AFFC: 73% rated it 4 or 5, 95% rated it 3 or above, 344,833 ratings ADWD: 82% rated it 4 or 5, 97% rated it 3 or above, 292,713 ratings So, there was a drop in 4 or 5 ratings for those two books, but even for AFFC 95% of the people liked the book. I think it is time to challenge the idea being spread that they were terrible books. The truth is that a small percentage of people liked those two books less than the others and have been very vocal about their displeasure. Whether you like or dislike what D & D have done with the material they had, don't try to sell it that they had shitty material to work from. I'll admit my first read of AFfC was hampered by the change of style and viewpoint, but I loved ADwD immediately on first read. Second read, I did the Boiled Leather combined re-read and that made a real difference to me - I loved it all that way. The show, however, has replaced the carefully woven narrative with sheer nonsense of its own, like replacing the Riverlands with Jaime and Bronn's bromance in Dorne (featuring the Bland Snakes), and Brienne watching for a candle. How can anyone class these as 'improvements'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet199 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 It was either that or they got cut like Bran. Neither Jaime or Brienne actually achieve anything during their arcs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Quork Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 It was either that or they got cut like Bran. Neither Jaime or Brienne actually achieve anything during their arcs. Do you mean in the books or in the show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Speak for yourself. AFFC is by far the best book in the series in my opinion. there truly is no accounting for taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Look, as a book purist first and foremost, I fully understand that some people like the show better than the books. It has more viewers than George will ever have readers. That said, the book purists here do apply the same criticism to the books that they have to the show. Look around now and read the old threads also and you'll see that plenty of people tore apart both Feast and Dance -- the earlier books as well, in some cases. However, you'll also find plenty of people that loved both Feast and Dance, though the fact that both books are rated as highly as they are seems to say that there were many more of those that loved them than despised them. And yes, they do tear apart the show as well. However, in many cases this is for very different reasons than those in the books. Season 5, for instance, is filled with poor adaptation choices that are either ridiculous or outright illogical. Take Ramsay's twenty good men wreaking havoc on a camp of thousands, the excuse being that they know the north better; inconsistent characterization, Dany immediately comes to mind here; or Jon and the group of Wildlings showing up on the opposite side of the Wall from Hardhome; not to mention the entire Dorne plot line is a farce. There's no shame in admitting these things, unless you're somehow shamed by the fact that the show can do wrong, in which case you could easily replace a few words in your post and everything you said about book purists would apply to yourself. you have a good point- it should be possible to admit that the show has flaws. Clearly its easy to get defensive hackles up though when faced with the rageathons in these parts. the people who hate the show most turn out time and again to be the ones who loved books 4 and 5 the most, and also those who dislike the expanded role of the White Walkers in the show so far the most. In other words, their opinion is just way off beam of most fans that they might as well be consuming a totally different series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Do you even realize why we're upset? I understand that they may show things that are not in the books, but that's part of the fun: we don't know if we are being spoiled with TWoW material or if they're just adding stuff that are not in the books. Like Sansa going to Winterfell: is that a show-only story or will it happen in TWoW? No one knows. If they had shown Shireen being sacrificed without commenting on the scene, no one would know if we are seeing TWoW material or if this is something they did for the show only. But Benioff, being the little coward that he is, had to come out and say that Shireen's sacrifice happens in TWoW so that people blame George, not him. By doing that he pretty much tells us what will happen in TWoW instead of letting us speculate. yes becuase people like you would be going even more psycho at them if they hadn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Mithras posted this today in General / Reconciling Northern Myths: Last Hero is Night's King. They have started to discuss it there. I just wanted to make sure everyone saw this.***************Interesting new stuff from George:http://grrm.livejournal.com/428790.html?thread=21724918#t21724918"As for the Night's King (the form I prefer), in the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder, and no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have."**************** proof, as if it were needed that GRRM hasn't got even a ghost of a clue on how he is going to incorporate, much less resolve, the Others in the books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnowed Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Surely I am not alone in not seeing any bad feeling between D&D and GRRM? People seem to be reading far too much into anything lately, as far as I can tell they still work closely together and they are still discussing season 6 together even if George is not writing an episode in order to get the book out first. