So he's gone? Dead? Not coming back?

[Maesteress]

One more comment because i am wordy: If Martin has altered his original story because people figured out his big secret, I will be VERY disappointed. THAT would ruin the whole thing for me.

I want the story that was promised.

Rest assured, he is not going to change his story. He says so VERY specifically here - that he won't let people who have figured out his clues CHANGE his plan for the story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQzCPf2NgwE (go to 3:00 mark)

[~DarkHorse~]

Season 6 episode 1 should start with Jon lying dying at the end of Mothers Mercy who is shortley found by either Mel,wildlings or Davos where the alarm will be raised,

the NW will come out to try and finish Jon off but the wildlings will protect Jon while Mel speaks to the dying Jon telling him to find Ghost, once Jons eyes go Warg

white she will repair his body while Jon goes a bit mental in Ghost, Jon will hear Bran talk to him telling him how to control ghost, once Jon controls ghost he'll

go after Thorne and finally kill him. Meanwhile Mel is working with her potions of funky stuff and Davos/Tormund will be trying to stop the blood to keep Jon's body alive.

After a while Jon will pop back into his body screaming while the wildlings are killing the rest of the NW leaving The Wildlings,Mel,Davos and Tormund at the Wall.

Jon will decide to go North to find Bran once fit enough and maybe we'll find out what happened to Benjen on the way. Once with Bran he'll find out

his true heritage from the time travelling weirwood and head back south to challenge for the Iron Throne ORRR maybe something compleltely different will happen,

who really knows??

But Jon was not dying at the end of the episode, he was dead. :crying:

The only way he can survive is resurrection at this point.

[Katjushka]

Jon is the only primary character the show has at the wall so it's hard to imagine him staying dead. Davos and Mel are there, sure.. Tormund could rise to be a great leader, yes. But none of them are primary characters and the wall will be the first stop the WW make on their way south so it's gonna be a big deal. the show needs a leading character there to lead the battle. Dany and Tyrion are too far and I can't see Sansa, Cersei or Arya leading the troops either. Jaime? Well maybe but a lot should happen before that. Bran? Basically yes but might be a bit of a buzzkill if the hero is just in a cave warging animals.

So I really can't see hi staying dead, no way.

[evetssteve10]

I really don't think they would wait to bring jon back Til season 7 that's way too long this isn't the same thing as bran who they put off for a year because he's not one of the biggest characters, although he's up there , just not at the level of Jon. And also because they were all caught up to brand book material they had to slow it down for him so they made room for other stuff while putting him on the back burner. Putting jon off Til seaaon 7 would almost be as bad writing as killing him for good

[Ghost_whisper]

But Jon was not dying at the end of the episode, he was dead. :crying:

The only way he can survive is resurrection at this point.

Was he Dead though? I think there's still time to save him. He didn't look dead just sort of chillaxed lol, if he died surely his head would've fallen to the side? he wouldn't be just lying there looking up at the stars. I dunno it's all guess work and speculation but I didn't think he was a goner there and then.

[ErasmusF]

Rest assured, he is not going to change his story. He says so VERY specifically here - that he won't let people who have figured out his clues CHANGE his plan for the story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQzCPf2NgwE (go to 3:00 mark)

I believe he's not going to change the ending but he is going to change how he gets there. It's like when you leave something on the floor in your living room and someone trips over it and says "Hey, I tripped over your skateboard you left in front of the door." And you say "I didn't leave that there" knowing neither of you believe it.

[Long Live The Onion King]

From the Entertainment Weekly article.

Any parting gifts like Rose got with her bow and arrow?
No! Rose got a f–king bow and arrow and I didn’t get shit!

Maybe he didn't get any parting gifts because he's not really parting. Pretty obvious:-)

[Many Faced Michael]

I believe he's not going to change the ending but he is going to change how he gets there. It's like when you leave something on the floor in your living room and someone trips over it and says "Hey, I tripped over your skateboard you left in front of the door." And you say "I didn't leave that there" knowing neither of you believe it.

Nailed it. I think he knows how the story ends, but not the means in which he's going to get there. To me, if they bring back Jon he's just going to die again somewhere along the way. My hope is that they try to bring him back and it fails... totally trolling all Jon fans. Kill the squirrel and then throw it in reverse to make sure it's dead. That'd be a solid ending to the first episode next season.

[libertylanding]

Plenty of "dragons" burn. Settled years ago.

Gosh, if only there were some memorable precedent on the show of a Targaryen emerging unburnt from a funeral pyre to which reference could usefully be made, in preference to obscure Westerosi history unknown to show-watchers who are, after all, the target audience of this subforum.

:dunno:

[Chebyshov]

One more comment because i am wordy: If Martin has altered his original story because people figured out his big secret, I will be VERY disappointed. THAT would ruin the whole thing for me.

