Lord Lannister Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Nah, just an impulsive hot-head. He wasn't the one who challenged someone to a duel over the guy's betrothed. He had a right to be at least concerned about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, and it certainly made sense to be upset about her having been kidnapped. He played the cards he was dealt, he just played them badly. We really only have character's memories to go by all told with their own agenda or slant. I'm not trying to turn this into an OMG Brandon is evil thread by any means, just that from what I read of him he seemed to have the mindset of a bully and forced his wants on any situation even if they were often justified from his point of view. From taking Barbery's maidenhead to how he maneuvered Ashara into dancing with Ned, scarring Littlefinger when he really didn't need to to win that duel, and his mindset when he challenged Rhaegar. It wasn't a heat of the moment, they were both right there kind of thing. He rode all the way from the Riverlands to King's Landing and still his first impulse was to force himself on the situation by challenging Rhaegar as he did. But yes, I can see how you came to that conclusion with what we're given as well, he definitely was hot-headed whatever else he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Robb Stark ravaged the Westerlands with the same savagery that Tywin ravaged the Riverlands, and likely murdered thousands of innocent people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 That's a stretch and I suspect you know it, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmet Eren Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 well I agree that Ned was strong and cold for me current generation you don't wanna be in Arya list rickson I assume when he grow up and for Bran I dont think he is cruel right now but for the future who know .... I also believe there must have been very cruel stark thought story especially king of winter they don't call you king of winter in the cold north for no reason also there is warg/old gods factor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmet Eren Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Robb Stark ravaged the Westerlands with the same savagery that Tywin ravaged the Riverlands, and likely murdered thousands of innocent people. I dont remember this but if he did well he is also cruel ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmet Eren Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 The ancient Starks were basically Boltons without the sadistic or treacherous aspects. In short, brutal and hard, but straight up in your face about it. well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I dont remember this but if he did well he is also cruel ..... He did... Karstark was basically let loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Robb Stark ravaged the Westerlands with the same savagery that Tywin ravaged the Riverlands, and likely murdered thousands of innocent people. Still different from Tywin though. Robb takes castles in the west but the Highborn captives are treated well. Look at Tywins dogs - Gregor Clegane kills a boy Darry and Tywin does nothing. Karstark does something similar and kills Lannister boys and Robb beheads him. Shows Robb and Tywin had a different approach - at least where it concerns the highborn captives. I don't doubt the Northerners did their share of looting, pillaging and raping of the smallfolk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Still different from Tywin though. Robb takes castles in the west but the Highborn captives are treated well. Look at Tywins dogs - Gregor Clegane kills a boy Darry and Tywin does nothing. Karstark does something similar and kills Lannister boys and Robb beheads him. Shows Robb and Tywin had a different approach - at least where it concerns the highborn captives. I don't doubt the Northerners did their share of looting, pillaging and raping of the smallfolk That's because Tywin is evil and Robb wasn't so that's a reason. And Robb and his army did less damage in the Westerlands than Tywin did in the Riverlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 That's because Tywin is evil and Robb wasn't so that's a reason. And Robb and his army did less damage in the Westerlands than Tywin did in the Riverlands. We don't know what Robb and his men did in the west. They were there for months. We never see the condition of the west - quite possibly its as bad as the Riverlands. Look at BlackFish's response when Jaime says they can bring food from the west - the BF does not believe him. Why not? Maybe because the BF knows that he and Robb didn't leave much standing in the west either. Can't think of another reason why the Lannisters can't bring food from their own lands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 We don't know what Robb and his men did in the west. They were there for months. We never see the condition of the west - quite possibly its as bad as the Riverlands. Look at BlackFish's response when Jaime says they can bring food from the west - the BF does not believe him. Why not? Maybe because the BF knows that he and Robb didn't leave much standing in the west either. Can't think of another reason why the Lannisters can't bring food from their own lands. Well, here's another: the Blackfish mistrusts literally everything the Kingslayer says. Everything. Every single promise, every single offer, every single statement. Poor Ser Jaime seems to have zero, mathematically zero, credibility there, on all imaginable issues. Including prisoner exchange. And surrender conditions. And food. And the Night's Watch. And proposed duel. And in all likeliness water being wet. It's pretty much "I can tell when you're lying. Your lips are moving". