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[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

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Why would she agree to it.

Because

1. He rescued her from King's Landing

2. He recued her from Lysa.

3. He likely was the one who had the Bolton's ousted.

If she dies.

1. Well he still ousted whoever was there.

2. He has the Vale and the crown backing him so try to beat him with the biggest and least damaged army North of Dorne and the Westerlands and Reach supporting him. Good luck.

Do you really think Sansa would agree to marry LF? Really?

She's more likely to kill him, but I suppose you could argue that LF might have a considerable blind spot when it comes to Sansa.

The thing is, the battle of Winterfell was going to happen regardless of whether Sansa was there. Her presence at WF has not done anything for the overall plot, since there have been no Northern Lords plotting to free her. She has once again been a pawn in someone else's story. And if LF ends up ousting the Boltons, I would expect Sansa to inform the other Northern Lords about how LF handed her over to the Boltons. I literally cannot see any way LF ends up Warden of the North. Either the Northern Lords will kill him or Sansa will. He may still have the Vale's support, but then what was the point of it all?

Edit: please don't forget the power that Sansa actually has over LF. People seem to forget that all she has to do to turn the Vale Lords against him is tell them the truth about Lysa's death.

Edited by Dolorous Gabe

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I don't feel it makes sense in the show's own context, regardless of the books. It seems to me I'm perfectly within my rights to analyse the show critically.

Of course you are.

But my point is: Littlefinger clearly has the Vale Knights behind him. Whether you think the way it happened makes sense or not, it happened. So, if you argue (as someone did earlier in this thread) that Littlefinger can't attack Bolton because he doesn't have any army to do it with, you're just wasting your own time and everyone else's. He does have an army, and therefore, he can do it, and therefore, any plans that he makes that rely on his being able to do it are not stupid plans. If you're not willing to grant that he has the Vale Lords on his side, you're not judging the show on what actually happens in the show, so you should have stopped watching. (Or, looked at another way: It's already committed a sin that you cannot get past; why pretend you've gotten past it?)

Let me try to give a more neutral analogy that people won't have any reason to react to emotionally. Do you watch Flash? It was ridiculous that the Flash recruited Captain Cold's to keep a bunch of supervillains on ice while transporting them, because Captain Cold's only power is that he has a cold gun, which the good guys built in the first place, and have already told us they could easily reproduce. And yet, he did it. So, later, when Captain Cold shot and killed Deathbolt, there's nothing wrong with that scene. Given that he was there, it makes perfect sense that he could and would do what he did. If I want to argue that he couldn't have been there in the first place, I should have stopped watching after they recruited Captain Cold.

I can still complain that it was stupid (and out of character) for the Flash to recruit Captain Cold, but I can't complain that it was impossible for Captain Cold to kill Deathbolt, or that his plan once recruited was stupid because it relies on him being recruited which is impossible.

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I highly recommend reading THIS by Chebyshov and Julia Martell. It's a long read but it gets to the absolute crux of the issues.

I already read that but thank you. it is lovely. Chebyshov and Julia Martell did a great job as always :bowdown:

No good dialogue.

So Tyrion and Dany's table scene was not good dialogue?

Yes, I think it was 1. boring because I did not feel anything during that conversation, suprisingly for me there was no hype.

2. forced because "uh yeah, 2 fan favs are talking nonsense" and "yeah that must be great"

"Tyrion is so great, the first thing I do I will let him into my private chambers, so we can chat, no matter if he is a Lannister or not" (Dany voice)

and 3. it simply confirmed that Dany changes her mind in every scene she is in.

> This wheel thing sounded like she was trying to break down the system of monarchy while she herself performs the role of a monarch in Meereen.

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Can you please elaborate on many others? Almost everybody loves the show, the ratings and the raving reviews prove it. Even here, in the den of denial, more people voted the last episode a 10 than a 1 - heck, the worst average rating of one episode is 6 and most averages are 8 and 9.

And then tell me again that there is no good dialogue in the show :lol: I even give you an example: Tyrion and Varys in episode 10 - simply brilliant.

And speaking of book!Dorne - since you are so keen on good dialogue and love Dance so much - here's one example of exemplary dialogue that was sorely missed in the show: I am Darkstar and I am of the night.

