Interesting New Stuff from George

[Spilt Pea Soup]

Feast and Dance were a complete mess. Much worse than Season 5 in comparison to Books 1-3. If booksnobs applied the same level of criticism to the books that they do to the show, they'd have to admit that GRRM lost the plot, spun his tires, and produced two awful books that very few people like. The show has rescued this series from a death spiral of Martin's creation. D&D have made George enormously rich, brought him much more fame and acclaim than he would have garnered with just the books, expanded his fan base by a significant factor, and saved the series from the awful mess that AFFC and ADWD was.

It's completely ridiculous that booksnobs blame D&D for cobbling together something coherent and watchable from the crap that George gave them in the last two books. Hopefully from here on out, they'll fly free of his nonsense and race to a satisfying conclusion, because Lord knows that is the *only* way we ever get to see a satisfying conclusion.

The fans here are a disgrace to themselves, and to everyone involved, and should be ashamed of themselves.

[not the besteros]

Feast and Dance were a complete mess. Much worse than Season 5 in comparison to Books 1-3. If booksnobs applied the same level of criticism to the books that they do to the show, they'd have to admit that GRRM lost the plot, spun his tires, and produced two awful books that very few people like. The show has rescued this series from a death spiral of Martin's creation. D&D have made George enormously rich, brought him much more fame and acclaim than he would have garnered with just the books, expanded his fan base by a significant factor, and saved the series from the awful mess that AFFC and ADWD was.

It's completely ridiculous that booksnobs blame D&D for cobbling together something coherent and watchable from the crap that George gave them in the last two books. Hopefully from here on out, they'll fly free of his nonsense and race to a satisfying conclusion, because Lord knows that is the *only* way we ever get to see a satisfying conclusion.

The fans here are a disgrace to themselves, and to everyone involved, and should be ashamed of themselves.

I agree that the show is actually pretty alright and better than a lot of people give it credit for, but I disagree that Feast and Dance were the worst of the series. AFFC has mad tone, yo.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

God it really was way better than ADwD, which I can't bear to even try to read again.

[not the besteros]

Dance can be a bit of a chore to get through, but I think some of the best single chapters come out of it.

[Rhodan]

So, wait... Night´s King isn´t spoiler after all, but rather completely show´s addition? This however, is suggesting that books will never really explain Others which might feel very anti-climactic.

[Polo]

If the Night's King is something of a show creation (that he's still alive), won't that inherently effect the ending of the show they constantly claim will have the same ending as the book?

[alienarea]

Feast and Dance were a complete mess. Much worse than Season 5 in comparison to Books 1-3. If booksnobs applied the same level of criticism to the books that they do to the show, they'd have to admit that GRRM lost the plot, spun his tires, and produced two awful books that very few people like. The show has rescued this series from a death spiral of Martin's creation. D&D have made George enormously rich, brought him much more fame and acclaim than he would have garnered with just the books, expanded his fan base by a significant factor, and saved the series from the awful mess that AFFC and ADWD was.

It's completely ridiculous that booksnobs blame D&D for cobbling together something coherent and watchable from the crap that George gave them in the last two books. Hopefully from here on out, they'll fly free of his nonsense and race to a satisfying conclusion, because Lord knows that is the *only* way we ever get to see a satisfying conclusion.

The fans here are a disgrace to themselves, and to everyone involved, and should be ashamed of themselves.

Thank you. Fully agree.

I am glad D&D didn't show what GRRM did to Jeyne Poole and we didn't have to deal with Harry the Heir. Killing off Mance was a good decision, and showing more White Walkers earlier as well.

I miss Jaimie in the Riverlands, but maybe season 6.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Feast and Dance were a complete mess. Much worse than Season 5 in comparison to Books 1-3. If booksnobs applied the same level of criticism to the books that they do to the show, they'd have to admit that GRRM lost the plot, spun his tires, and produced two awful books that very few people like. The show has rescued this series from a death spiral of Martin's creation. D&D have made George enormously rich, brought him much more fame and acclaim than he would have garnered with just the books, expanded his fan base by a significant factor, and saved the series from the awful mess that AFFC and ADWD was.It's completely ridiculous that booksnobs blame D&D for cobbling together something coherent and watchable from the crap that George gave them in the last two books. Hopefully from here on out, they'll fly free of his nonsense and race to a satisfying conclusion, because Lord knows that is the *only* way we ever get to see a satisfying conclusion.The fans here are a disgrace to themselves, and to everyone involved, and should be ashamed of themselves.

I agree that Feast and Dance were a mess, but D&D didn't fix shit, they just made a mess of their own

It's like calling a plumber to fix a leaking pipe, but instead the guy goes and breaks your window. So now you're left with a leaking pipe and a broken window. That's how we're now: with two mediocre books and a mediocre adaptation of said books

[Tijgy]

Nice I love of GRRM to help with the NK confusion. I really could not follow anymore

[JonisHenryTudor]

I agree, I would be extremely pissed off if I were him. I highly doubt that dropping that spoiler was sanctioned.

