R+L=J v.146

[MtnLion]

I think the app is subjective because imo it was written with an RLJ bias. But no matter, Mtn Lion, you're probably correct.

Oh, so instead of "subjective accounts" you meant biased statements. I do not see any RLJ bias in that statement, it simply states that two Kingsguard were with Rhaegar when he "abducted" Lyanna, which is in canon.

[Shiny!!]

Oh, so instead of "subjective accounts" you meant biased statements.

How can this apps provide bias if creation exclusively of GRRM? GRRM created his official apps and presents readers with his truths. He cannot fit all his ideas in books if he has so many. He gifts us his extra facts in the big book and application for helping us in completing his mysteries.

[stateofdissipation]

Dates:

It makes no sense to assume Selmy's mind referred to the stuff somebody told him in any literal sense. If I tell you something, you memorize the information, not the words I used, and subsequently Selmy remembers information about Ashara, not the sentences he was told about her. Consequently, the 'soon' in this whole thing is Selmy's own insertion - he gives us the time of her death in relation to her stillborn daughter that way. Nearly two decades later 'soon' can be roughly a year. Around the time of Ashara's death it would be improper to say she killed herself soon after her stillbirth.

Generally, the dates given at the beginning of AGoT aren't all that good. The story seems to have changed later - Cat relates the story as if her wedding was near the beginning of the war which simply isn't the case. But the whole stuff still can make sense if Cat's general claim that Ned warred in the South refers to a longer period of time he spent in the Stormlands/Reach and Dorne after the Sack. This would have been a way for Ned to obscure things and make his story plausible that he chanced upon a woman and fathered a bastard on her down there. If Wylla and Jon had traveled to Winterfell/arrived there before a woman Ned impregnated after the Trident/Sack could have given birth to a child the whole cover story would have fallen apart.

We cannot squeeze nine months into the time after the Battle of the Bells and the Sack. That simply doesn't work. And it is also not necessary. We can assume that Cat and Ned did not see each other because Ned simply did not return to Riverrun after the war was won but stayed down in the South and then in KL for quite some time. He may also have spent some time with Robert after their reconciliation. It may even be that Cat and Ned only met each other again at Winterfell, as Cat doesn't state anything about herself arriving together with Ned there - it may be that Ned instructed Cat/sent a contingent of men to escort her from Riverrun to Winterfell while he took a ship from KL to White Harbor and traveled home from there. Ned may have not been particularly eager to be reunited with this 'strange wife' after he had just lost Lyanna in addition to Brandon and Rickard, not to mention that whatever he and Ashara had going on might have been over for good, too. If Ned was in love with her and received the news about her suicide before his return to Winterfell (at KL, for instance) he would have suffered another blow.

And if Ashara actually killed herself the loss of Ned may have been the reason for that. Ser Arthur was only her brother, and a KG is expected to die doing his duty. That should not have broken her. But Arthur's death, Ned's involvement in it, the stillbirth, and the loss of the man she (may have) loved should be enough to break her. The tragedies would have piled up for her in the last year.

Oh, and people make generally mistakes if they casually remember dates 15 years later. We should actually expect more mistakes than we have...

It makes no sense to assume Selmy's mind referred to the stuff somebody told him in any literal sense. If I tell you something, you memorize the information, not the words I used,

--so information is not words?

and subsequently Selmy remembers information about Ashara, not the sentences he was told about her. Consequently, the 'soon' in this whole thing is Selmy's own insertion - he gives us the time of her death in relation to her stillborn daughter that way.

you are asserting that the tale told to Selmy had Ashara giving birth in 282 and throwing herself from the tower in 283.... then Selmy determining that one event followed soon after the other to commit it to memory.

By-the-by Selmy is remembering Ashara, the narrator is relaying his thoughts it is not his journal or tale told to another.

Nearly two decades later 'soon' can be roughly a year. Around the time of Ashara's death it would be improper to say she killed herself soon after her stillbirth.

Delayed fuse mad with grief?

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter ...

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of theKingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Cat relates the story as if her wedding was near the beginning of the war which simply isn't the case.

Her wedding was after the Battle of the Bells, the first engagement between the combined rebel forces and royalist forces.

The war had raged for close to a year--Ned

Battle of Gulltown

Battle of Summerhall

Battle of Ashford

Battle of the Bells

Battle of the Trident

Sack of King's Landing

The siege had lasted close to a year when Davos brought food to the starving garrison at Storm's End that allowed it to survive until Ned arrived--Cressen

Battle of Ashford

Siege of Storm's end.