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Still different from Tywin though. Robb takes castles in the west but the Highborn captives are treated well. Look at Tywins dogs - Gregor Clegane kills a boy Darry and Tywin does nothing. Karstark does something similar and kills Lannister boys and Robb beheads him. They are nothing alike. Darry was not a prisoner, he died defending his castle. Tywin does nothing because he died in battle while Robb has to act as killing prisoners besmirches his honor. Had Rickard killed them in battle Robb would not have punished him, it is crazy that you are pretending that he would have done. As for prisoners in the Westerlands, we only know of ho Robb treated the family he married. We have no idea how he treated the others or if there were any others. "There's some say that after the battle, the king cut out Stafford Lannister's heart and fed it to the wolf." So just as brutal and killing noble prisoners. At best they are just the same, at worst Robb has done worse by killing noble prisoners. Shows Robb and Tywin had a different approach - at least where it concerns the highborn captives. I don't doubt the Northerners did their share of looting, pillaging and raping of the smallfolk No it doesn't as Darry was not a captive. Their different approach is that Robb slept with some of his prisoners and Karstark killed them without trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Brandon Ice Eyes Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 They are nothing alike. Darry was not a prisoner, he died defending his castle. Tywin does nothing because he died in battle while Robb has to act as killing prisoners besmirches his honor. Had Rickard killed them in battle Robb would not have punished him, it is crazy that you are pretending that he would have done. As for prisoners in the Westerlands, we only know of ho Robb treated the family he married. We have no idea how he treated the others or if there were any others. "There's some say that after the battle, the king cut out Stafford Lannister's heart and fed it to the wolf." So just as brutal and killing noble prisoners. At best they are just the same, at worst Robb has done worse by killing noble prisoners. No it doesn't as Darry was not a captive. Their different approach is that Robb slept with some of his prisoners and Karstark killed them without trial. When Gregor Clegane took Harrenhal from the Bloody Mummers he fed his highborn prisoners, including Wyllis Manderly, Vargo's flesh. When Jaime gets to the castle he notes Wyllis seems completely broken in spirit, a shell of a man. Cersei notes how brutal Gregor used to be with hostages, including the ones with the highest ransom. Forcing a starving prisoner to be a cannibal for pure sadism is a unspeakable offense, and yet Gregor thought he could get away with it. He also knew he could get away with killing a soldier for snoring and murdering servants in his keep because he is Tywin's muscle and so those actions never warranted an investigation or, as far as we know it, a disciplinary action. By comparison Robb executes Karstark, even though he came from a much more powerful family than the Mountain, because he deemed what he did a war crime. It's not so much personal honor when the law seem to consider what Rickard did a transgression worthy of death. Tywin also knows from Tyrion that Joffrey has been abusing Sansa since her father's death and never takes actions against it. It's obvious that Robb is much less cruel to people, whether they are nobles or commoners, than Tywin is. People say a lot of silly stuff. Robb most likely wouldn't do something so over the top and cruel. He is not characterized that way. People from Westeros on the other hand are characterized as having a fertile imagination and are known for twisting the truth in their tales. Rumours also say that Dany is a sexual deviant, that she baths in virgins's blood and executes men who can't please her sexually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 That's a stretch and I suspect you know it, sir. That's not a stretch, it's what's plainly stated in the text. Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands. Still different from Tywin though. Robb takes castles in the west but the Highborn captives are treated well. Look at Tywins dogs - Gregor Clegane kills a boy Darry and Tywin does nothing. Karstark does something similar and kills Lannister boys and Robb beheads him. Shows Robb and Tywin had a different approach - at least where it concerns the highborn captives. I don't doubt the Northerners did their share of looting, pillaging and raping of the smallfolk I'm not sure of his highborn prisoner policy. I do know, however, that he ravaged the hell out of the civilian population in a universe where that's not normal. Also, Tywin raped his own child then later shamed the same son for not raping a 12 year old that they both found "hot", and this is one of the most minor crimes he committed. So you're really not going to get anywhere comparing characters to him morally. It's obvious that Robb is much less cruel to people, whether they are nobles or commoners, than Tywin is. People say a lot of silly stuff. Robb most likely wouldn't do something so over the top and cruel. He is not characterized that way. People from Westeros on the other hand are characterized as having a fertile imagination and are known for twisting the truth in their tales. Rumours also say that Dany is a sexual deviant, that she baths in virgins's blood and executes men who can't please her sexually. About 75% of the rumors about Dany were true. The other 25% were false, but then there weren't rumors about her reinstating slavery and torturing children, either. -They say that she kills people by impaling them on spikes. Basically true, she crucifies them. -They say she is bloodthirsty. This is true, she loves killing people in her rage fits (it makes her feel like an avenging dragon) and butchered thousands of people including children in her first conquest. -They say she is a sorceress who feeds her dragons the flesh of children. This is mostly true; she did use magic to supplement her dragons. Specifically by torturing a rape victim who did nothing wrong to death. Her dragons also have killed children, but that was due to neglect on her part rather than malice. -They say she is an oathbreaker who breaks deals and threatens envoys. Sorry, but this is 100% true. Astapor and Yunkai, anyone? -They say she turns on even those loyal to her. Kinda-sorta-not-really true; she exiled Jorah, who was 100% loyal to her at the time, but considering what he'd already done, it was a valid punishment. -They say that she's lustful and mates with men, women, eunuchs, and animals. Kinda-sorta-not-really true. She is lustful (she's a teenager, after all), and she does mate with both men and women, but she obviously never had sex with eunuchs or animals. She's not particularly promiscuous either, not that it matters. -They say she kills men who cannot sexually satisfy her. This is the only part of the rumors that are 100% not true. So this is a pretty bad example for you to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 When Gregor Clegane took Harrenhal from the Bloody Mummers he fed his highborn prisoners, including Wyllis Manderly, Vargo's flesh. And yet they still lived, unlike the