What a gem, what poetry..

I think nobody is calling the books a masterpiece or an all time and glorious work of literature in the post-modern era.

However, I think Martin greatly suceeded in creating many rich and round characters in his epic. The whole structure of having many focalized characters is unique. Whereas in epic fantasy we nowadys normally can find the structure of a linear plot (in the sense of "characters follow plot" - since yeah we have an epic narrative) we have quite the opposite in Martin's work properly mostly due to the rather realisitc tone.

And now I think that the show mostly fails in creating something similar to the TV screen. In GOT, characters aren't fully fleshed out, they are rather one-dimensional aka flat. And what is the funniest thing that they even change their one-dimensional attitude. When Martin avoids to create fantasy's most often used theme of the external struggle of Good versus Evil by making it internal, D&D do rather the opposite. The struggle must always be external for them since I sometimes believe that D&D are afraid of producing a demanding and mature TV series.

Tyrion and Varys in ep. 10 was brilliant. I completely disagree here. Thie dialogue came out of the blue since Varys had properly hidding behind a Meereense curtain all the time. Then he simply bombs the scene and tells Tyrion how great he is.

Oh and Porne. I cannot say something positive about this Porne Plot except maybe some female body parts. But female body parts shoudn't be the focus. EDIT

Edited by Coby's Watch

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She's more likely to kill him, but I suppose you could argue that LF might have a considerable blind spot when it comes to Sansa.

He definitely does. At least sometimes, he sees her as like teenage Cat, but even better, because this time he's in control instead of stupid Hoster Tully or Brandon Stark, and he can finish raising her into his perfect wife.

Edit: please don't forget the power that Sansa actually has over LF. People seem to forget that all she has to do to turn the Vale Lords against him is tell them the truth about Lysa's death.

Sure, but the point above, together with the fact that LF clearly thinks he's an even better manipulator than he is, and that he doesn't seem to understand people who do things against their own self-interest for any reason other than bad game-playing or being manipulated, and he may be a lot less worried about this than he should be.

(By the last part, it's a bit hard to explain what I mean, but: LF understands that Cersei will cut off her nose to spite her Margy, and he has to take that into account when dealing with her. But he doesn't expect that Ned will make a choice that isn't good for himself. If he had, he could have tailored his plan to appeal to Ned's honor, his anger at Cersei, and/or his concern for his daughters, but he didn't do any of that. LF's plan was the best thing Ned could hope for, Ned wasn't trying to play any game of his own, nobody else was using Ned as a pawn, so it was almost inconceivable that Ned would say no. In the same way, if LF sets up a situation where it's in Sansa best interest to play along, he may not take into account the fact that she's hurt, or thinks he needs to be stopped, or whatever, and therefore she may be willing to use the only weapon he's left her even if it leaves her personally in a worse position. Anyway, I hope if this is what they're planning for LF's downfall, they do more work to set it up over a few episodes next season. Sansa has to believably sacrifice something to take LF down for a reason he believably wouldn't anticipate; otherwise, it would be a pointless storyline.)

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But female body parts of women shoudn't be the focus.

Female body parts of women as opposed to female body parts of men, or male body parts of women? :)

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Of course you are.But my point is: Littlefinger clearly has the Vale Knights behind him. Whether you think the way it happened makes sense or not, it happened. So, if you argue (as someone did earlier in this thread) that Littlefinger can't attack Bolton because he doesn't have any army to do it with, you're just wasting your own time and everyone else's. He does have an army, and therefore, he can do it, and therefore, any plans that he makes that rely on his being able to do it are not stupid plans. If you're not willing to grant that he has the Vale Lords on his side, you're not judging the show on what actually happens in the show, so you should have stopped watching. (Or, looked at another way: It's already committed a sin that you cannot get past; why pretend you've gotten past it?)Let me try to give a more neutral analogy that people won't have any reason to react to emotionally. Do you watch Flash? It was ridiculous that the Flash recruited Captain Cold's to keep a bunch of supervillains on ice while transporting them, because Captain Cold's only power is that he has a cold gun, which the good guys built in the first place, and have already told us they could easily reproduce. And yet, he did it. So, later, when Captain Cold shot and killed Deathbolt, there's nothing wrong with that scene. Given that he was there, it makes perfect sense that he could and would do what he did. If I want to argue that he couldn't have been there in the first place, I should have stopped watching after they recruited Captain Cold.I can still complain that it was stupid (and out of character) for the Flash to recruit Captain Cold, but I can't complain that it was impossible for Captain Cold to kill Deathbolt, or that his plan once recruited was stupid because it relies on him being recruited which is impossible.