Why? It is his fault. He signed the papers. If he didn't want it to happened, he should get the books out. I get that it takes time to write, but the world does not stop for george.

[Dragon_Rider]

Feast and Dance were a complete mess. Much worse than Season 5 in comparison to Books 1-3. If booksnobs applied the same level of criticism to the books that they do to the show, they'd have to admit that GRRM lost the plot, spun his tires, and produced two awful books that very few people like. The show has rescued this series from a death spiral of Martin's creation. D&D have made George enormously rich, brought him much more fame and acclaim than he would have garnered with just the books, expanded his fan base by a significant factor, and saved the series from the awful mess that AFFC and ADWD was.

It's completely ridiculous that booksnobs blame D&D for cobbling together something coherent and watchable from the crap that George gave them in the last two books. Hopefully from here on out, they'll fly free of his nonsense and race to a satisfying conclusion, because Lord knows that is the *only* way we ever get to see a satisfying conclusion.

The fans here are a disgrace to themselves, and to everyone involved, and should be ashamed of themselves.

I think GRRM wrote himself into corner with AFFC and ADWD and found himself a bit highly unmotivated to untangle the mess he got his characters into. Hence the indefinite delay for the last two books ever since, and the preference to spend his writing energy on supplemental stories.

He probably would have been better off sticking to his original plan of allowing several years to pass by after the third book.

Ironically, the show has brought such fame, money and acclaim to him that it might actually be working against the pressure to complete the series. What's in it for him now to complete it, especially if it's not something he even wants to do at this point? He's clearly more interested in writing other stories, more so than writing 3,000 to 4,000 more pages of ASOIF.

I would not be surprised at all if they're never finished.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I agree that Feast and Dance were a mess, but D&D didn't fix shit, they just made a mess of their own

It's like calling a plumber to fix a leaking pipe, but instead the guy goes and breaks your window. So now you're left with a leaking pipe and a broken window. That's how we're now: with two mediocre books and a mediocre adaptation of said books

Well let's wait until WoW and DoS are out to see if they really broke stuff.

And to be fair, the original script was pretty bad. Unless of course dry tv is what you are shooting for.

[Gendry_Goldeneyes]

sounds like the night's king from modern day is heir to the original night's king's title

[kephv]

Feast and Dance were a complete mess. Much worse than Season 5 in comparison to Books 1-3. If booksnobs applied the same level of criticism to the books that they do to the show, they'd have to admit that GRRM lost the plot, spun his tires, and produced two awful books that very few people like. The show has rescued this series from a death spiral of Martin's creation. D&D have made George enormously rich, brought him much more fame and acclaim than he would have garnered with just the books, expanded his fan base by a significant factor, and saved the series from the awful mess that AFFC and ADWD was.

It's completely ridiculous that booksnobs blame D&D for cobbling together something coherent and watchable from the crap that George gave them in the last two books. Hopefully from here on out, they'll fly free of his nonsense and race to a satisfying conclusion, because Lord knows that is the *only* way we ever get to see a satisfying conclusion.

The fans here are a disgrace to themselves, and to everyone involved, and should be ashamed of themselves.

Look, as a book purist first and foremost, I fully understand that some people like the show better than the books. It has more viewers than George will ever have readers.

That said, the book purists here do apply the same criticism to the books that they have to the show. Look around now and read the old threads also and you'll see that plenty of people tore apart both Feast and Dance -- the earlier books as well, in some cases. However, you'll also find plenty of people that loved both Feast and Dance, though the fact that both books are rated as highly as they are seems to say that there were many more of those that loved them than despised them.

And yes, they do tear apart the show as well. However, in many cases this is for very different reasons than those in the books. Season 5, for instance, is filled with poor adaptation choices that are either ridiculous or outright illogical. Take Ramsay's twenty good men wreaking havoc on a camp of thousands, the excuse being that they know the north better; inconsistent characterization, Dany immediately comes to mind here; or Jon and the group of Wildlings showing up on the opposite side of the Wall from Hardhome; not to mention the entire Dorne plot line is a farce.

There's no shame in admitting these things, unless you're somehow shamed by the fact that the show can do wrong, in which case you could easily replace a few words in your post and everything you said about book purists would apply to yourself.

[Dragon_Rider]

I agree that Feast and Dance were a mess, but D&D didn't fix shit, they just made a mess of their own

It's like calling a plumber to fix a leaking pipe, but instead the guy goes and breaks your window. So now you're left with a leaking pipe and a broken window. That's how we're now: with two mediocre books and a mediocre adaptation of said books

At the very least, they compressed two bloated books into one short season. Did that create more mess? Even so, at least we didn't have to suffer 3,000+ pages for it.

[Regular John Umber]

God it really was way better than ADwD, which I can't bear to even try to read again.

I'll never understand this. aDwD was the first book I went to when I wanted to re-read. It's literally my favourite one. In fact, combined with Feast, it's the best section of the whole series so far.

