A Pregnant Sansa

[Colonel Green]

This partly got transferred onto Lysa by the time Martin got to finishing the book, but the fact that it was the original track of the character, it's not so wholly inconceivable that at the very least Sansa dealing with pregnancy is a potential future for her.

While that does have some similarity to Lysa's story, I wouldn't say it was "transferred". Sansa having a kid was part of her choosing the Lannisters over the Starks; we got a seriously, seriously watered-down version of that story already (where, among other things, the choice was mainly about her being willfully deceived instead of what sounds like a very deliberate and sustained course of action in the original).

With that said, if Harry does knock up Sansa in the books (and dies shortly thereafter), and the pregnancy is carried to term, TV Sansa needs a babydaddy as well.

I'd add a significant caveat there: the writers' approach to the show is very heavy on plot points over other considerations. As you note, a half-Bolton baby is not heir to anything other than the Dreadfort, whereas a half-Hardyng baby is the key to power in the Vale. If that's why the baby is important, it's questionable how much the show even needs it anymore, particularly when, as you note, Sansa having her Bolton rapist's baby is such a radically different story it's not even really comparable at all beyond "Sansa has a baby".

Anyway, regarding the original issue, I think it's highly unlikely there are going to be any pregnancies carried to term in the main action of the series, for any of the female characters, out of pacing/time considerations. Sansa may well be a mother in an epilogue or whatever, but not before.

[Pc2004]

Regarding possibly being pregnant but not carrying to term, do we all tend to think the show would openly bring abortion into play?? Obviously it's been mentioned with cersei and lysa but has not been seen or brought to the forefront. Sansa being with baby Bolton and taking tansy or moon tea or whatever mixture to abort the baby would def be something to tread lightly with in my opinion. Could be highly controversial for sure.

[Colonel Green]

Regarding possibly being pregnant but not carrying to term, do we all tend to think the show would openly bring abortion into play?? Obviously it's been mentioned with cersei and lysa but has not been seen or brought to the forefront. Sansa being with baby Bolton and taking tansy or moon tea or whatever mixture to abort the baby would def be something to tread lightly with in my opinion. Could be highly controversial for sure.

Even fundamentalists tend to tiptoe around abortion in relation to rape/incest, so I don't think that would be overly controversial if it happened.

[WhitewolfStark]

I don't think she's still legally married to Tyrion, although I'm not familiar with the annullment process(doesn't a Septon have to do it?). And even if she was, Tyrion's not around to do anything about it and I don't think the Boltons care one way or the other. But it's a moot point now since Sansa escaped and if she gets away completely and suspects she is pregnant and somehow gets the means to, she'll probably abort it.

I kind of hope she isn't pregnant, it will certainly complicate things more than they already are.

I believe it has to be the High Septon, as it was in Medieval times that only the Pope could grant dispensations, though he'd have his Legate grant dispensations pro temparum until the Pope himself could weigh on the matter. And yes it matters if it's the High Septon considering Sansa married Tyrion in the religion of the Seven.

[Tyrion's Double Axe]

Don't mean to go too ob/gyn here, but if Sansa is pregnant, she'd better be pregnant right now, since there are only 2 seasons, 20 episodes left. Unless Westeros has different rules, she'll need nine months to deliver. Exceptions, premature baby or tragically, a miscarriage.

I hope the latter does not happen as I am a Sansa sympathizer as I feel she has suffered enough and hit rock bottom ((no pun intended, given her and Theon's leap of faith into the snow.))

So you will need how many episodes to have her realize she is pregnant and deliver? This is where screenwriters start to compress and fiddle around with timelines for stories--in the 9 months she is pregnant, what happens to everyone else on their timelines, hers??

And obviously she needs a safe haven to let nature take its course--fleeing from war, the Ramsay re-capture party, possibly Wildling,Walker types not the heathliest activity for a young mom to be.