I want the story that was promised.

See this is my issue with every framing of this conversation. R+L=J isn't this "zomg big secret."

Like, it's not super explicit, okay. But it kind of reminds me of Dumbledore/Grindelwald where on first read you may not see it, but on reread it’s totally there, to the point where you can’t believe you missed it. And like understanding the romantic nature of the Dumbledore/Grindelwald relationship, knowing R+L=J majorly enhances the narrative.

It’s not like some big “whodunnit?” puzzle for the readers to solve. It is an element of the narrative: one that is thematically central to Ned’s story, as well as potentially significant for [book!]Jon’s role moving forward. The latter is something we can only guess at, but the former…it’s about Ned’s internal vs. external honor. This secret was killing him, but he knew it was the right thing to do despite the fact that it besmirched his honor and caused strife with Catelyn. And then Ned poetically does the exact same thing to save Sansa, which ultimately is what kills him (it’s also worth noting there are major parallels between Lyanna and both Stark girls).

Ned’s AGOT narrative is like, ALL about this, too. His arc was never a simplistic “honor gets you killed,” which are the words that D&D put into the mouth of Stannis this season. And R+L=J's treatment on the show is so indicative of their simplistic understanding of things too. Have Littlefinger randomly talk about it in S5? Okay.

When Martin was quizzing them to see if they were worthy adapters, he asked D&D who Jon Snow’s mother was. To Martin, he was making sure they were astute readers, and given the thematic significance of R+L=J, it seems like a relatively “literary” question to ask. D&D got it right (and I mean…okay; Martin’s publisher also got it right on her first read through AGOT alone), and I think for them, they were really proud of themselves for having “figured it out.”

But it's clear D&D like ASOIAF for the “twists." They said the Red Wedding was the scene they couldn’t wait to bring to screen. That they couldn’t believe it when they read it (there is clear foreshadowing, but it’s also a pointed subversion of tropes and expectations). And their portrayal of the Red Wedding demonstrated this completely. They made Robb’s downfall be because of love rather than honor (the latter of which poetically tied back into Ned’s arc and was maybe like, the point or something), showing they didn’t care about the themes (or understand them)…just the moment of “OMG what happened!” Fuck, they even knocked up Talisa and brought her along to get stabbed in the stomach just for the extra shock.

So to them, I believe they view R+L=J is another “crazy twist” or “central mystery” of the books, when in reality it’s just an element of the narrative that isn’t spelled out. And it’s not spelled out because literally only Ned knows (and frankly he almost outright states it in his fever dream)…and Howland Reed who hasn’t appeared on page. For that reason, R+L=J is Ned’s story to tell, in many ways.

D&D purposely omitted the “clues” from Season 1 that should have been there. And by that I mean Ned’s fever dream, though if they were willing to explicate “the moment all smiles died,” then he should have fucking said it and not Littlefinger of all people. But D&D didn’t do it because they didn’t want people to know in Season 1. Why? Like…so what if people know?

THIS is why context matters. What they were hiding from us in Season 1 wasn’t some mystery that would ruin the plot; it was a theme and an element that only would have enhanced it. And clearly that’s something they never did, and never will understand.

So I guess my point is that there's no way in hell Martin is going to alter his story, and even if it doesn't end up affecting Jon. Even if Jon really stays dead on the page. Because its thematic significance in Ned's arc stands on its own.

Will Jon stay dead on page and/or on-screen? :dunno: But I really don't think we should take our cues from this show to make any guesses about that.

[Pangaea]

For all the talk of Jon being dead or not, check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfvVluNxujc

Go to 22:00 and listen. Not exactly sure what the Dumb/Dumber guy says, but there is a mention of "Season 6"....

[Airemyn]

That was some pretty brutal and wooden stabbing which kind of seems to contradict the books (why am I surprised...?) - the slashing to start with and then the plunging of the knives is a lot more realistic. It really did remind me of the Airplane scene, it was bloody ridiculous.

Anyway, it's obvious that Jon is coming back in some way or another, whether it's through Ghost and the old gods (my belief for the books) or Melisansbra's tits (my belief for the show).

[Many Faced Michael]

Is it ridiculous to start reading the books when the next one comes out? As in start on the new book.

[~DarkHorse~]

I really don't think they would wait to bring jon back Til season 7 that's way too long this isn't the same thing as bran who they put off for a year because he's not one of the biggest characters, although he's up there , just not at the level of Jon. And also because they were all caught up to brand book material they had to slow it down for him so they made room for other stuff while putting him on the back burner. Putting jon off Til seaaon 7 would almost be as bad writing as killing him for good

:agree:

I can't see them leaving him out for a whole season either. So many unsullied are already saying they won't watch the show if he doesn't come back. There are supposedly only another 2-3 seasons so Jon missing one and then turning up as a major player in the next would feel cheap. Jon is a bigger character than Bran was. He might have less screen time if he is healing but I can't see him being gone for a whole season. He also won't be resurrected in the season finale because allot of time would have passed and his body would have been burned or turned into a wight.