I think part of the issue might be that people don't understand that it's the start of a whole new act (the middle one) and not the build up to a climax. That's what the next act is for.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Feast and Dance were a complete mess. Much worse than Season 5 in comparison to Books 1-3. If booksnobs applied the same level of criticism to the books that they do to the show, they'd have to admit that GRRM lost the plot, spun his tires, and produced two awful books that very few people like. The show has rescued this series from a death spiral of Martin's creation. D&D have made George enormously rich, brought him much more fame and acclaim than he would have garnered with just the books, expanded his fan base by a significant factor, and saved the series from the awful mess that AFFC and ADWD was.

It's completely ridiculous that booksnobs blame D&D for cobbling together something coherent and watchable from the crap that George gave them in the last two books. Hopefully from here on out, they'll fly free of his nonsense and race to a satisfying conclusion, because Lord knows that is the *only* way we ever get to see a satisfying conclusion.

The fans here are a disgrace to themselves, and to everyone involved, and should be ashamed of themselves.

Are you seriously calling people booksnobs on a message board about books? Do you realize how stupid you sound?

[bent branch]

I have seen so many posts with people claiming that AFFC and ADWD are terrible books and D & D had to do something because those books were so horrible that they couldn't bring them to the screen. I have been unable to relate to this point of view because I loved the books and I love them even more on re-reads. Because of these claims that the books are universally loathed, I went to Good Reads to see what the ratings for each book were. Here are the stats from Good Reads:

AGOT: 88% rated it 4 or 5, 97% rated it 3 or above, 971,621 ratings

ACOK: 88% rated it 4 or 5, 99% rated it 3 or above, 441,591 ratings

ASOS: 91% rated it 4 or 5, 99% rated it 3 or above, 383,352 ratings

AFFC: 73% rated it 4 or 5, 95% rated it 3 or above, 344,833 ratings

ADWD: 82% rated it 4 or 5, 97% rated it 3 or above, 292,713 ratings

So, there was a drop in 4 or 5 ratings for those two books, but even for AFFC 95% of the people liked the book. I think it is time to challenge the idea being spread that they were terrible books. The truth is that a small percentage of people liked those two books less than the others and have been very vocal about their displeasure. Whether you like or dislike what D & D have done with the material they had, don't try to sell it that they had shitty material to work from.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I have seen so many posts with people claiming that AFFC and ADWD are terrible books and D & D had to do something because those books were so horrible that they couldn't bring them to the screen. I have been unable to relate to this point of view because I loved the books and I love them even more on re-reads. Because of these claims that the books are universally loathed, I went to Good Reads to see what the ratings for each book were. Here are the stats from Good Reads:

AGOT: 88% rated it 4 or 5, 97% rated it 3 or above, 971,621 ratings

ACOK: 88% rated it 4 or 5, 99% rated it 3 or above, 441,591 ratings

ASOS: 91% rated it 4 or 5, 99% rated it 3 or above, 383,352 ratings

AFFC: 73% rated it 4 or 5, 95% rated it 3 or above, 344,833 ratings

ADWD: 82% rated it 4 or 5, 97% rated it 3 or above, 292,713 ratings

So, there was a drop in 4 or 5 ratings for those two books, but even for AFFC 95% of the people liked the book. I think it is time to challenge the idea being spread that they were terrible books. The truth is that a small percentage of people liked those two books less than the others and have been very vocal about their displeasure. Whether you like or dislike what D & D have done with the material they had, don't try to sell it that they had shitty material to work from.

I doubt people such as split pea soup have even read them. The fact that they keep saying that the majority hates them is so wrong and all you have to do is look at the goodreads ratings of the books. I guess their idea of a good story is Jaime's adventure in Dorne or Brienne waiting for candles.

[Ser Quork]

Look, as a book purist first and foremost, I fully understand that some people like the show better than the books. It has more viewers than George will ever have readers.

That said, the book purists here do apply the same criticism to the books that they have to the show. Look around now and read the old threads also and you'll see that plenty of people tore apart both Feast and Dance -- the earlier books as well, in some cases. However, you'll also find plenty of people that loved both Feast and Dance, though the fact that both books are rated as highly as they are seems to say that there were many more of those that loved them than despised them.

And yes, they do tear apart the show as well. However, in many cases this is for very different reasons than those in the books. Season 5, for instance, is filled with poor adaptation choices that are either ridiculous or outright illogical. Take Ramsay's twenty good men wreaking havoc on a camp of thousands, the excuse being that they know the north better; inconsistent characterization, Dany immediately comes to mind here; or Jon and the group of Wildlings showing up on the opposite side of the Wall from Hardhome; not to mention the entire Dorne plot line is a farce.

There's no shame in admitting these things, unless you're somehow shamed by the fact that the show can do wrong, in which case you could easily replace a few words in your post and everything you said about book purists would apply to yourself.

Well said.

Plus, to the poster who asked if anyone had asked GRRM for his take, there's this: http://grrm.livejournal.com/428790.html?thread=21734390#t21734390