Battle of the Bells

Battle of the Trident

Sack of King's Landing

Lifting of the siege.

But the whole stuff still can make sense if Cat's general claim that Ned warred in the South refers to a longer period of time he spent in the Stormlands/Reach and Dorne after the Sack.

Cat simply says that she spent the first year of their marriage apart from Ned... nothing contradicts that.

This would have been a way for Ned to obscure things and make his story plausible that he chanced upon a woman and fathered a bastard on her down there.

Cat came up with that story. Ned stated to Robert that he fathered Jon while Catelyn was carrying his child.

If Wylla and Jon had traveled to Winterfell/

Nothing places Wylla at Wnterfell.

arrived there before a woman Ned impregnated after the Trident/Sack could have given birth to a child the whole cover story would have fallen apart.

Nobody ever claimed Ned impregnated anybody after the Trident/sack. It was after the Battle of the Bells,

We cannot squeeze nine months into the time after the Battle of the Bells and the Sack. That simply doesn't work. And it is also not necessary.

Gulltown, Summerhall, Ashford, Battle of the Bells, Trident, Sack. Close to a year.

The only way we cannot have 9 months between the Battle of the Bells and the sack is if there are more than 3 months between Gulltown and the Battle of the Bells.

We can assume that Cat and Ned did not see each other because Ned simply did not return to Riverrun after the war was won It may even be that Cat and Ned only met each other again at Winterfell, as Cat doesn't state anything about herself arriving together with Ned there -

Catelyn rode to winterfell... we do not have Ned at Riverrun.

but stayed down in the South and then in KL for quite some time.

It is based on a previous assumption that the war was over soon after the battle of the bells.

He may also have spent some time with Robert after their reconciliation.

The time and location of the reconcilliation are not given. The next time we have Ned with Robert is the Greyjoy rebellion.

it may be that Ned instructed Cat/sent a contingent of men to escort her from Riverrun to Winterfell while he took a ship from KL to White Harbor and traveled home from there.

Ned is in Starfall to return Dawn. He never actually arrives at Winterfell in the text. We know he is there because according to Cat they spent their first year apart.

Ned may have not been particularly eager to be reunited with this 'strange wife' after he had just lost Lyanna in addition to Brandon and Rickard,

not to mention that whatever he and Ashara had going on might have been over for good, too.

He married her after Brandon and Rickard were dead.

If Ned was in love with her and received the news about her suicide before his return to Winterfell (at KL, for instance) he would have suffered another blow.

We cannot account for Ned's whereabouts for a large portion of the war. We also have no date given for Ashara's suicide.

Ned could have been at Starfall when Ashara killed herself.

And if Ashara actually killed herself the loss of Ned may have been the reason for that. Ser Arthur was only her brother, and a KG is expected to die doing his duty. That should not have broken her. But Arthur's death, Ned's involvement in it, the stillbirth, and the loss of the man she (may have) loved should be enough to break her. The tragedies would have piled up for her in the last year.

We do not have a date for Ashara's child. Cersei seems to believe it would be Jon's age. Selmy is not specific. Edric does not mention a child.

Oh, and people make generally mistakes if they casually remember dates 15 years later. We should actually expect more mistakes than we have...

But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Barry "casually remembers" the failure that haunted him most... casually remembers the love of his life... and has no interest in the details--- outside of her eyes, hair, laugh, etc...

[Lord Varys]

Whent and Dayne most likely were among Rhaegar's half a dozen companions. Does this mean that both were actually assigned to him? No, since royal princes usually only have one sworn shield - which does not necessarily have to be a KG (e.g. Rhaenyra Targaryen after her break-up with Ser Criston Cole; Joffrey Baratheon). I imagine one of them was indeed assigned to Rhaegar by his father but the other may just have decided to accompany Rhaegar without being obligated to do so.

Knowledge about Lyanna:

Jon Connington's POV does not only not betray any knowledge about a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar, it also fails to mention Lyanna at all. But Connington has to know at least that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and fallen in love with her. My guess is that Lyanna is Jon's major trauma as she took Rhaegar away from him for good. The man doesn't even like Elia, but he has to think about her on occasion considering that he is raising her son and his plans are dependent on Elia's brother joining his cause.