Personally, I think Jon will play a large role in Season 6. Now with Stannis gone, the Northern storyline could use a protagonist against the Boltons (who will surely be peeved with the Wildlings in their Kingdom....?)

Was he Dead though? I think there's still time to save him. He didn't look dead just sort of chillaxed lol, if he died surely his head would've fallen to the side? he wouldn't be just lying there looking up at the stars. I dunno it's all guess work and speculation but I didn't think he was a goner there and then.

There was too much blood for him to have survived that. He was stabbed multiple times with long daggers and Olly's blow just sealed the deal. FTW seems less fatal in the books but the show made a point to have him dead. Even the directors have said he is dead (which I believe but I don't think he will stay dead).

Also, I think having him killed is a plot device to free him from his vows.

crackpot (so far fetched but still):

The end credits song was called "Throne for the Game" just after FTW. The song name is very random and has no direct relevance to the episode like other end credit songs ( "mysha" in season 3 and "The Children" in season 4 were named after the episode) but it sounded like an extension to the end scene, rather than the episode as a whole. It was very much Jon's funeral tune so to speak. Maybe, the random song title has a hidden meaning? You need to have a Throne (claim) to play the Game of Thrones and now that Jon's "watch has ended" any claim he might have is no longer denied by his vows. His death was necessary so he can have a "Throne for the game."

[Sasha Steelsong]

I really don't think they would wait to bring jon back Til season 7 that's way too long this isn't the same thing as bran who they put off for a year because he's not one of the biggest characters, although he's up there , just not at the level of Jon. And also because they were all caught up to brand book material they had to slow it down for him so they made room for other stuff while putting him on the back burner. Putting jon off Til seaaon 7 would almost be as bad writing as killing him for good

Actually I think the reason Bran wasn't in this season is that it looks like his story from this point forward is looking into the past and the future and seeing what's going on around Westeros. If that's the case than including him in this season could have potentially spoiled a lot.

Looking back on the season as a whole it really seems like they were giving GRRM a chance to finish the book before getting too into uncharted territory - with the exception of Sansa's story which was obviously changed but ended in almost the same place as the story she was pushed into, and Myrcella/Jamie which was so different (but I honestly don't feel like Myrcella's likely death was too much of a giveaway), we aren't really that much further than the end of ADWD. Stannis is likely dead but maybe not, Jon by all appearances is dead, Cersei is awaiting trial, Arya is blind and sort of played out the bits of the story that happen afterwards in the books, all of that is pretty much where we as readers left off.

[ShadowKitteh]

'He always comes back'

'Only death can pay for life'

Your two big honking clues from the last 3 episodes right there

and.... "Kill the boy, and let the man be born."

They named an episode for this line. Jon isn't going anywhere.

The night is dark and full of ninjas. :ninja:

That's me. Always late to the party. :huh:

[jon316]

Jon snow is trapped in ghost DB Weiss said so after having a few drinks https://youtu.be/mVzhcD1LdfA

[aFeastForDragons]

Is it ridiculous to start reading the books when the next one comes out? As in start on the new book.

Yes! Terrible idea.

The opening chapter is Theon I believe. You are going to read about a very very very different Stannis who is in a very different position before the Battle of Ice. Nevermind tons of characters and plots you aren't going to have a clue about.

Start with book 1 and go from there.

[Maesteress]

Yes! Terrible idea.

The opening chapter is Theon I believe. You are going to read about a very very very different Stannis who is in a very different position before the Battle of Ice. Nevermind tons of characters and plots you aren't going to have a clue about.

Start with book 1 and go from there.

Agreed - you will be completely lost, especially with the Dorne and Greyjoy/Iron Islands arcs. Start with the first book and go from there - you will NOT regret it! :)

[ShadowKitteh]

Well I am watching Narnia just because it is on. Aslan has just been resurrected and says something like: when a true heart is killed instead of the true traitor: i.e. Stannis: they aren't really dead.

But even so, if Jon comes back in some other body, I am going to hate, hate it.

They did say he won't be in season 6; they didn't say anything about 7.

Damn if this makes no sense at all.

Think about it this way: You're planning a surprise party for one of your best friends, who loves being surprised, and rarely is. It's IMPERATIVE that it's a surprise. Would you lie to keep the surprise, even if asked directly ("what are you doing on Saturday?") from the person who the surprise is for?

I would in a heartbeat. The payoff from giving your friend the thrill of a great surprise is well worth it.