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't is the term which immediately springs to my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular John Umber Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 proof, as if it were needed that GRRM hasn't got even a ghost of a clue on how he is going to incorporate, much less resolve, the Others in the books Why do you say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lipican Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 (...) Whether you like or dislike what D & D have done with the material they had, don't try to sell it that they had shitty material to work from.Its not shitty material, but the pace of first three volumes and two last are just incomparable. AFfC is hardly a good material for on screen. One of my favourites chapters there is the one, when Cersei call for small council meeting with Aurane Waters, Harys Swift, Gyles Rosby etc. Splendid to read. Would it be fun to see it on a screen? Not so much..Or the rage about Jaime not in Riverlands. It would be great show to watch Jaime speaks bullshit with Bonifer Hasty and such. The only scenes, which would seem cool in GoT, are with Blackfish.Or Sansa. Whole season dining with lords of the Vale. Man, thats sounds like great TV! Sansa in Winterfell is also the only way how to let Theon speaks about his nightmares. In the book, its only in his head (the best chapters in Dance for me), there is nobody he can talk to.Dont consider me like a D/D lover, I am quite dissapointed (the breaking point was Shireen), but this season was much bigger challenge for the writers than the previous ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khorkalba Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Surely I am not alone in not seeing any bad feeling between D&D and GRRM? People seem to be reading far too much into anything lately, as far as I can tell they still work closely together and they are still discussing season 6 together even if George is not writing an episode in order to get the book out first. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't is the term which immediately springs to my mind. Initially, GRRM was full of praise for the show, calling it a faithful adaptation. Over last two years however, the only time he seems to speak about the show it's to subtly suggest that he's unhappy with changes D&D have made and to reiterate that the show and the books are seperate entities. Obviously he's not going to openly blast D&D with hateful criticism while the show is still running, and he's too busy with his books to step in quietly and say "you're doing this all wrong, let me help". Receiving enormous amounts of money as a result of the show probably also helps to quell any anger or disappointment he may be feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I am also worried for TWoW. We will read about Barristan, Mance, Shireen, Hizdahr, and ... who are dead in the tv show, have pov chapters by Arianne Martell, Victarion Greyjoy, Damphair and Jon Connington who are most likely cut from the show, and will have to read Sansa as Alayne chapters. Let's hope Jon doesn't warg into Ghost and we get woof, woof, sniff, sniff chapters.Basically, if the tv show spoils the outcome of FTW, why would I want to read TWoW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogonthedread Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 So Stannis may become Nights king that theory is starting to look more and more possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artihcus022 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Sansa in Winterfell is also the only way how to let Theon speaks about his nightmares. Except he doesn't speak about his nightmares, he continues to be the same evil petty coward that he always has been Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 At the very least, they compressed two bloated books into one short season. Did that create more mess? Even so, at least we didn't have to suffer 3,000+ pages for it.Yeah, but it's not just about cutting out the fat and reducing the bloat. You actually have to do something good with what you've got after cutting out the fat. D&D cut the fat out of a lot of storylines, but what they gave us was as boring or lame as the books, or even more. Look at show!Dorne. That's a fucking mess. You honestly can't tell me Jaime's show storyline has been better than his book storyline, and I really don't like his Feast arc. Ditto Arya. They cut out all of Brienne's walking around, and for what, to have her gazing at a tower for most of the season. They took out Sansa's dull chapters in the Vale to give Sansa's dull (and rapey) episodes in Winterfell. So reducing the bloat is not enough. D&D don't get a cookie for that. They really could've improved on the books but they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Yeah, but it's not just about cutting out the fat and reducing the bloat. You actually have to do something good with what you've got after cutting out the fat. D&D cut the fat out of a lot of storylines, but what they gave us was as boring or lame as the books, or even more. Look at show!Dorne. That's a fucking mess. You honestly can't tell me Jaime's show storyline has been better than his book storyline, and I really don't like his Feast arc. Ditto Arya. They cut out all of Brienne's walking around, and for what, to have her gazing at a tower for most of the season. They took out Sansa's dull chapters in the Vale to give Sansa's dull (and rapey) episodes in Winterfell. So reducing the bloat is not enough. D&D don't get a cookie for that. They really could've improved on the books but they didn't.Honestly, GRRM should have given a conclusion to the Lady Stoneheart, Brienne and Jamie mess in AFfC and should have given a conclusion to FTW and the battles of Winterfell and Mereen in ADwD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsug Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 GRRM should be thanking them. They are the only reason anyone knows who he is. They're the only reason mainstream consumers buy his books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotman74 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 This is not directed at any one person in particular, rather a trend I see not just here but lots of places in Webiverse. It's amazing to me how many people levy charges of poor storytelling, bad writing, shit swamp, bloated mess, and the like. We are consumers of others' works. Those others are professional writers, authors, directors, producers, etc., etc.. I fully support anyone's right to like or not like something, but it seems like such a jump to declare these things "utter crap". I guess I try to take the books and show as separate entities - and kind of enjoy the differences. I remember trying to read through the last two books was like doing yard work for weeks on end, with the occasional nice glass of lemonade. But I still like the novels and series. By the way, this was not Martin's first rodeo, and he knew exactly what was going to happen. I'm pretty sure he also knew he would not finish the final three books in six years or so, once the TV show started. Rant concluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northbound3.0 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 mainstream consumers buy his books.Exactly, what the fuck is a "mainstream consumer?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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