Who was a ''better person'': Brynden Rivers or Tywin Lannister?

[Fat Mac]

Even with Kevan why would anybody throughout the realm that's not a Westermen unite under the Lannisters?

They are probably the most hated house in the realm, who would unite with them?

And why would anyone choose the Lannisters over a Stag or Dragon?

 

Because the Lannisters won the war, and backing them is the quickest way back to peace. You have Jaime subduing the Riverlands, and while some Riverlords are angry they aren't willing to go back to war. The Stormlands for the most part has gone back to the throne, save Storm's End.

 

You think they are the most hated in the realm, doesn't make it so. The heads of house Tyrell, Arryn, Bolton, Baelish and Baratheon (the Great Houses) have no problem with them. The Martells don't, on paper. The Greyjoys don't have anything personal against them, though they are in open rebellion. And the best way to deal with the Greyjoys is with the Redwyne fleet i.e. the Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Even with Kevan why would anybody throughout the realm that's not a Westermen unite under the Lannisters?

They are probably the most hated house in the realm, who would unite with them?

And why would anyone choose the Lannisters over a Stag or Dragon?

 

A Lannister married to a Tyrell is the best bet for peace and long term stability. The two most powerful Houses from the two most powerful realms beats all except actual Dragons.

[lyannaisalive]

 

Because the Lannisters won the war, and backing them is the quickest way back to peace. You have Jaime subduing the Riverlands, and while some Riverlords are angry they aren't willing to go back to war. The Stormlands for the most part has gone back to the throne, save Storm's End.

 

You think they are the most hated in the realm, doesn't make it so. The heads of house Tyrell, Arryn, Bolton, Baelish and Baratheon (the Great Houses) have no problem with them. The Martells don't, on paper. The Greyjoys don't have anything personal against them, though they are in open rebellion. And the best way to deal with the Greyjoys is with the Redwyne fleet i.e. the Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

There is one big problem with all of this, Tywin is no longer alive. And that lannister-tyrell alliance doesnt mean anything to Cersei. SHe refused to send the fleet  until Loras said hed take DS. Lysa is in Littlefingers grasp, he will turn on them. And you dont think Stannis, the person who is fighting for the IT has a problem with the Lannisters, come on be real. And the martellls hate them more than anybody. They murdered Dorans family, the sand snakes hold them responsible for Oberyns death. None of your statement is supported by fact.  

[lyannaisalive]

 

A Lannister married to a Tyrell is the best bet for peace and long term stability. The two most powerful Houses from the two most powerful realms beats all except actual Dragons.

A lannister isnt married to the Tyrells. 

[Lion of the West]

1.The hoares ruled the iron islands and riverlands, thats a good chunk and often fought against the vale, westerlands and the reach. And was successful until the Targs defeated him. 

 

2. The only reason the Lannisters had the relationship with the faith is because Cersei was going to use it to bring down Marg, the only thing tying the Tyrells to the IT. 

 

2.1  :cheers:

 

2.2. They aren't united. What we as readers know, they are not. The north (about a third of westeros) is in rebellion. That alone means they are not united. We as readers know the IB are still in open rebellion and actually threaten Highgarden at the moment. Two of the seven kingdoms in open rebellion cannot support the theory of a mostly united kingdom its the seven kingdoms not the 5 and hopefully soon to be 7. The stormlands are with Aegon and according to them at least some of the reach is also with them. When your kings lands (baratheon lands) are not behind you it isnt a united kingdom. 

 

2.3. That plotting is coming to a head. It appears that they will be joining Aegon or Dany. The sand snakes are going to KL and are going to mess things up. Dorne isnt just plotting any more, they are acting. 

 

2.4 They dont need Tommen, not with (f)Aegon at Storms end. In fact the Lannisters rule (baratheons really) rely on the Tyrells at this point. They are providing food, equipment and most importantly soldiers. Not to mention the common folk love Marg. 

 

2.5 IN the sample chapter he has control of Storms end. with and army in the storm lands, its safe to say they are under his control. 

 

2.6. I'm not trying to argue there weren't hard times under targ rule. But the realm remained intact, it was hardly chaos as it appears to be now. 

 

3. What if tywin joins before the trident?. You don't think his men would have made a difference or he himself? Why not put Aegon on the thorne under the regent of Jon Arryn? They could have had a Targ raised by themselves. Why not marry the daughter ( I apologize for some reason her name is escaping me) to Robb or Roberts (future son?) or JOns possible future son with Lysa. There were options but hose were thrown out the window after the Targ children were murdered, by who? oh yeah, Tywin Lannister. Who was named queen after that?

 

4. I will reluctantly concede this point. However it does support the fact that the Lannisters are at fault for the fall of the realm. Cersei actively tried to kill robert, the ONLY person keeping the realm together. Everything that has happened, a big part is on her shoulders. 

 

1. They were successful yes, but I don't see them as more successful than any other House that ruled the Riverlands at some point back in the day.

 

2. I don't think that the growing power of the High Sparrow would have been easily checked by even Tywin, so some form of relationship, even a hostile one, would have been unavoidable. Or at least I think so.

