Fantasy with discussion of gender roles

[ChillyPolly]

On a more feminist positive note, does anyone have any fantasy or urban fantasy series they credit for improving their lives in perception of different gender roles?

 

I honestly do not understand the question.  But I don't read urban fantasy, so maybe that leaves me out.  Can you give an example, even hypothetical, of a fantasy series improving someone's life by altering their perceptions of gender roles?

[Kalbear]

 
I honestly do not understand the question.  But I don't read urban fantasy, so maybe that leaves me out.  Can you give an example, even hypothetical, of a fantasy series improving someone's life by altering their perceptions of gender roles?

left hand of darkness.

Dragon flight.

Handmaids tale.

[MerenthaClone]

left hand of darkness.

Handmaids tale.

In addition to these two, [i]Jonathon Strange and Mr. Norrell[/i] does an absolutely fan-fucking-tastic job of getting you to rage against ostensibly well-meaning protective impulses that nonetheless diminish those who you're "protecting" especially if the people involved are steadfastly rejecting that help.  I'd already been primed for that by other things, but wooo boy did that drive some things home.  Not explicitly feminist, I suppose, but there's a lot to pick up from it.

 

Kal:  I don't think I've read Dragon flight, unless you're talking about Anne McCaffrey's book, in which case, I have mixed feelings that I'm not entirely sure how to explain or discuss. Some others that probably were formative for my very young brain (admittedly, YA fiction) but Tamora Pierce's [i]Lioness[/i] series and Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar stuff did a lot.  Nowhere near as good as the two Kal described, but I'd rate them really highly in terms of my own early development.  Redwall pretty steadfastly maintaining that the most badass fighters ever are all female badgers was pretty cool, too in retrospect.  So, altering my perceptions?  Not so much, but definitely important in creating them.  

[Kalbear]

The Anne mccafferty book was what I was talking about. The first one absolutely has some fairly harsh gender roles, and the harpist trilogy is also kind of interesting there. Definitely formative for me at the time I read it.

More recently hunger games is excellent in taking a deeply flawed woman and showing her inner dialog and transposing it against what people think about her and what expectations they have of her.

[C.T. Phipps]

 

I honestly do not understand the question.  But I don't read urban fantasy, so maybe that leaves me out.  Can you give an example, even hypothetical, of a fantasy series improving someone's life by altering their perceptions of gender roles?

 

Well. I grew up in a household which was deeply conservative if not fundamentalist and drifted to that area myself. My exposure to gender roles outside the norm was pretty limited and the concept was always reinforced women were pretty different from men on a inborn inalterable level. That was enforced even in school where I went (since I went to private Catholic school with uniforms).

 

One of the earliest fantasy series I read was the D&D paperback DRAGONLANCE Saga and while written by some fairly conservative people themselves, actually exposed me to some truly fascinating characters in Laurana, Crysania, and Kitiara. The latter, in particular, was the first time women were ever shown to me as being sexually aggressive, ambitious, and sword-swinging. They existed in the background but kind of filtered through growing up in Reagan America (She-Ra and the women from G.I. Joe also deserve some credit I suppose).

 

Dragonlance inspired me to become far more invested in the genre as I became interested in countless other interesting Fantastic Women who altered my perception on a lot of things. I drifted away from fundamentalism (thank God) to become much more interested in liberal Christianity and helped gain a better appreciation of gender roles and influences in part because of later series I read. There was a whole swath of fantasy heroines I became acquainted with because of it both in 5-dollar Waldenbooks D&D fantasy (Arilyn Moonblade, Cattie Brie, the Seven Sisters, and so on) to more mainstream fantasy series like THE WHEEL OF TIME where suddenly women were eveyrwhere, DOING THINGS and not just one or two a book!

 

George R.R. Martin's work really was a nice splash of cold water as to just how toxic the Medieval culture we took for granted in our fantasy was plus how that can truly warp some individuals (Cersei), I was actually also inspired by the ANITA BLAKE series when it first came out because it also took the track of presenting female characters who were struggling with the gender identity expected of them versus the one which they really possessed (specifically, that Anita is a vicious cold-blooded killer who looks like a short pale Mexican girl). I was hoping gender issues would be dealt with a bit more in the Patricia Briggs series and was deeply disappointed in the very-very hetero-normative ending of THE HOLLOWS series.

 

Fantasy, for me, has often allowed me to broaden my horizon to ideals and characters and concepts I wouldn't normally have encountered in my immediate social circle. But in addition to what I read, they've also expanded my knowledge of the world by simply introducing me to new fandoms too. Thank God for the internet. I'm thirty-four now so I've read, literally, hundreds of fantasy series both great and small but they've all contributed to me building a greater awareness and growing as a person. They've also all added, like raindrops in a pool, to the collective cultural library which I draw from when I write my own novels.

 

ESOTERRORISM wouldn't star a biracial protagonist, his lesbian twin sister, her lover, and a troubled female agent forced into playing the Black Widow role if not for all the influences I picked up on.

[Richard Writhen]

Hmm. That is the second time in 24 hours or so that someone had mentioned Bitten. Not familiar...