I see what you're saying. That there's no point in criticising new episodes individually based on problems of previous episodes.

That's fine, I understand that way of thinking. I just think however LF's plan turns out he's not going to achieve what he intends and it will end up being his downfall and the only way you can justify LF making such an error of judgement is if you assume he has a total blind spot when it comes to Sansa. It just seems ludicrous to me that LF wouldn't expect an issue with Sansa after having put her through Ramsay's Winterhell.

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I think nobody is calling the books a masterpiece or an all time and glorious work of literature in the post-modern era.

However, I think Martin greatly suceeded in creating many rich and round characters in his epic. The whole structure of having many focalized characters is unique. Whereas in epic fantasy we nowadys normally can find the structure of a linear plot (in the sense of "characters follow plot" - since yeah we have an epic narrative) we have quite the opposite in Martin's work properly mostly due to the rather realisitc tone.

And now I think that the show mostly fails in creating something similar to the TV screen. In GOT, characters aren't fully fleshed out, they are rather one-dimensional aka flat. And what is the funniest thing that they even change their one-dimensional attitude. When Martin avoids to create fantasy's most often used theme of the external struggle of Good versus Evil by making it internal, D&D do rather the opposite. The struggle must always be external for them since I sometimes believe that D&D are afraid of producing a demanding and mature TV series.

Tyrion and Varys in ep. 10 was brilliant. I completely disagree here. Thie dialogue came out of the blue since Varys had properly hidding behind a Meereense curtain all the time. Then he simply bombs the scene and tells Tyrion how great he is.

Oh and Porne. I cannot say something positive about this Porne Plot except maybe some female body parts. But female body parts shoudn't be the focus. EDIT

I think the books are a masterpiece, and to me they are an all time great work of fiction, for any time or era, I think they are superb

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I think the books are a masterpiece, and to me they are an all time great work of fiction, for any time or era, I think they are superb

:agree:

Lots of people dismiss fantasy because of genre bias.

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Do you really think Sansa would agree to marry LF? Really?

She's more likely to kill him, but I suppose you could argue that LF might have a considerable blind spot when it comes to Sansa.

The thing is, the battle of Winterfell was going to happen regardless of whether Sansa was there. Her presence at WF has not done anything for the overall plot, since there have been no Northern Lords plotting to free her. She has once again been a pawn in someone else's story. And if LF ends up ousting the Boltons, I would expect Sansa to inform the other Northern Lords about how LF handed her over to the Boltons. I literally cannot see any way LF ends up Warden of the North. Either the Northern Lords will kill him or Sansa will. He may still have the Vale's support, but then what was the point of it all?

Edit: please don't forget the power that Sansa actually has over LF. People seem to forget that all she has to do to turn the Vale Lords against him is tell them the truth about Lysa's death.

But you have to take into account that at this point Sansa already agreed to cover up Lysa's murder for LF and agreed to marry Ramsay Bolton and give legitimacy to her mother and brothers killer because LF suggested it.

She's very much under LF's spell. In the books a different dynamic exists where Sansa has more power. In the show LF has been stringing her along the whole way. At this point in the game, once again LF is the guy that comes to the rescue (after putting her in danger, just like he put her in danger by killing Joffrey and then "saved her" by sneaking her out of KL, and the time he put her in danger from Lysa's jealous rage and "saved her" by killing her aunt).

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:agree:

Lots of people dismiss fantasy because of genre bias.

Please don’t get me wrong. I love them too and I love fantasy yes. I mean I wrote my thesis on ASOIAF. I absolutely love it, But that does not mean that the literary canon will include/ or includes ASOIAF into their "list". Unfortunately that is not the case at the moment. I had a hard time finding any literary criticism on ASOIAF that was done by fantasy researchers that are worth citing in a research paper. think there was only one important fantasy anthology that mentioned it in about one sentence. Form a scientific perspective I sincerely hope that this will change, but you never know. See above I explained one aspect of ASOIAF uniqueness.