If she is pregnant, with a healthy outcome by the Old Gods and the New, I can't see it unfolding in anything less than nearly a full season 6.

Does this take too long, put her out of the running for other drama possibilities?? Would be a better story for her to flee, survive, team up with Brienne/Podrick/Theon and form a little band to soldier on, and find out who her allies will be. The North looks pretty awful right now, the South no better for her.

Is the Vale the only option and how will she get there? "Run Sansa Run!!"

Tyrion's Double Axe, thanks, regards,

"From the Night's Watch Library....."

[Colonel Green]

I believe it has to be the High Septon, as it was in Medieval times that only the Pope could grant dispensations, though he'd have his Legate grant dispensations pro temparum until the Pope himself could weigh on the matter. And yes it matters if it's the High Septon considering Sansa married Tyrion in the religion of the Seven.

In the books, yes, an annulment is required from the High Septon.

In the show, Littlefinger explicitly said that, due to non-consummation, Sansa is not married to Tyrion, and is free to marry whomever she wants with no further complications.

[FreeParking]

I believe it has to be the High Septon, as it was in Medieval times that only the Pope could grant dispensations, though he'd have his Legate grant dispensations pro temparum until the Pope himself could weigh on the matter. And yes it matters if it's the High Septon considering Sansa married Tyrion in the religion of the Seven.

As an aside, this season made me wonder why the Northerners even care what the pope of a different religion says when it comes to annulments in Westeros. It seems like in a case like the Tyrion/Sansa marriage, the North could easily come up with the argument that it doesn't count because it was done under the wrong religion. Realistically I imagine a lot of fuckery could be played with if the North just wanted to ignore that marriage. I think it is probably just one of the things you shouldn't think about too much in the books.

[jarl the climber]

As an aside, this season made me wonder why the Northerners even care what the pope of a different religion says when it comes to annulments in Westeros. It seems like in a case like the Tyrion/Sansa marriage, the North could easily come up with the argument that it doesn't count because it was done under the wrong religion. Realistically I imagine a lot of fuckery could be played with if the North just wanted to ignore that marriage. I think it is probably just one of the things you shouldn't think about too much in the books.

Littlefinger and Bolton both considered the marriage to Tyrion as a non issue because it was not consumated. Maybe the new screwy fundamentalist High Septon will make a stink about it but I'm not sure what he can do about it as long as she stays in the North.

[FreeParking]

Don't mean to go too ob/gyn here, but if Sansa is pregnant, she'd better be pregnant right now, since there are only 2 seasons, 20 episodes left. Unless Westeros has different rules, she'll need nine months to deliver. Exceptions, premature baby or tragically, a miscarriage.

I hope the latter does not happen as I am a Sansa sympathizer as I feel she has suffered enough and hit rock bottom ((no pun intended, given her and Theon's leap of faith into the snow.))

So you will need how many episodes to have her realize she is pregnant and deliver? This is where screenwriters start to compress and fiddle around with timelines for stories--in the 9 months she is pregnant, what happens to everyone else on their timelines, hers??

And obviously she needs a safe haven to let nature take its course--fleeing from war, the Ramsay re-capture party, possibly Wildling,Walker types not the heathliest activity for a young mom to be.

If she is pregnant, with a healthy outcome by the Old Gods and the New, I can't see it unfolding in anything less than nearly a full season 6.

Does this take too long, put her out of the running for other drama possibilities?? Would be a better story for her to flee, survive, team up with Brienne/Podrick/Theon and form a little band to soldier on, and find out who her allies will be. The North looks pretty awful right now, the South no better for her.

Is the Vale the only option and how will she get there? "Run Sansa Run!!"

Tyrion's Double Axe, thanks, regards,

"From the Night's Watch Library....."

It is important to note the the show's passage of time is different than the books'. This is mostly because the kids won't stop growing. At least three years have passed since the beginning of the show, possibly four now that we are through season five. This leads to anomalies like Gilly's baby not growing, but that is a necessary evil since the Stark kids' ages are more important than little Sam's.