We cannot deduce that Jon Connington wasn't at their wedding - if there was a wedding - or didn't know about it, just as we cannot assume he knew nothing about Lyanna and Rhaegar at all simply because he doesn't discuss them.

If there was a wedding lots of people should know about it, especially people talking to Rhaegar after he returned from the tower. I cannot think of a good reason why Rhaegar would keep his marriage to Lyanna a secret at that time. He was back in KL and in command of the Targaryen army - there is a hardly a situation imaginable in which he wouldn't wield more power. And since we should assume he wanted to marry Lyanna and enjoyed being married to her if he did it, there is no reason to believe he would be quiet about it when he was in a position of control.

Therefore there are lots and lots of people who could know stuff about the marriage, even if there wasn't a public wedding - Varys, Pycelle, Rhaella/Viserys, Willem Darry (and subsequently Daenerys), Jaime, Barristan, Elia (and through her Doran and Oberyn). The list of the characters these people may have shared their knowledge with is effectively endless.

The author doesn't want us to know certain things, and that's why people don't think about them or talk about them, but that doesn't mean they don't know. Whether that's always plausible is another matter.

[Eurybia]

Whent and Dayne most likely were among Rhaegar's half a dozen companions. Does this mean that both were actually assigned to him? No, since royal princes usually only have one sworn shield - which does not necessarily have to be a KG (e.g. Rhaenyra Targaryen after her break-up with Ser Criston Cole; Joffrey Baratheon). I imagine one of them was indeed assigned to Rhaegar by his father but the other may just have decided to accompany Rhaegar without being obligated to do so.

Knowledge about Lyanna:

Jon Connington's POV does not only not betray any knowledge about a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar, it also fails to mention Lyanna at all. But Connington has to know at least that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and fallen in love with her. My guess is that Lyanna is Jon's major trauma as she took Rhaegar away from him for good. The man doesn't even like Elia, but he has to think about her on occasion considering that he is raising her son and his plans are dependent on Elia's brother joining his cause.

We cannot deduce that Jon Connington wasn't at their wedding - if there was a wedding - or didn't know about it, just as we cannot assume he knew nothing about Lyanna and Rhaegar at all simply because he doesn't discuss them.

If there was a wedding lots of people should know about it, especially people talking to Rhaegar after he returned from the tower. I cannot think of a good reason why Rhaegar would keep his marriage to Lyanna a secret at that time. He was back in KL and in command of the Targaryen army - there is a hardly a situation imaginable in which he wouldn't wield more power. And since we should assume he wanted to marry Lyanna and enjoyed being married to her if he did it, there is no reason to believe he would be quiet about it when he was in a position of control.

Therefore there are lots and lots of people who could know stuff about the marriage, even if there wasn't a public wedding - Varys, Pycelle, Rhaella/Viserys, Willem Darry (and subsequently Daenerys), Jaime, Barristan, Elia (and through her Doran and Oberyn). The list of the characters these people may have shared their knowledge with is effectively endless.

The author doesn't want us to know certain things, and that's why people don't think about them or talk about them, but that doesn't mean they don't know. Whether that's always plausible is another matter.

I don't think that's necessarily true. He was in a position of power, but his relationship with the king was rocky, and the king was still the king. We know Rhaegar planned to change things after he won at the Trident (which obviously didn't happen), and it could have been he didn't want to rock the boat at such a dangerous time. Declaring his marriage to the girl he "kidnapped" could have inflamed all sides involved: the Dornish because of Elia, the king because he was fighting the Starks, and the rebels as well. I think we don't know enough about why Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna and seemingly hid her to know why he would keep something like that secret.

[Shinjuku Thief]

I think the app is subjective because imo it was written with an RLJ bias.

The books were written with an 'RLJ bias' as well. I mean, we have all these clues and no seriously creditable alternative.

[stateofdissipation]

The books were written with an 'RLJ bias' as well. I mean, we have all these clues and no seriously creditable alternative.

RLJ spends way too much time inventing support and discounting viable alternatives....

Ned and Ashara is equally or more viable... has more support through more books..... and does not rely on invention or misrepresentation.

[Don't Stop BeLieJeRing ❤️]

The books were written with an 'RLJ bias' as well. I mean, we have all these clues and no seriously creditable alternative.