ETA: and I believe there is actually something going on when comes to fantasy at the moment. Especially after Tolkien there was something like an explosion and fantasy as genre lost some kind of its partial negative connotation of children's lit.

There are many people that currently are working on Martin on a professional level especially when it comes to dissertation. When Martin finishes his novel there might be again a little explosion (ASOIAF as part of the literary canon) since he clearly differs from current and previous fantasy novels.

So I hope ASOIAF will establish itself because I believe it deserves more appreciation. However, it was not the case as I started writing my thesis.

Edited by Coby's Watch

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But you have to take into account that at this point Sansa already agreed to cover up Lysa's murder for LF and agreed to marry Ramsay Bolton and give legitimacy to her mother and brothers killer because LF suggested it.

She's very much under LF's spell. In the books a different dynamic exists where Sansa has more power. In the show LF has been stringing her along the whole way. At this point in the game, once again LF is the guy that comes to the rescue (after putting her in danger, just like he put her in danger by killing Joffrey and then "saved her" by sneaking her out of KL, and the time he put her in danger from Lysa's jealous rage and "saved her" by killing her aunt).

I dislike the very idea that a major character should never learn from her mistakes. It's not a character arc she's on. What is the point of her KL experience and LF's teachings about pawns and players if she just becomes a pawn again? It's a bad character arc. She has been portrayed as being perennially stupid to serve others.

As long as she remains under LF's spell, as you put it, it's a bad character arc for someone who is supposed to be a major character.

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Oh I felt some kind of secondhand embarrassment during this season because I definitely only watch an estranged plot summary of GOT that was written for a mass media audience. GOT lost its spirit or its motor since the deepness/themes/motivation and characters got lost somewhere on the road.


This adaption collapsed in season 5 and all that is left at the moment is a distorted and empty shell of lovely tale named ASOIAF.


I am simply disappointed although I can understand that making an adaption is difficult. However, I have the feeling that this show doesn’t even try to adapt anymore. I lost the feeling and I am scared when am thinking about season 6. That’s the reason I will stop watching. I am simply scared that they will destroy my personal enthusiasm and escapism-feeling. But still, I decided to continue reading the GOT threads here since as long as I do not perceive this aborted GOT world visually, I think it will work.


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She doesn't ask for evidence because it would be stupid of him to lie when she can and will find out the truth. You think KL isn't in communication with the Lords Paramount? Unless LF somehow knows that she'll soon be arrested by the Faith and no longer a problem (which seems unlikely), he'd be a fool to make such a transparent lie.

Which Lords Paramount are you referring to here? Roose? Because I somehow doubt he's planning to confess, whether or not he has Sansa. And if Cersei has spies in the North who can confirm that Sansa is there, wouldn't they also mention the fact that Littlefinger was in Winterfell as well? I doubt that Cersei has such spies though; Littlefinger didn't have the spies necessary to inform him about Ramsey's true nature (confirmed by the writers) so I doubt a Varys-less Cersei did. So lying about Sansa being there would seem to work just fine.

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I dislike the very idea that a major character should never learn from her mistakes. It's not a character arc she's on. What is the point of her KL experience and LF's teachings about pawns and players if she just becomes a pawn again? It's a bad character arc. She has been portrayed as being perennially stupid to serve others.

As long as she remains under LF's spell, as you put it, it's a bad character arc for someone who is supposed to be a major character.

If she finally turns on LF after he "rescues" her from Ramsay, unexpectedly to him because of his blind spot, she will be a character who failed to learn from her first mistake, and only learned from her second mistake right before making a third. That's an interesting character arc, and it would make for dramatic television. And she'd hardly be the first character in fiction who needs more than one mistake to learn her lesson (that goes back at least to Odysseus).

Of course we have no way of knowing that's what D&D are planning, or that they'll be able to pull it off if it is their plan. But to say that she can't possibly be on any kind of interesting story arc right now, without having seen the end of that arc, when there's at least one possibility and probably plenty of others, is silly. And if you're just going to assume that it's impossible that show will ever do anything interesting, even when it has an obvious opportunity to do so, there's literally no reason to watch the show, because it cannot possibly be interesting.