[C.T. Phipps]

Hmm. That is the second time in 24 hours or so that someone had mentioned Bitten. Not familiar...

 

Famous woman's urban fantasy novel, has a show on SyFy starring Smallville's Supergirl.

 

The series gets a lot of critiques from feminists because the heroine is the ONLY FEMALE WEREWOLF EVER and her only associates are her overprotective male family members.

Which works somewhat in the books but means that it's a show with almost no women in it of importance since women are outside of the book's "point."

[The Marquis de Leech]

The one that immediately sprang to mind is Le Guin's Left Hand of Darkness. It's soft science-fiction, rather than fantasy, but is the best discussion of gender roles within speculative fiction I can think of.

 

(Le Guin hijacking her Earthsea series with heavy handed commentary is less successful). 

[MerenthaClone]

The one that immediately sprang to mind is Le Guin's Left Hand of Darkness. It's soft science-fiction, rather than fantasy, but is the best discussion of gender roles within speculative fiction I can think of.

 

(Le Guin hijacking her Earthsea series with heavy handed commentary is less successful). 

Hijacking?  When?  Atuan is the second book and has a lot of themes I'd classify as feminist, though subtly. Are you talking about Tehanu?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Hijacking?  When?  Atuan is the second book and has a lot of themes I'd classify as feminist, though subtly. Are you talking about Tehanu?

 

Yes, Tehanu. Which has the subtlety of a brick. 

[polishgenius]

Yeah, in Atuan, although it wasn't a great book in my opinion (only the third Earthsea one is), the themes fit within the existing structures of the story.

In Tehanu she tore apart her own universe in a rather extreme way.

[David Selig]

I am only midway in the Kitty Norville series, but so far it's been pretty good in this respect. I especially liked that the main character ended up falling in love with the guy who was very much non-alpha, instead of the very typical alpha "jerk with a heart of gold" who was the other obvious candidate for that. It's also nice that Kitty has a normal relationship with her mom and sister, calls them regularly, they chat about family stuff, etc. Also Kitty (the main character) is a werewolf, but half of the other werewolves are also female and they can be jerks and villains just as often as the male werewolves.

 

Apart from urban fantasy, when it comes to discussing gender roles, I highly recommend Karen Joy Fowler's work. She writes sci-fi or mainstream novels (often hard to tell which), and she's really good in exploring gender roles in subtle, but powerful way. Sarah Canary is a probably a good place to start (it's either sci-fi or a historical novel depending on interpretation, awesome either way), but her short fiction is extraordinary too, and that's where she deals most overtly with gender issues (though that's always present in some way in her work).

 

Cat Valente's work also usually includes plenty of gender roles stuff. Orphan's Tales especially (it won a Tiptree award - BTW, the winners and the shortlisted works for this award are a great place to start if you are looking for this type of SFF), but there's plenty of this in the Prester John novels and a lot of her short stories too.

[C.T. Phipps]

But yes, I only started talking about urban fantasy because that was the subject in the feminist thread.

 

I'd like to talk about feminism in urban fantasy.

 

All of your favorite fantasy stories!

[SeanF]

Yeah, in Atuan, although it wasn't a great book in my opinion (only the third Earthsea one is), the themes fit within the existing structures of the story.

In Tehanu she tore apart her own universe in a rather extreme way.

 

IMHO, the chapter in which Ged and Tenar break out of the Tombs is absolutely gripping, and  one of the best descriptions of the use of magic I've ever read in fantasy.

 

I agree completely about Tehanu (I thought The Finder was a return to form, though).

[Mars447]

Eh nevermind.

[C.T. Phipps]

Speaking of gender roles and fantasy, I'm not sure Patrick Rothfuss thinks of women and girls as actual human beings who have their own identities, motivations and desires beyond how they relate sexually/romantically to himself/his heroic stand-in character.

 

It's not just Denna or any of the women who Kvothe meets in book 2.  I mean god help me but I just read a certain one of his blog posts  :eek: .

 

I haven't read any of Patrick Rothfuss' blog posts so I can't speak to them but I think that may be overstating matters just a wee bit. I'm a sex-positive feminist so I don't, necessarily, think that a protagonist who gets laid with a lot of women is necessarily committing any egregious sins against femininity. It's entirely possible for male characters in real life and fiction to have healthy, even exceptionally active, sex lives while being feminist.

 

NOT THAT I THINK KVOTHE IS THAT GUY.

 

Yeah.

 

Much can be said about the fact Kvothe, essentially, stalks Denna for the past two books despite how much the books make it painfully obvious, "She's just not that into him." The fact he continues to treat her like a scared animal, his own words, he needs to approach with caution versus acknowledging she's a grown woman with her own deal is my single least favorite part of the Kingkiller Chronicle.

 

Hell, the fact he's STILL hung up over her a decade later while living in an inn makes it all the weirder since there's plenty of receptive, interesting, three-dimensional female characters who actually, you know, LIKE Kvothe and wouldn't be adverse to having a relationship with him.

 

It's really-really unpleasant.