I absolutely agree. RLJ is the solution, so of course you'll see clues that demonstrate it's accuracy no matter where you read. You can't just change the truth. It's remarkable how many crackpots out there want to be the "genius" who figured everything out despite popular opinion. even Reddit had a poll where 97% of it's users believe RLJ, so it makes no sense to claim that it's a culture exclusively cultivated in Westeros.org. Plus, I'd like to think that the owner of this site, who George entrusts to fact check his own work knows a little more about the books than you're average reader.

[Mother of Dragons]

RLJ spends way too much time inventing support and discounting viable alternatives....

Ned and Ashara is equally or more viable... has more support through more books..... and does not rely on invention or misrepresentation.

Agreed. And don't discount Ned and Wylla. I've mentioned it before, that it may seem like it's wrong because it's stated, but it's still possible, but I'd like it to be Ned and Ashara, myself.

[BearQueen87]

RLJ spends way too much time inventing support and discounting viable alternatives....

Ned and Ashara is equally or more viable... has more support through more books..... and does not rely on invention or misrepresentation.

But you have to place Ned and Ashara together 9 months before Jon is born. Ned was fighting a war all over the Riverlands, ect; Ashara was...who knows where. Starfall, KL, Storm's End? So no, it's not equally or more viable at all. It also doesn't explain why RLJ is all over the novels; Ned's internal thoughts about R and L, and total lack of thoughts about Ashara and it doesn't explain Jon's cosmological significance which is something pretty much everyone agrees on--that he is somehow a big player in this mythical game.

[Bael's Bastard]

The World Book (which is canon) explicitly names five confidants (and indicates six) of Rhaegar in contrast to Aerys's small group of trusted advisors. Mooton, Connington, Lonmouth, Lewyn Martell, and best friend Arthur Dayne are named shortly after floating the idea that Rhaegar sent Whent to go to his brother to set up Harrenhal, for the purpose of an informal great council. Not long after, it mentions Rhaegar setting off with six companions when he eventually came across and abducted Lyanna. Were they the same six? We don't know, but we are not told of any other candidates close to Rhaegar. And we have enough basis to suggest these three KG were loyal to Rhaegar at least up to that point (Lewyn is the biggest question mark, and he had to be threatened into bring support for Aerys), perhaps even more than they were to Aerys.

[Eurybia]

But you have to place Ned and Ashara together 9 months before Jon is born. Ned was fighting a war all over the Riverlands, ect; Ashara was...who knows where. Starfall, KL, Storm's End? So no, it's not equally or more viable at all. It also doesn't explain why RLJ is all over the novels; Ned's internal thoughts about R and L, and total lack of thoughts about Ashara and it doesn't explain Jon's cosmological significance which is something pretty much everyone agrees on--that he is somehow a big player in this mythical game.

Ned and Ashara and Ned and Wylla also don't explain why Jon's mother is a big secret to everyone. If it were Ashara, it would make sense that Ned did not want to dishonor a noble lady or perhaps anger Robert with consorting with an enemy, but it doesn't explain never telling Cat. Maybe Ned just doesn't really like gossip? But why hurt people he loves without cause?

And little hints about RLJ in strange passages pop up all the time, that could be construed as clues to readers, not characters. When Cat thinks about "men and their bastards" in ACOK, she specifically links Ned and Penrose, who is protecting a king's son from the wrath of another king. That's a pretty strange analogy to make, if we're supposed to gloss over it.

[Lord Varys]

Eurybia,

I don't think so. We have to assume that Aerys and his court did think a lot about Rhaegar and Lyanna while they were away, and this would have begun immediately after the abduction. We know how good Varys is at his job - is it imaginable he would catch no rumor about their marriage if they did marry? Not to mention that there must have been theories as to what the hell Rhaegar was trying to do with Lyanna after he abducted her. I'm not sure the prevalent theory at court was that he had taken Lyanna to the countryside to have a good long rape vacation at that tower. We know that Dany believes Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna. Unless that's no fairy-tale concocted by Rhaegar fan boys and girls (say, by Rhaella, who failed to see that Rhaegar was actually his father's son and very much enjoying a good rape once in awhile) we should assume that the ultimate source for that should be Rhaegar himself. Now, why would Rhaegar speak about his feelings but not also about the fact that he had married that woman? Especially not a time when the whole Lyanna thing had already caused a civil war anyway?

We also have no idea why Rhaegar went into hiding in the first place. He doesn't appear to be a guy who would abandon everyone and everything just to deflower some maiden - especially not while the Realm was on fire around him. Nobody would do that, actually. My guess is that he was forced to go underground after the abduction - either because he openly married Lyanna and faced repercussions (i.e. his own execution) for that, or he faced a severe punishment for the abduction thing (which was also a crime, and which Aerys most likely believed was part of an elaborate scheme against the royal person).