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Which Lords Paramount are you referring to here? Roose? Because I somehow doubt he's planning to confess, whether or not he has Sansa.

Yes, Roose. I was replying to a post that said that going to Winterfell at all made no sense when he could have just lied to Cersei. If he did that, Roose would have no reason to back him up.

Sure, he could use a different plan, going to Winterfell without Sansa, to bring Roose into the plot with him. (In fact, as I suggested earlier, if he had access to a Jeyne Poole, that might even be a better plan.) In that case, of course, Roose would lie to Cersei for him. But that's not what we're discussing here.

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If she finally turns on LF after he "rescues" her from Ramsay, unexpectedly to him because of his blind spot, she will be a character who failed to learn from her first mistake, and only learned from her second mistake right before making a third. That's an interesting character arc, and it would make for dramatic television. And she'd hardly be the first character in fiction who needs more than one mistake to learn her lesson (that goes back at least to Odysseus).

Of course we have no way of knowing that's what D&D are planning, or that they'll be able to pull it off if it is their plan. But to say that she can't possibly be on any kind of interesting story arc right now, without having seen the end of that arc, when there's at least one possibility and probably plenty of others, is silly. And if you're just going to assume that it's impossible that show will ever do anything interesting, even when it has an obvious opportunity to do so, there's literally no reason to watch the show, because it cannot possibly be interesting.

I never said she can't have an interesting character arc in the future. You're putting words in my mouth.

She has been serving D&D's requirements by being a moron. If/when she finally starts to realise how to stop being a pawn and create her own destiny, I'll evaluate her character development at that point and take it into account in my analysis of the season in which it finally happens, but it won't legitimise the startling idiocy and lack of character growth she has displayed this season. If anything, her development regressed from the end of last season.

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Yes, Roose. I was replying to a post that said that going to Winterfell at all made no sense when he could have just lied to Cersei. If he did that, Roose would have no reason to back him up.

Sure, he could use a different plan, going to Winterfell without Sansa, to bring Roose into the plot with him. (In fact, as I suggested earlier, if he had access to a Jeyne Poole, that might even be a better plan.) In that case, of course, Roose would lie to Cersei for him. But that's not what we're discussing here.

Yes, that was my suggestion. Simply lie to Cersei that Ramsey married Sansa. Do you honestly think Cersei, whether the marriage actually takes place or not, is going to write to Roose Bolton and ask him if it's true? And if it is, surely Roose would simply deny it? He's not going to confess, and if for some reason he did, surely he would mention that it was LF who brought Sansa to him? There is actually a good question here of why Roose simply didn't wait for LF to leave and then send a raven to Cersei telling her that he had Sansa (a wanted fugitive) and that it was LF who brought her there.

Also, LF doesn't require the assistance of Roose in any of the scenarios suggested. LF is just waiting for him to be beaten by Stannis or for him to beat Stannis so that LF can finish off Roose afterwards.

Edited by WSmith84

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Oh and frankly, digs at critics' intelligence just makes you look petty and childish.

I said that people who keep carping on about the showrunners being stupid make themselves look idiotic. You strip out the context in a pathetic attempt to take the high ground. You don't make yourself look clever by calling other people stupid and you don't make yourself look clever with that ploy either.

Here is another fact that you might want to get your brain around. If the show has littlefinger doing X, then that is the sort of thing show littlefinger does. Complaining that it is out of character is ludicrous because by definition, that it what show littlefinger does.

Show littlefinger manages to parlay Sansa to get within striking distance of becomming warden of the North. Show littlefinger is a manipulative liar who causes the death of Ned, Catlyn, Robb, Joffrey, murders several people with his own hands and lets Joffrey murder Ros. And you think he wouldn't do something because he is too honorable to do such a thing to Sansa.

So show littlefinger has aptly demonstrated that he is more than capable of fooling large numbers of people on this forum that he would not do such a despicable thing to Sansa despite the fact that folk here have vastly more information than Sansa does. So it really should be no surprise that Sansa was fooled. But don't complain about how stupid the showrunners are for having an evil despicable character do an evil despicable thing that profits him greatly.

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