 

What's weird is I also figured out Denna is meant to be fantasy Holly Golightly from Breakfast at Tiffanys (movie version). Her relationships with men, her background, and so on. That was a cool moment to realize I was reading an Audrey Hepburn character EXPY. It also helped me realize where Patrick was going with this.

 

But Patrick, sorry, you're not Truman Capote.

 

For me, I like EVERY OTHER FEMALE in the setting.

 

And I don't even hate Denna, I just dislike Kvothe's relationship with her.

[Darth Richard II]

Rothfuss blog posts are...bad. There was his famous one about the hobbit movies were he compared it to seeing a cute girl from your class at a strip club, then there's his babes of fantasy calendar, then there's the AMA he had in Tedder were someone asked what Denna's cup size was and not only did he answer, he went into detail. And yet he never gets called out on any of this this and the squealing if the fangirls(yes, fanGiRls) just gets louder. The whole thing just makes him seem like a really horny adolescent who just found his dad's porn collection the other day. And I havnt even gotten started on his work. I would argue there are zero female characters in those books with any sort of dimension. Hell I can't even think of there names, just the color of their hair.

Ahem. End of rant.

[Mars447]

 

I haven't read any of Patrick Rothfuss' blog posts so I can't speak to them but I think that may be overstating matters just a wee bit. I'm a sex-positive feminist so I don't, necessarily, think that a protagonist who gets laid with a lot of women is necessarily committing any egregious sins against femininity. It's entirely possible for male characters in real life and fiction to have healthy, even exceptionally active, sex lives while being feminist.

 

NOT THAT I THINK KVOTHE IS THAT GUY.

 

Yeah.

 

Much can be said about the fact Kvothe, essentially, stalks Denna for the past two books despite how much the books make it painfully obvious, "She's just not that into him." The fact he continues to treat her like a scared animal, his own words, he needs to approach with caution versus acknowledging she's a grown woman with her own deal is my single least favorite part of the Kingkiller Chronicle.

 

Hell, the fact he's STILL hung up over her a decade later while living in an inn makes it all the weirder since there's plenty of receptive, interesting, three-dimensional female characters who actually, you know, LIKE Kvothe and wouldn't be adverse to having a relationship with him.

 

It's really-really unpleasant.

 

What's weird is I also figured out Denna is meant to be fantasy Holly Golightly from Breakfast at Tiffanys (movie version). Her relationships with men, her background, and so on. That was a cool moment to realize I was reading an Audrey Hepburn character EXPY. It also helped me realize where Patrick was going with this.

 

But Patrick, sorry, you're not Truman Capote.

 

For me, I like EVERY OTHER FEMALE in the setting.

 

And I don't even hate Denna, I just dislike Kvothe's relationship with her.

The thing is, it feels like all of those other characters really only exist to relate to Kvothe sexually.  There's Felurian, of course.  But pretty much every other female character he meets afterwards exists solely to validate the idea that Kvothe either is super sexy and bangable or so totally awesome at sex, guys!  And the Ademi are such a horrible example of a matriarchal society that seems to exist solely to 1) make Kvothe more awesome and 2) provide Kvothe with a steady supply of willing casual sex partners who can also assert that Kvothe is totally awesome at sex.

[C.T. Phipps]

The thing is, it feels like all of those other characters really only exist to relate to Kvothe sexually.  There's Felurian, of course.  But pretty much every other female character he meets afterwards exists solely to validate the idea that Kvothe either is super sexy and bangable or so totally awesome at sex, guys!  And the Ademi are such a horrible example of a matriarchal society that seems to exist solely to 1) make Kvothe more awesome and 2) provide Kvothe with a steady supply of willing casual sex partners who can also assert that Kvothe is totally awesome at sex.

 

Well, the female character I think of most is Devi rather than Felurian. Snarky fun money-lender who scares the hell out of Kvothe because he really can't believe she's dealing straight with him.

 

Hell, I'd love to read a Vlad Taltos-esque series about her.

 

Lady Meluan Lackless who, admittedly, is just there to be racist against Not-Romani and probably be Kvothe's aunt.

 

I also like the UNPRECEDENTED IN FANTASY event where Kvothe was uninterested in Fela's crush and she moved on.

 

I really HOPE Kvothe's relationship with Auri isn't meant to be sexual.

 

As for the Ademi? They're an odd-odd digression for Kvothe's story, though I suppose I don't necessarily disagree with a free love culture of ninjas so I'm more forgiving than I should be.

 

:)

[polishgenius]

Much can be said about the fact Kvothe, essentially, stalks Denna for the past two books despite how much the books make it painfully obvious, "She's just not that into him."

 

 

I'm not defending the writing of Denna, because in places it's hella awkward, but I think the books make it very clear that she's very into him indeed, but is scared of that fact.

I also don't think his relationship with her is meant to be seen as healthy. There are lots of things to criticise Rothfuss for in this ballpark, but I don't think that is one of them.

 

I do agree that many of his other women characters are pretty good. A bit like Butcher, he doesn't necessarily suck at writing women- he sucks at writing the relationships of women with his main character.