Rhaegar hiding voluntarily for as long as he did makes no sense to me.

Bael's Bastard,

I think there was a fallout between the Martells and Rhaegar after Harrenhal, and I don't think Lewyn accompanied Rhaegar wherever he went prior to the abduction. That would have been nearly half of Aerys' KG, and I doubt that Lewyn would have been willing to abandon Elia and her children in any case. Whent or Dayne may both have abandoned whoever they were assigned to as it is somewhat unlikely that Aerys had named two KG as Rhaegar's sworn shields - one of them may have been his, but the other may have been Aegon's or Rhaenys' sworn shield, with Lewyn protecting Elia.

Thus the sixth companion is most likely some mystery character - which is always more intriguing.

The really interesting thing is when and why Mooton and Connington returned to court. Didn't they want to go into hiding with Rhaegar? Did he send them back to court to try to get his father to no longer call for his head - if that's what happened? Was there some quarrel between them and Rhaegar leading to them abandoning him - possible for Lewyn (if he was with Rhaegar) once Rhaegar took Lyanna (and married her) and Connington for similar reasons. However, Mooton wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that. Lonmouth could actually have stayed with Rhaegar until the latter returned from the tower as we don't know what happened to him.

[stateofdissipation]

But you have to place Ned and Ashara together 9 months before Jon is born. Ned was fighting a war all over the Riverlands, ect; Ashara was...who knows where. Starfall, KL, Storm's End? So no, it's not equally or more viable at all. It also doesn't explain why RLJ is all over the novels; Ned's internal thoughts about R and L, and total lack of thoughts about Ashara and it doesn't explain Jon's cosmological significance which is something pretty much everyone agrees on--that he is somehow a big player in this mythical game.

But you have to place Ned and Ashara together 9 months before Jon is born. Ned was fighting a war all over the Riverlands, ect; Ashara was...who knows where. Starfall, KL, Storm's End?

Ned rode off to war scarcely two weeks after his wedding, Between there and the Trident we have no indication of his whereabouts.

Ashara awaited Ned in Starfall after the tower of joy. Between Harrenhal and post tower of joy we have no indication of his whereabouts.

Between the Battle of the Bells and the trident can be narrowed down to less than close to a year....

So no, it's not equally or more viable at all.

To have Rhaegar and Lyanna equal Jon you have to prove that Rhaegar was with Lyanna 8 or 9 months or thereabouts before Dany was born.

Rhaegar was called to KIng's Landing after the Battle of the Bells. Unless you can establish the date of his arrival at King's Landing, you have no RLJ.

Attempting to require specifics when none are given cuts two ways.

It also doesn't explain why RLJ is all over the novels;

Ned's internal thoughts about R and L,

Ned thinks of Rhaegar twice...

Ned thinks of Lyanna pretty regularly

Ned thinks of Jon...

Ned never thinks of Rhaegar and Lyanna, Rhaegar and Jon, or Lyanna and Jon.

and total lack of thoughts about Ashara

Again the lack of thoughts confirming a possibility cuts two ways,

and it doesn't explain Jon's cosmological significance

As this is not addressed specifically, it cannot be applied specifically.

which is something pretty much everyone agrees on

Everyone agreeing makes everyone right or everyone wrong...

--that he is somehow a big player in this mythical game.

---need more specifics to address...

[Eurybia]

Eurybia,

I don't think so. We have to assume that Aerys and his court did think a lot about Rhaegar and Lyanna while they were away, and this would have begun immediately after the abduction. We know how good Varys is at his job - is it imaginable he would catch no rumor about their marriage if they did marry? Not to mention that there must have been theories as to what the hell Rhaegar was trying to do with Lyanna after he abducted her. I'm not sure the prevalent theory at court was that he had taken Lyanna to the countryside to have a good long rape vacation at that tower. We know that Dany believes Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna. Unless that's no fairy-tale concocted by Rhaegar fan boys and girls (say, by Rhaella, who failed to see that Rhaegar was actually his father's son and very much enjoying a good rape once in awhile) we should assume that the ultimate source for that should be Rhaegar himself. Now, why would Rhaegar speak about his feelings but not also about the fact that he had married that woman? Especially not a time when the whole Lyanna thing had already caused a civil war anyway?

