Did Stannis even have a chance? (Spoilers)

[Stannis is the man....nis]

Show Stannis was doomed the moment he treacherously killed his own brother.

You mean the same brother who was pretty much planning on killing him?

[TickTak7]

It was painful to watch, from start to finish, I agree, the only thing worth watching was the actor, Stephen Dillane giving the character some dignity in his final moments. As usual, Brienne was a one-note brute.

Dillane was outstanding, and made show Stannis infinity more interesting than book Stannis.

I like Brienne's character - think you are being a bit harsh on her regarding being "one-note". We just didn't see enough of her character to really flesh out her role this season (a criticism that was applicable to quite a few this season).

[Blackwater Saint]

What I especially disliked about it all was that Stannis' cavalry and half his army was gone, okay, but are we to believe that Ramsay knew this? If he didn't, he should have expected a surprise attack out of the woods by the cavalry and maybe wouldn't have led such a bold charge into what he should have thought was only a percentage of a superior force.

I don't know. The whole thing seemed sort of silly. Stannis lacking any scouts at all seemed perhaps the worst part of it though. He should have had sight of enemy troop movements if he was any sort of competent commander at all.

I don't think any of it mattered. The Boltons had way more than 2000 men. How does a cut-rate bannerman get that many men after Robb Stark called all his bannermen. More sloppy writing in a very sloppy season.

[Tyrion's Double Axe]

I think the Boltons played their hand perfectly. It was Roose's instinct to let Stannis' Army suffer in the cold, deplete their morale and numbers. Ramsay dealt a mortal blow to the Stannis troops with the daring hit and run raid, which pushed Stannis to commit the terrible sin of sacrificing his child to the burning stake. In Greek mythology, this would earn you a big fat curse of the gods. Whatever gods Stannis prayed to--if any--before Melisandre was in the picture, they abandoned him to his miserable fate.

In the end, his blindness, greed, obsession for power, the Iron Throne, and the kinslaying of little Shireen did him in. Also his inability to listen to any warning, alternate course of action, from Davos, his sub commanders. He was so wrapped up in his megalomaniac thoughts, he didn't even realize his peril--one of his soldiers, who realized then what his general did not, grimly informs him they are about to be slaughtered. Finally Stannis gets it, literally and symbolically: his peril and his destruction.

When the Boltons sprang their trap, it was over. Sansa Stark looking out the tower window could see this. That Bolton cavalry charge was for keeps, all the marbles, their mission to leave no Stannis trooper standing.

Give dark grudging credit to the Boltons for wiping out the alleged greatest commander in Westeros.

Tyrion's Double Axe

"From the Night's Watch Library....."

[Sir popelor]

Brienne has no authority for killing Stannis there, and she has to make public the confession that The Mannis gave to her, else she will always be blamed for Renly's killing... she will probably capture him to give him a public execution at KL, or for someone else.

So... no, I don't think Stannis is doomed yet.

[Alex]

See bolded.

I thought attacking Winterfell in the winter was suicidal. It didn't matter whether he won or not, he was automatically sacrificing his army, because he would have no chance of getting it out of there in the winter and, without any supplies laid in, the army would surely starve.

It's exactly what he did in the book, despite winning some Nothern lords, sending Davos to White Harbor etc. He took his army to Winterfell and got stuck in the snow with no hope of resupplying. His only hope of winning in the books is if the Nothern lords would betray the Boltons (which is what will probably happen). The TV series showed a much more realistic outcome of Stannis' situation.

[Dayne's Sword]

I think it was pretty horrible writing to be honest and find the whole way it was done was completely laughable.

hell yeah. Anyone with an ounce of tactical knowledge from model wargaming or studying of historical campaigns would be face palming. i dlove to hear what a lecturer at sandhurst or west point would say on that.

[Marcus Agrippa]

If renly would have killed Stannis I wonder what people's reaction would have been? I have complained enough about the writing this season. D and D suck at story telling. SImple as that. We all knew Stannis was going to die in the books. However, there is still two problems with this- one is mels vision. "You will betray everyone you love and it will be worth it". ALso, the vision of Stannis on the throne. Granted, they did forget about cerseis child with robert which was something I didn't approve of. Still, it is the best show on television currently. (that I have seen)

[Blackwater Saint]

You mean the same brother who was pretty much planning on killing him?

In the show, Renly made clear he was going to kill him? Where?

[Hodor's Dragon]

It's exactly what he did in the book, despite winning some Nothern lords, sending Davos to White Harbor etc. He took his army to Winterfell and got stuck in the snow with no hope of resupplying. His only hope of winning in the books is if the Nothern lords would betray the Boltons (which is what will probably happen). The TV series showed a much more realistic outcome of Stannis' situation.

Well yeah, and I think the exact same thing in the books. It pretty much can't end well for Stannis, whether the pink letter is true or not.

[Eddy1]

Stannis was finished the moment he lost the Battle of Blackwater. He was reliant on Sellswords from then on, and he never had a realistic chance of capturing Winterfell.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Nope, and unlike GRRM the show-runners didn't even try and hide it. Book battle of Winterfell is balanced on a knife edge, show battle of Winterfell was a slaughter.

I guess this means that my fear of this story becoming one about a Stark/Targ revenge/restoration is coming true, since the other players that are not willing to play second fiddle are slowly being weaned out. Stannis can't free Winterfell, its gotta be baby Rickon or Jon Snuuuuh

[Lady Blackmont]

Right, because good battle commanders lead from the front.

Stannis would totally just "expect" the Boltons to be hiding in Winterfell. Because that's what the best commander in Westeros does.