 

2.2 I disagree because you are running before the narrative in several places. Much of what you mention COULD happen but in Asoiaf we know that just because something could happen, it don't mean that it will happen.

 

2.3 About time but when looking at what their past acting has lead to its a dead Oberyn, a dead Quentyn and a mutilated Myrchella, and so I think that it don't look very promesing for their plans to be executed with great precision. To this we should also remember that if Dornish forces joins a Targaryen pretender, the Dornish representative on the Small Council had better pack the bags quickly.

 

2.4 True, however what other House than Lannister and King Tommen will allow the Tyrells to get so close to power with their recent history? If they want to a say at court, they will need to stick with Tommen or make some incredible diplomatic feat.

 

2.5 Not really but he has the possibility of gathering them under his control. Remember that Stannis held Storm's End previously but that wasn't enough to make all the Stormlords keep faith with him after the Blackwater. So I will say that taking Storm's End is a major step, and perhaps the most important step, to get he Stormlands but its isn't the very same thing.

 

2.6 And I disagree. The chaos of historical times only look more transitory because we know what the end was. In a hundred years from now people might look back on the reign of King Tommen and wonder why the people who lived then and there didn't realize how it would eventually turn out. And what I mean is that in a hundred years this chaos will not seem any more uncertain than the chaos experienced during the Dance of the Dragons because people will know how it ended.

 

3. It would have been sweet if Tywin joined with Rhaegar to take down the rebels and then make Aerys a head shorter. Lion and dragon together! But that didn't happen and through experience I have learnt not to dwell to long on roads that were not taken, better instead see where the current path leads.

 

In regards to putting a Targaryen on the throne that would have been suicide for the rebels. You must understand how much family means in Westeros to know that Aegon would have sought vengeance against the killers of his father and grandfather, and so pretty much only laid the foundations for a new war in a decade or two. Now killing the father and marry the daughter is also a viable strategy of course but then again, that could also have lead to the same thing as with Aegon since women are people and agents with a will of their own as well.

[Red Tiger]

3. What if tywin joins before the trident?. You don't think his men would have made a difference or he himself? Why not put Aegon on the thorne under the regent of Jon Arryn? They could have had a Targ raised by themselves. Why not marry the daughter ( I apologize for some reason her name is escaping me) to Robb or Roberts (future son?) or JOns possible future son with Lysa. There were options but hose were thrown out the window after the Targ children were murdered, by who? oh yeah, Tywin Lannister. Who was named queen after that?

Those kids will want vengeance on they grow up. A better solution would have been to send Aegon to the North and to the Watch once he's 12 or so and to have Rhaenys marry Robb like you said.

[Ser Knute]

 

Let me re-phrase it. The best chances to unify the realm is under King Tommen. Is that clearer?

 

I will agree, in case someone thinks I do not, that the realm will only grow more divided under Cersei while Tywin and Kevan had the chance the heal the rifts.

 

So what you're really saying is through Tywin and Kevan, King Tommen had the best chance to unite the realm?  Excuse me while I  :bang: .

 

They're dead.  More than likely Tommen is going to die too.  Even if that wasn't going to be the course of the story, they're not uniting a damn thing, they're dividing the realm big time and creating rifts that will take decades if not more to repair.  The north is not going to forget.  In 300 years even with all the squabbling and including RR, the REALM has not been this divided since before Aegon I ascended to the I.T. and POST any conflict, including the Dance.  I get that you're a homer for the Lannisters but seriously... Unite?  Yep the realm looks real united and I bet Tommen's going to sit the Throne and all will be well after everyone else involved (i.e. anyone not House Lannister) is going to SAVE the realm.  I mean, this is choice... haven't laughed this hard for awhile.

[Lion of the West]

 

So what you're really saying is through Tywin and Kevan, King Tommen had the best chance to unite the realm?  Excuse me while I  :bang: .

 

They're dead.  More than likely Tommen is going to die too.  Even if that wasn't going to be the course of the story, they're not uniting a damn thing, they're dividing the realm big time and creating rifts that will take decades if not more to repair.  The north is not going to forget.  In 300 years even with all the squabbling and including RR, the REALM has not been this divided since before Aegon I ascended to the I.T. and POST any conflict, including the Dance.  I get that you're a homer for the Lannisters but seriously... Unite?  Yep the realm looks real united and I bet Tommen's going to sit the Throne and all will be well after everyone else involved (i.e. anyone not House Lannister) is going to SAVE the realm.  I mean, this is choice... haven't laughed this hard for awhile.

 

I am saying that:

 

Stannis is to rigid and is a spent card anyway.