We also have no idea why Rhaegar went into hiding in the first place. He doesn't appear to be a guy who would abandon everyone and everything just to deflower some maiden - especially not while the Realm was on fire around him. Nobody would do that, actually. My guess is that he was forced to go underground after the abduction - either because he openly married Lyanna and faced repercussions (i.e. his own execution) for that, or he faced a severe punishment for the abduction thing (which was also a crime, and which Aerys most likely believed was part of an elaborate scheme against the royal person).

Rhaegar hiding voluntarily for as long as he did makes no sense to me.

Yeah, I agree that Rhaegar doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would abandon everything to go on some long vacation in Dorne. There must be more to the story that we just don't know yet. But the thing about knowledge of the marriage getting out is that someone would likely have mentioned it. There are so many opportunities for it to have been mentioned. I agree about Connington likely completely burying any thought of Lyanna, purposefully ignoring her existence while possibly keeping the option of a "second-born" son of Rhaegar open. But Dany does believe that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and if that story included a marriage, why would she think of one part and not the other multiple times? I know that Martin has to censor his character's thoughts, but to me, that rings false. But you're right, Lord Varys, it is strange that Rhaegar would speak of his love for Lyanna and not any marriage that took place.

I do actually believe they were married. I just think that it was a secret.

I really am excited to learn more about Rhaegar's "abduction" of Lyanna and the situation surrounding. I feel like there is something huge we don't know yet.

[BearQueen87]

Oh why did I engage??? I learned my lesson a year ago.

I really am excited to learn more about Rhaegar's "abduction" of Lyanna and the situation surrounding. I feel like there is something huge we don't know yet.

Like that it was very possibly not an "abduction" at all.

[Mother of Dragons]

But you have to place Ned and Ashara together 9 months before Jon is born. Ned was fighting a war all over the Riverlands, ect; Ashara was...who knows where. Starfall, KL, Storm's End?

Ned rode off to war scarcely two weeks after his wedding, Between there and the Trident we have no indication of his whereabouts.

Ashara awaited Ned in Starfall after the tower of joy. Between Harrenhal and post tower of joy we have no indication of his whereabouts.

Between the Battle of the Bells and the trident can be narrowed down to less than close to a year....

So no, it's not equally or more viable at all.

To have Rhaegar and Lyanna equal Jon you have to prove that Rhaegar was with Lyanna 8 or 9 months or thereabouts before Dany was born.

Rhaegar was called to KIng's Landing after the Battle of the Bells. Unless you can establish the date of his arrival at King's Landing, you have no RLJ.

Attempting to require specifics when none are given cuts two ways.

It also doesn't explain why RLJ is all over the novels;

Ned's internal thoughts about R and L,

Ned thinks of Rhaegar twice...

Ned thinks of Lyanna pretty regularly

Ned thinks of Jon...

Ned never thinks of Rhaegar and Lyanna, Rhaegar and Jon, or Lyanna and Jon.

and total lack of thoughts about Ashara

Again the lack of thoughts confirming a possibility cuts two ways,

and it doesn't explain Jon's cosmological significance

As this is not addressed specifically, it cannot be applied specifically.

which is something pretty much everyone agrees on

Everyone agreeing makes everyone right or everyone wrong...

--that he is somehow a big player in this mythical game.

---need more specifics to address...

*slow clap* SOD, once again you've put together an organized, well reasoned argument. Hat tip to you, ser!

[SFDanny]

The war is counted from Jon Arryn calling his banners until the Sack.. That's not 20 months of war.. The war itself lasted only "close to a year".

This post of Ran might be of interest, posted today.

On a separate note..

I mentioned this on the first page of the thread, but apparently, no one saw it?

Does anyone have any idea's?

When Ned thinks to himself, and thereby tells us the readers, the war raged on for close to a year, he is thinking of the time from the first battles in the Vale when Jon Arryn calls his banners up to the sack of King's Landing. Obviously, the relief of Storm's End and finally the taking of Dragonstone are months later. Dragonstone is nine months or more after the sack, depending on how long after Daenerys's birth Ser Willem smuggles the Targaryen children out of Dragonstone and Stannis's fleet arrives.

Just how long that is we don't know.

Thanks, for the link to Ran's post.