[Lord Giggles]

In medieval warfare, the majority of battle commanders led from the front, where they could be SEEN to be still be alive and fighting with their men, which helped boost the morale of the levies they were commanding. Admittedly they couldn't direct battles as well from the front, but then once the armies were committed, there was a limit to what he would've been able to do anyway. Also, Alexander the Great, one of the most successful commanders of all time, always led from the front.

Stannis has no reason not to expect the Boltons to be in Winterfell. The Boltons don't know that his cavalry and the sellswords have deserted him, meaning that coming out to fight him would be a reckless move on the Boltons part and Roose Bolton, while many things, is not reckless.

[A Ghost of Someone]

In the show universe, Stannis was a loose end that they sped forward to cut off. Such potential. Another show Littlefinger blunder. He promissed Sansa too, that Stannis would come, win and save her which was another reason for her to decide to stay and potentially marry Ramsay. She saw the battle from the collapsed tower. Another lie to her. I had hopped Stannis would bleed the Boltons but I have no idea how much. Stannis, after 4 seasons of build up, was deflated in less than 5 minutes. Brienne actually gave him a mercy killing.

[Desert Fox]

Book Stannis is preparing for a battle at Crofters Village right? With a Fray and Mannerly army approaching? Stannis has to win that battle. And then still go seige winterfell filled with Bolton men behind a great castle. And Stannis's army is already resorting to cannibalism. And winter is coming.

I dunno how he expects to win. I'm not sure he could win.

My guess is Stannis wins the first battle but is still snowed in and starving. Mel, his wife and daughter show up after leaving the Wall after FTW and the pursuing fight. Shareen burning. Snow melts and then he loses trying to take Winterfell.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Book Stannis is preparing for a battle at Crofters Village right? With a Fray and Mannerly army approaching? Stannis has to win that battle. And then still go seige winterfell filled with Bolton men behind a great castle. And Stannis's army is already resorting to cannibalism. And winter is coming.

I dunno how he expects to win. I'm not sure he could win.

My guess is Stannis wins the first battle but is still snowed in and starving. Mel, his wife and daughter show up after leaving the Wall after FTW and the pursuing fight. Shareen burning. Snow melts and then he loses trying to take Winterfell.

Book Stannis is actully in a very strong defensive possition and it appears that he is going to bleed the Boltons and their allies for all he can. Stannis may not win the battle but the Bolton forces, not including Manderly who will not support Bolton once outside Winterfell will be so diminished, they will have to lock themselves in Winterfell and hope the elements eliminates all would be siegers.

Note, the tip off message from Jon about the Karstarks helped Stannis as the heads of their forces were either killed or imprisoned and their men will fight for Stannis so he gets them anyway and Roose thinks they will fight for him. HEH, HEH

[Desert Fox]

Book Stannis is actully in a very strong defensive possition and it appears that he is going to bleed the Boltons and their allies for all he can. Stannis may not win the battle but the Bolton forces, not including Manderly who will not support Bolton once outside Winterfell will be so diminished, they will have to lock themselves in Winterfell and hope the elements eliminates all would be siegers.

Note, the tip off message from Jon about the Karstarks helped Stannis as the heads of their forces were either killed or imprisoned and their men will fight for Stannis so he gets them anyway and Roose thinks they will fight for him. HEH, HEH

I think I'd agree that he'll win the battle at Crofters Village. Maybe without losing many men. Hell if the Manderlys betray the Frays maybe his army actually grows.

But so what. He still can't take Winterfell. He'll have to camp out in the winter cold. With no food or supplies. His men are already eating each other. How can you siege like that? Bolton only has to outlast him. Unless someone opens the gates of Winterfell, Stannis has zero hope.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

You mean the same brother who was pretty much planning on killing him?

Renly and Stannis should have met in battle and the victor would be a fair contender, that would not be a sly, underhanded murder, which is what Stannis did instead and hence he was doomed for his dishonour. Show Stannis has been honourably acted by Dillane but has acted dishonourably more than once to say the least. He had to go.

[Lady Blackmont]

In medieval warfare, the majority of battle commanders led from the front, where they could be SEEN to be still be alive and fighting with their men, which helped boost the morale of the levies they were commanding. Admittedly they couldn't direct battles as well from the front, but then once the armies were committed, there was a limit to what he would've been able to do anyway. Also, Alexander the Great, one of the most successful commanders of all time, always led from the front.

Stannis has no reason not to expect the Boltons to be in Winterfell. The Boltons don't know that his cavalry and the sellswords have deserted him, meaning that coming out to fight him would be a reckless move on the Boltons part and Roose Bolton, while many things, is not reckless.

It sure sounds nice in fantasy, but it is only that.

You know what happened to Alexander? He died. Very Young. Albeit not from battle, but if he had continued to wage war, he certainly would have.

Putting your king at the front of battle makes absolutely no sense. Particularly one without heirs. If your leader is a good tactician, you will want him directing the battle, not risking his life. What do you think the life expectancy is for warlords who lead from the front? Two battles? Three? A dozen if they're extremely lucky and have good bodyguards?

Professional soldiers, even peasant levies, are usually more concerned with their compatriots than some leadership figure. Battle is far too hectic to stop and try to find that one person, particularly in large engagements. Also, the idea that having someone leading the charge inspires troops to new heights is somewhat true, but leading from the rear also often has this effect, as long as the commander is visible. Ever heard of Stonewall Jackson? He led one of the most successful divisions in the Civil war. He never fired a rifle during his time in command.

Napoleon, Edward I, Erwin Rommel, William the Conqueror, Genghis Khan, Hannibal, Julius Caesar, Cyrus, Zhukov not one ever participated directly in battle.

Many fantasy books like to portray the perfect figure at the frontline, leading their men to victory in shining armor. It's a beautiful image, but a contrived one.