boys Karstark butchered. When Jaime gets to the castle he notes Wyllis seems completely broken in spirit, a shell of a man. Yup. pretty common amongst prisoners on both sides. "Lord Jast was armored in black steel, three gold lion's heads inlaid on his breastplate. The rumors of his death had not been far wrong, to look at him; wounds and imprisonment had left him a shadow of the man he'd been." Prisoners are not treated well on either side, yet the worst treatment we have heard of prisoners came to Willem Lannister, Tion Frey and Jaime Lannister. By comparison Robb executes Karstark, even though he came from a much more powerful family than the Mountain, because he deemed what he did a war crime. It's not so much personal honor when the law seem to consider what Rickard did a transgression worthy of death. er, Im failing to see your point here. Someone made a comparison to their deaths to that of the young Lord Darry when they are nothing alike. Darry was killed in battle, they were prisoners. Robb would not have punished Rickard had he killed them in battle. "In battle I might have slain Tion and Willem myself, but this was no battle. They were asleep in their beds, naked and unarmed, in a cell where I put them. Rickard Karstark killed more than a Frey and a Lannister. He killed my honor. I shall deal with him at dawn." Honestly, the grasping at straws to try and whitewash the Starks is kind of boring. The deaths of Darry and the Lannister prisoners is a an idiotic comparison. Tywin also knows from Tyrion that Joffrey has been abusing Sansa since her father's death and never takes actions against it. Does he not? People say a lot of silly stuff. So you are willing to believe any story about the Mountain that we hear second hand but when we are told a story, by Robb supporters no less, about his cruelty you are just going to refuse to believe it? Seems fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 NM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Brandon Ice Eyes Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 And yet they still lived, unlike the boys Karstark butchered. Yes, I didn't say it was worse but the situations are comparable. That proves Gregor had free range to be a complete monster to his victims and Tywin would turn a blind eye. The reputation of the Mountain in the Seven Kingdoms is foul, everyone agrees the guy is a beast but he is Tywin's brawns everytime. Yup. pretty common amongst prisoners on both sides. "Lord Jast was armored in black steel, three gold lion's heads inlaid on his breastplate. The rumors of his death had not been far wrong, to look at him; wounds and imprisonment had left him a shadow of the man he'd been." Prisoners are not treated well on either side, yet the worst treatment we have heard of prisoners came to Willem Lannister, Tion Frey and Jaime Lannister. You chose the ignore the rest and focus solely on my account about Willen's state. The guy was fed human flesh. Unless it's proven Lord Jast suffered a similar thing the situations are not comparable. Also Wyllis was captured, so every thing he suffered was from captivity. He suffered no wound previously that we know of. Karstark went rogue from grief and killed those boys and Robb punished him for it swiftly. er, Im failing to see your point here. Someone made a comparison to their deaths to that of the young Lord Darry when they are nothing alike. Darry was killed in battle, they were prisoners. Robb would not have punished Rickard had he killed them in battle. "In battle I might have slain Tion and Willem myself, but this was no battle. They were asleep in their beds, naked and unarmed, in a cell where I put them. Rickard Karstark killed more than a Frey and a Lannister. He killed my honor. I shall deal with him at dawn." Honestly, the grasping at straws to try and whitewash the Starks is kind of boring. The deaths of Darry and the Lannister prisoners is a an idiotic comparison. I don't know why you are bring Darry's prisoner into the discussion again. That wasn't my argument. My argument is that Tywin is much more careless and cruel about other people's lives than Robb, and the way he enables Gregor proves it. Robb cares for his honor and that makes him hold ideas closer to humanistic views, even if his way of conducting warfare is still very brutal from our perspective. He is still doesn't capitalize in terror the way Tywin does. Tywin is a guy people think would burn down a whole village to kill one guy. You don't get a reputation like that by being a regular, by the norm aristocrat and battle commander. Tywin is freakishly without empathy. Does he not? He doesn't. He doesn't talk to Joffrey about it, he doesn't provide better care for Sansa, nothing. He marries Tyrion to Sansa for political reasons, essentially sending Sansa to be raped with the crown consent. Joffrey even says he will rape Sansa after she gets married to Tyrion. So you are willing to believe any story about the Mountain that we hear second hand but when we are told a story, by Robb supporters no less, about his cruelty you are just going to refuse to believe it? Seems fair. YES, because that is not a real life trial concerning real human beings. This is a fictional story where characterization is all that guide us through understanding the people who populate this universe. Gregor is characterized as a savage, bloody beast. Robb is not. By this very fact we can infer what I stated and this is fair. Do you believe the rumors about Ramsay flaying alive the women who don't give him a ''good sport'' even though we never see him doing it in Theon's chapters? Of course you do, because Ramsay is characterized as a monster. Don't act like you are fair and sound either. You spend time and time in this forum whitewashing Tywin, Walder and other fucked up characters for the sake of tiresome moral relativism, to be contrary or simply because you like them. Either way you are NOT unbiased, so don't patronize me or any Stark fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponzi Scheme Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Lord Rickard. He was trying to undermine the authority of King Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caspoi Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Of course not, they only became kings over half a continent by being nice towards everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Lord Rickard. He was trying to undermine the authority of King Aerys. That would be heroism. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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