(Spoilers All) The True King

[bobbechk]

You guys are missing the point, Stannis just fulfilled another part of his prophecy to become Azor Ahai.

At first he went to temper Lightbringer in (the black)water but his attack was shattered.

Then he waited long and hard before making another attack, but again his steel were shattered (ok ok I have no idea who or what the lion that is supposed to get impaled is)

Then in he will drive Lightbringer into Selysse after she has burned Shireen at the wall unbeknownst to him.

[420faceless]

People say my mum died a couple of years ago.
They're all lying because I didn't actually see her die.
I know she's going to come and visit me tomorrow.
Or maybe the day after that.

[Androme]

You guys are missing the point, Stannis just fulfilled another part of his prophecy to become Azor Ahai.

At first he went to temper Lightbringer in (the black)water but his attack was shattered.

Then he waited long and hard before making another attack, but again his steel were shattered (ok ok I have no idea who or what the lion that is supposed to get impaled is)

Then in he will drive Lightbringer into Selysse after she has burned Shireen at the wall unbeknownst to him.

I doubt it.

[Nictarion]

I genuinely don't understand what you're trying to say. Your argument against attempting to save the world by ensuring victory by sacrificing your own daughter is Davos' feelings on the matter?

Good argument.

(Is this a joke? :D)

Let me make it easier for you, in the books Stannis asked Davos what is one bastard boy life vs an entire kingdom, which Davos answers EVERYTHING! If you have to burn little kids to save the world, then it's not worth saving. There's not justifying what Stannis did.

[Androme]

Let me make it easier for you, in the books Stannis asked Davos what is one bastard boy life vs an entire kingdom, which Davos answers EVERYTHING! If you have to burn little kids to save the world, then it's not worth saving. There's not justifying what Stannis did.

So because Davos answered everything, that suddenly turns that into a divine truth?

Alright, I think I've found the village retard.

[Metopheles]

As a Daenerys supporter and only recently Stannis appreciator, I kneel before the Warrior of Light. Azor Ahai Come Again.

The Lord blew out his flame, but he shines on, brighter and eternal in our hearts.

Spoiler

But wait...

there's more!

Tune in next Season to find out what happened to Stanley Barton and his new adventures with Brian of Tarth! Who will they meet? Who will they fight? And most importantly: Will they overcome their differences and make peace?

Find out next spring only on HBO!!!1!1!

[OldGimletEye]

The sodding bastards D&D really just dont care about Stannis at all. I wish they would just rename the show to: "Sexy Young Dragon Lady Overcomes Everyone with Dragons and Eyebrows".

Poor Steven Dillane didnt even get told who Stannis bloody well was before shooting:

Well, remember that the Targaryen Ministry of Truth never rests.

I'm not particularly of fond of Stannis, but if turns out that book!Stannis has nothing to do with the murder of Shireen, Stannis fans have every right to be furious with D & D, as it would appear they have taken it upon themselves to tell the fandom whom to root for.

[bobbechk]

I doubt it.

Yeah I kind of do as well...

[Lord Varys]

Renly-Brienne:

Renly did have a claim to the Iron Throne. Stannis' legal claim was better, of course, as was the claim of Cersei's sons whom Renly believed to be Robert's, but this doesn't mean Renly had no claim or even a bad claim. If you read TWoIaF you will learn that there were multiple precedents in which a younger royal line or son came before the elder - most notable during the succession of the Old King, Jaehaerys I (which had the Old King's second son and eventually his grandson by his second son come before his granddaughter by his eldest son and his great-grandson by this granddaughter), the succession of Maekar I (which had Aegon V, the king's youngest son, come before Maekar's grandchildren by his first and second son). Not to mention that both Maegor the Cruel and Robert Baratheon proved in battle that a younger son can come before the children of his brother (or his second cousin - Robert has had a Targaryen grandmother, after all).

In that sense, Renly wasn't really this bad as people try to make him if they only read the books. Prince Duncan Targaryen - the Mad King's uncle - even gave up his claim to the Iron Throne in favour of Aerys' father, the later Jaehaerys II, because he chose to marry a woman who was considered to be unfit to become the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms (Jenny of Oldstones). Stannis could have supported Renly as Maester Aemon decided to support his younger brother, Aegon V.