Sorry, about not responding earlier about why Ned remembers the Kingsguard so vividly in his dream while his friends appear as wraiths. I think there is no one way to interpret this, but my own take on it is it is because of Ned's guilt. As I've said before, I think the key to understanding Ned Stark is when he responds to Cersei saying, "for a start, I do not kill children." It is Ned's touchstone - to protect the innocent. I think Ned admires these men, as he makes clear, but the great tragedy of the combat is not only the deaths of all these men, but that his opponents died protecting innocents from him. Ned, as we know him, would never harm his sister, nor would he harm her child, but neither Lyanna or the Kingsguard can do anything but see him as a threat to them. Ned kills men he admires while they do what he himself sees as the greatest good. The deaths of Elia's children haunt him in that he was associated with their murders - as he calls them. It is Robert's acceptance of these murders by Tywin that leads directly to, in my opinion, the response of the Kingsguard fighting him and his party, and the fear he sees in his own dying sister's eyes. That kind of guilt doesn't fade away, and neither do the images of good men who die trying to stop him from doing the same type of murder. My view anyway.

edit: RT, a question for you, and anyone else who wants to respond. Do you think Ned really meant for Jon to take the black when he does? I ask because when Jon leaves to go North to the Wall his uncle Benjen would have a lot of power among the Watch commanders regarding if Jon would be promoted or not, and, obviously, Benjen would have some influence over what his nephew thinks. Is it likely that what we see here is Ned's method of getting Jon out of Winterfell, keeping him from King's Landing, and under Benjen's watch? The actually joining of the Night's Watch may or may not be in Ned and Benjen's plans for Jon sometime down the road, but it all goes to hell when Benjen disappears.

[IceFire125]

And little hints about RLJ in strange passages pop up all the time, that could be construed as clues to readers, not characters. When Cat thinks about "men and their bastards" in ACOK, she specifically links Ned and Penrose, who is protecting a king's son from the wrath of another king. That's a pretty strange analogy to make, if we're supposed to gloss over it.

These 'little hints' do not count for people that refuse to accept RLJ, so don't bother. Which is sad, actually, they do not recognize Martin's eloquent writing. The so-called planting of the seeds, sprinkling hints after hints through out the novels, is lost on them, OR they refuse to believe until it's actually stated in the texts plainly.

Because we know that Martin does have such revelation strategy.

His editor, Anne Groell calls it, the three-fold revelation method:

Question: Anne, although you're the envy of many a GRRM fan, do you ever wish you didn't have to edit the books so that you could be surprised by them all at once along with the rest of us?

Anne Groell: No. As above, he doesn’t tell me a lot. He feels I am most effective at my job if I am surprised along with everyone else. And it is easier to tell when he’s overplaying a hand and revealing things too early if you don’t actually know going in what will happen. That said, now that I’ve realized his three-fold revelation strategy, I see it in play almost every time. The first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else. It’s a brilliant strategy, and highly effective. http://universe.suvudu.com/q-and-a/anne-groell#.U4erogUsR6s.twitter

1. Her breath frosted the air in small nervous puffs. “They say the king gives justice and protects the weak.” She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground. - ACOK Jon III

2. When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.” - ADWD Jon II

3. So, in A Dream of Spring, will we see Gilly enter Jon's castle, find him sitting on his throne and wearing his crown, then as she approached him, she bends her knees to the king of the realm for all (including the readers) to see?

-

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. “Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?” - ASOS Bran II

**The Knight of the Laughing Tree did marry. She married the Prince of Dragonstone, who won the tournament in the end.

-

“And why would that be? I’ve had lords before. They’re made the same as other men.”

“Have you ever had a prince?” he asked her. “When you’re wrinkled and grey and your teats hang past your belly, you can tell your children’s children that once you loved a king.”

“Oh, is it love we’re talking now? And here I thought it was just cocks and cunts.”

“Is it love you fancy?” He’d decided that he liked this wench, whoever she was; her sharp wit was a welcome respite

from the damp gloom of Pyke. “Shall I name my longship after you, and play you the high harp, and keep you in a tower room in my castle with only jewels to wear, like a princess in a song?” - ACOK Theon II

**So, was Lyanna a princess? ;)

[shk12344]

These 'little hints' do not count for people that refuse to accept RLJ, so don't bother.

I'm convinced that even when the book confirms R + L = J, there's going to be people who won't accept it as fact.

For example, I expect R+L=J to be confirmed in book 6. So what some will argue is that's just red herring and GRRM will reveal the REAL TRUTH in the last book.