I am confident in saying that we will never see the Vale again. We will see the characters, but only once they pop up in the North. As you say, how would Sansa run all the way to the Vale? Plus they had Littlefinger getting permission to take the Vale army into the North, and Sansa learned that Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. I think it is safe to say that Castle Black will be Sansa and Theon's destination early on in the season. Whether or not that they get there, who knows.

[FreeParking]

Littlefinger and Bolton both considered the marriage to Tyrion as a non issue because it was not consumated. Maybe the new screwy fundamentalist High Septon will make a stink about it but I'm not sure what he can do about it as long as she stays in the North.

I meant from the books' perspective.

[jarl the climber]

I meant from the books' perspective.

In the books its very clear that being wed by a Septon is valid in the North. Ned and Cat were married by a Septon. Some of the Northern Lord worship the 7 and they intermarry with the others who do not. It would be impolitic to just consider the marriage invalid without following the proper procedure. Your children could be considered bastards, you could be charged with bigamy and/or adultery. In other words what Bolton and Littlefinger did in the TV show doesn't seem like it would fly in the books.

[ummester]

If the jump didn't make the need for moon tea redundant and Sansa keeps a Bolton child - could that child unite the North in a way never seen before, by giving the Boltons and Starks a common figurehead to rally behind?

Perhaps it would be in LFs best 'conquer all with chaos' interests to off Roose and Ramsey but promote that Sansa keep the offspring and then, when the child is born, off Sansa also. LF could then have the childish Lord of the Vale and infant Lord of the North in his pocket.

[FreeParking]

In the books its very clear that being wed by a Septon is valid in the North. Ned and Cat were married by a Septon. Some of the Northern Lord worship the 7 and they intermarry with the others who do not. It would be impolitic to just consider the marriage invalid without following the proper procedure. Your children could be considered bastards, you could be charged with bigamy and/or adultery. In other words what Bolton and Littlefinger did in the TV show doesn't seem like it would fly in the books.

Impolitic? The series routinely shows that people ignore conventions when it is convenient for them. Stannis had the rightful claim on the Iron Throne, but people ignored it. You shouldn't kill people after you share bread and salt with them, but people ignored it. You shouldn't pass off a person as having a rightful claim to a seat (fArya plot in the books), but people ignored it. I seem to recall that when Ramsay forced the Hornwood marriage that we were told that he had a Septon and did it in front of a weirwood so Ramsay could cover all of his bases in regards to legitimacy. Why would he need to do that if people never tried to contest the legitimacy of a marriage? Simply put I don't buy that people would never try to mess around with the legitimacy of marriages. The characters constantly bend the rules when it suits them, and this seems like a prime area where that could be done.

If the jump didn't make the need for moon tea redundant and Sansa keeps a Bolton child - could that child unite the North in a way never seen before, by giving the Boltons and Starks a common figurehead to rally behind?

Perhaps it would be in LFs best 'conquer all with chaos' interests to off Roose and Ramsey but promote that Sansa keep the offspring and then, when the child is born, off Sansa also. LF could then have the childish Lord of the Vale and infant Lord of the North in his pocket.

Walda's kid would also have to be knocked off. And why would LF kill Sansa? He thinks that she is on his side, or at least he seems to.

[ummester]

Walda's kid would also have to be knocked off. And why would LF kill Sansa? He thinks that she is on his side, or at least he seems to.

True about the Bolton/Frey infant.

Re LF knocking Sansa off - if you are LF, you don't want a mother's love for her child interfering with your plans for world domination via that and other heirs, do you?

[Woman of War]

In the books, yes, an annulment is required from the High Septon.

In the show, Littlefinger explicitly said that, due to non-consummation, Sansa is not married to Tyrion, and is free to marry whomever she wants with no further complications.