Could one say Brienne should better have decided to not swear allegiance to Renly? Perhaps. But was she totally wrong there? No. Especially not considering that King Robert had made Renly Lord of Storm's End and was thus Brienne's legal liege. Pretty much all the Lords of the Reach and the Stormlands considered Renly to be 'the rightful king' prior to his death. That was nearly half the Realm.

[OldGimletEye]

<snip>

This is all a bunch of smoke and mirror horseshit to cloud the issue. It's not hard. If you accept that Robert B. was rightfully king and you accept his children were bastards, then you would have to conclude that Stannis was the lawful King, under the normal rules of succession. If you don't accept that Robert B was rightful king, then both Stannis and Renly were on an equal footing, being usurpers fighting for throne and neither was better than the other.

[White Harbors Wrath]

Is this guy mentally deficient? It's not a deflection, are you stupid mate? It's me pointing out what is likely a hypocritical stance you have. You're whining like a faggot because Stannis sacrificed his most beloved thing in this world because he believed the fate of the world rests upon his shoulders, at the same time you're likely one of those people who find it morally acceptable for Daenerys to torture an innocent to death for some information to solidify her rule over a city she conquered from its rightful inhabitants. It's not ''deflection'' because it's not about the characterization of Stannis on the TV-show, it's about you.

Did you just take a break from giving people wedgies in the locker room to post that? Another thread in the can lol.

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

I agree with everyone that sacrificing Shireen because of the weather was a joke. There was sufficient buildup of their dire circumstances in making the trek to Winterfell to make it remotely justifiable. In the book, his army was starving and there was cannibalism. The men were wanting to sacrifice Asha Greyjoy if my memory is correct.

[Truly Just Man]

Don't need to get rude, guys. Doesn't matter who do you like or dislike the most.

I hope we'll find soon enough what really (bookwise) happens to Stannis or whether he'll live in the show or he's dead. He looks as dead as Jon, Sansa, Myrcella, Catelyn, Hound etc, but we all know some of them are coming back.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

At least he was head-on in front of his own men against a 500 men cavalry, on foot with a sword... MANNIS even with character assassination

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

And so ends the House Baratheon...in the woods...in the snow...on its arse.

[ummester]

You guys are missing the point, Stannis just fulfilled another part of his prophecy to become Azor Ahai.

At first he went to temper Lightbringer in (the black)water but his attack was shattered.

Then he waited long and hard before making another attack, but again his steel were shattered (ok ok I have no idea who or what the lion that is supposed to get impaled is)

Then in he will drive Lightbringer into Selysse after she has burned Shireen at the wall unbeknownst to him.

I'm not sure if that's true - but it is interesting, the idea that Azor Ahai's blade failing is about him failing in battle, not his actual sword failing.

Selyse won't be his Nissa Nissa, Mel will - so the end makes sense. Tempering it in the (Black)water also makes a lot of sense.

It's the breaking it by stabbing a lion in the heart bit that doesn't make sense - the Bolton fight just doesn't seem to relate to this at all. It's made me want to twatch the episode agan though.

BTW, I've always thought Azor Ahai is a destroyer, not a savior and that all the prophecy has been misinterpreted.

[Lord Varys]

Well, but Stannis never had conclusive proof that Cersei's children are bastards, no? In that sense, Stannis is as much a usurper as Renly - we as readers know that Stannis is right about Cersei's children, but he himself doesn't know the truth. He is willing to kill the children his brother raised as his own simply because he believes they are not his. That is wrong, too.

Brienne believing that Renly was 'the rightful king' has no bearing on the question who 'the rightful king' actually is. Davos believing that Stannis is 'the rightful king' (or was, most likely, as there is a good chance that Davos will kill Stannis himself should he find out that Stannis survived and burned Shireen alive) doesn't make it so, either, as Davos is just believing what he believes is going to profit him the most (Stannis was the man who ennobled him, so he sticking to him).

From the Targaryen POV all Baratheons are usurpers, as Viserys III, Daenerys I, or Aegon VI are the true kings/queens, and pretty everyone outside the North or the Iron Islands considered Robb or Balon a traitorous rebel.

Renly and Stannis clearly had problems communicating - however, Stannis could have had the grace to give up his claim after realizing that nobody was supporting him. Stannis was never Robert's heir, nor was he groomed to rule. Renly had charisma and connections to compensate the fact that he had not the best claim, but it was Stannis' decision to go along with this 'I want to be king' thing. You can step down, you can abdicate, you can try to build a united front against your enemies. And who knows, considering Renly's sexuality Stannis' line could have inherited the throne after Renly's death if the brothers had reconciled - or Shireen could have been married to Renly's son and heir.

Pressing the issue against all odds is not 'doing your duty'. It is the prideful and arrogant/mad behaviour of somebody who actually wants to rule and enforce his will upon others. This is why this TV Stannis is becoming a walking joke in the last two episodes because he is becoming a caricature of himself in his inflexibility. The real Stannis can adapt to difficult situations, and would never have marched against Winterfell had he had as few men as Stannis had, nor would he have burned his only child to go through with a battle.

[OldGimletEye]

Well, but Stannis never had conclusive proof that Cersei's children are bastards, no? In that sense, Stannis is as much a usurper as Renly - we as readers know that Stannis is right about Cersei's children, but he himself doesn't know the truth. He is willing to kill the children his brother raised as his own simply because he believes they are not his. That is wrong, too.

Brienne believing that Renly was 'the rightful king' has no bearing on the question who 'the rightful king' actually is. Davos believing that Stannis is 'the rightful king' (or was, most likely, as there is a good chance that Davos will kill Stannis himself should he find out that Stannis survived and burned Shireen alive) doesn't make it so, either, as Davos is just believing what he believes is going to profit him the most (Stannis was the man who ennobled him, so he sticking to him).

From the Targaryen POV all Baratheons are usurpers, as Viserys III, Daenerys I, or Aegon VI are the true kings/queens, and pretty everyone outside the North or the Iron Islands considered Robb or Balon a traitorous rebel.

Renly and Stannis clearly had problems communicating - however, Stannis could have had the grace to give up his claim after realizing that nobody was supporting him. Stannis was never Robert's heir, nor was he groomed to rule. Renly had charisma and connections to compensate the fact that he had not the best claim, but it was Stannis' decision to go along with this 'I want to be king' thing. You can step down, you can abdicate, you can try to build a united front against your enemies. And who knows, considering Renly's sexuality Stannis' line could have inherited the throne after Renly's death if the brothers had reconciled - or Shireen could have been married to Renly's son and heir.

Pressing the issue against all odds is not 'doing your duty'. It is the prideful and arrogant/mad behaviour of somebody who actually wants to rule and enforce his will upon others. This is why this TV Stannis is becoming a walking joke in the last two episodes because he is becoming a caricature of himself in his inflexibility. The real Stannis can adapt to difficult situations, and would never have marched against Winterfell had he had as few men as Stannis had, nor would he have burned his only child to go through with a battle.

Just more smoke and mirrors. This idea of "well, everybody is right from their own POV" is just pure horsehit. Is Gregor Clegane right from his POV as well? I don't think so.

The bottom line here is that there is no way that Brienne could logically conclude that Renly's claim was better than Stannis'. I understand Brienne loved Renly and I can understand her hating Stannis to some extent. But killing him because he allegedly committed regicide his pure horsehit. And it's not justice. Just revenge for personal reasons.

ETA:

It would have been better if Brienne just said she was killing Stannis because she loved Renly. But, that whole I am killling you in the name of Renly, rightful king, is just a load of crap.

[Mithras]

D&D decided to destroy Stannis in an absurdly fast manner. There is no point in keeping him alive in the show at this point. D&D didnot show the beheading because they do not want to spoil that for the readers just like many other characters. This makes their comment about Shireen's book fate even more loathsome. They totally disrespected George and the readers there. They didnot have to tell that Shireen's death would happen in the books too. But they chose to blame George for their failure in handling the Stannis storyline.

[420faceless]

This show was the best because of the sheer Stannis fan butthurt