And Baelish could be very wrong, given that the new de facto High Septon takes rules very seriously. He may be a dangerous religious fundamentalist but here this approach might turn out as useful, freeing Sansa from the Bolton marriage. This septon may insist, totally against Baelish's expectations, that Sansa is still married to Tyrion. And non-consummation may be easy to fake, every midwife would know how but the marriage, or not-marriage in that case, to Ramsay is known to have been consummated.

So that would make a possible child a bastard.

But Ramsay will be taken out of the equation anyways in tv sooner or later since he will hardly survive the series, probably not even season 6. And what then? In the books bigamist Sansa's - if Sansa marries Harry - possible child would be Tyrion's by law, if Tyrion does not deny it. And the way Martin has characterized him he might be willing to take some responsibility for bastards........

In the show this child would be Ramsay's legitimate child if the marriage is valid. But if the High Septon interferes we would be back to the book situation I just described above.

That would make Baelish look like a political idiot unable to evaluate a situation for the second time. First misjudging the nature of Ramsay, then underestimating the upcoming fundamentalism.

[lakin1013]

I hope the latter does not happen as I am a Sansa sympathizer as I feel she has suffered enough and hit rock bottom ((no pun intended, given her and Theon's leap of faith into the snow.))

Due to the time constraints of a pregnancy, as shared by Tyrion's Little Axe, I do not think the show can have Sansa pregnant, at least I hope not.

BUT Sansa took a leap of faith into (the) snow Snow and is on her way to Castle Black. I simply had not looked at it quite that literally but it works.

[Colonel Green]

And Baelish could be very wrong, given that the new de facto High Septon takes rules very seriously.

But there's nothing to indicate Baelish is depending on lax scripture, or whatever. He straight-up says Sansa and Tyrion are not married anymore, and Roose, the person who raised the issue of the validity of the marriage, instantly takes the news that it was unconsummated as satisfaction of his question. Nobody has raised the idea that there's some formal rule requiring annulment.

It would be extremely cheap to pull that out of nowhere at this point, so it's safe to say it doesn't exist in the show.*

* Even though they wrote one of Lysa's lines in season 4 as if it did. Oops.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Flip a coin as to whether Sansa is pregnant or not. We know that they are casting 7 month old baby boy for the Winterfell/Northern area setting for next season, 6. Sam and Gilly are headed to Oldtown. That leaves Fat Walda most likely having the Bolton Boy but leaves the possibility, although, somewhat unlikely that Sansa has a baby.

[WhitewolfStark]

But there's nothing to indicate Baelish is depending on lax scripture, or whatever. He straight-up says Sansa and Tyrion are not married anymore, and Roose, the person who raised the issue of the validity of the marriage, instantly takes the news that it was unconsummated as satisfaction of his question. Nobody has raised the idea that there's some formal rule requiring annulment.

It would be extremely cheap to pull that out of nowhere at this point, so it's safe to say it doesn't exist in the show.*

* Even though they wrote one of Lysa's lines in season 4 as if it did. Oops.

Which is why I take issue with the show playing fast and loose with certain things.

[Newstar]

Flip a coin as to whether Sansa is pregnant or not. We know that they are casting 7 month old baby boy for the Winterfell/Northern area setting for next season, 6. Sam and Gilly are headed to Oldtown. That leaves Fat Walda most likely having the Bolton Boy but leaves the possibility, although, somewhat unlikely that Sansa has a baby.

For that to happen, the show would have to vault ahead about 16 months, which is unlikely.

With that said, I think there's an outside chance that Sansa could get pregnant and have the child all within the space of one book. GRRM said something at one point I believe about certain individual TWOW chapters covering larger blocks of time. If that's the case, the cumulative effect might be a big leap forward time-wise, which could easily cover an entire pregnancy.

I agree that Lysa's line about Sansa being free to remarry once Tyrion is executed is completely at odds with what happens in Season 5, but eh, the writers have made similar mistakes before.