 

Euron is off the charts

 

Aegon seems very vengeful so that might work against a mending of the kingdom

 

Tommen however seems to be a king that people could tolerate and not prone to actions like some others, like Joffrey, to alienate people to his left and right

 

I am saying that with Tommen, and the united power of the West and Reach which are so far tied to him, lies the biggest possible power block seen in the series and through it the best way to quickly unify the realm. And even with Tywin and Kevan gone I think even the Tyrells, with Tommen as a puppet, would have a better chance of uniting the realm than Stannis or Aegon with JonCon. Because if Tommen isn't at present best candidate to unite the realm I would love to hear why Varys told Kevan that the realm was being united under King Tommen, or what power block could at present hope to match the Westerlands and the Reach, with some extra buddies scattered around?

 

And I am saying that Cersei is the "only" great problem for King Tommen but that she has a good chance to destroy every chance Tommen would have for uniting the realm.

 

I don't know if I've made myself clear but English is not my native language.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

A lannister isnt married to the Tyrells. 

 

True.

 

A Lannister approved Baratheon married to the Tyrells is the strongest possible match. Thanks for correcting me.

[Fat Mac]

There is one big problem with all of this, Tywin is no longer alive. And that lannister-tyrell alliance doesnt mean anything to Cersei. SHe refused to send the fleet  until Loras said hed take DS. Lysa is in Littlefingers grasp, he will turn on them. And you dont think Stannis, the person who is fighting for the IT has a problem with the Lannisters, come on be real. And the martellls hate them more than anybody. They murdered Dorans family, the sand snakes hold them responsible for Oberyns death. None of your statement is supported by fact.  

 

I was somewhat also going off what Sullen said, in regards to Kevan being alive. With Kevan alive, the alliance would hold and things would go back to normal. That's precisely why Varys had him killed.

 

Tommen is the official head of House Baratheon. Of course I didn't mean Stannis.

 

We currently have 7 Lord Paramounts in Westeros.

 

Petyr Baelish- has no problem with the Lannisters as of yet. We can't account for actions that haven't happened.

Cersei Lannister- well obviously

Mace Tyrell- no problem with the Lannisters

Roose Bolton- no problem with the Lannisters

Robert Arryn- no problem with the Lannisters

Tommen Baratheon- again, obvious

Doran Martell- secretly has a problem with the Lannisters

 

There's more support for the Lannisters than there is distaste for them. And it just so happens, the most powerful lord in Westeros who happens to have 80,000 men at his command has no problem with the Lannisters and actually benefits from them.

[lyannaisalive]

 

1. They were successful yes, but I don't see them as more successful than any other House that ruled the Riverlands at some point back in the day.

 

2. I don't think that the growing power of the High Sparrow would have been easily checked by even Tywin, so some form of relationship, even a hostile one, would have been unavoidable. Or at least I think so.

 

2.2 I disagree because you are running before the narrative in several places. Much of what you mention COULD happen but in Asoiaf we know that just because something could happen, it don't mean that it will happen.

 

2.3 About time but when looking at what their past acting has lead to its a dead Oberyn, a dead Quentyn and a mutilated Myrchella, and so I think that it don't look very promesing for their plans to be executed with great precision. To this we should also remember that if Dornish forces joins a Targaryen pretender, the Dornish representative on the Small Council had better pack the bags quickly.

 

2.4 True, however what other House than Lannister and King Tommen will allow the Tyrells to get so close to power with their recent history? If they want to a say at court, they will need to stick with Tommen or make some incredible diplomatic feat.

 

2.5 Not really but he has the possibility of gathering them under his control. Remember that Stannis held Storm's End previously but that wasn't enough to make all the Stormlords keep faith with him after the Blackwater. So I will say that taking Storm's End is a major step, and perhaps the most important step, to get he Stormlands but its isn't the very same thing.

 

2.6 And I disagree. The chaos of historical times only look more transitory because we know what the end was. In a hundred years from now people might look back on the reign of King Tommen and wonder why the people who lived then and there didn't realize how it would eventually turn out. And what I mean is that in a hundred years this chaos will not seem any more uncertain than the chaos experienced during the Dance of the Dragons because people will know how it ended.

 

3. It would have been sweet if Tywin joined with Rhaegar to take down the rebels and then make Aerys a head shorter. Lion and dragon together! But that didn't happen and through experience I have learnt not to dwell to long on roads that were not taken, better instead see where the current path leads.

 

In regards to putting a Targaryen on the throne that would have been suicide for the rebels. You must understand how much family means in Westeros to know that Aegon would have sought vengeance against the killers of his father and grandfather, and so pretty much only laid the foundations for a new war in a decade or two. Now killing the father and marry the daughter is also a viable strategy of course but then again, that could also have lead to the same thing as with Aegon since women are people and agents with a will of their own as well.

2. Tywin would have never armed the faith and he would have no qualms about "replacing" the HS. He would have never allowed them to take MArg and the moment they take Cersei he kills every one of them. 

 

2.2 What did I state that we dont  already know? 

 

2.3. Myrcella being mutilated isn't a hindrance. 

 

2.4 Who is going to stop them? If they join (f)aegon or Dany in the future? The Lannisters need the Tyrells. I should clarify, I dont think the Tyrells will end up on the thorn but hey have more options than the Lannisters who have 1, win.

 

2.5 Ill concede here simply because we don't know if he control the stormlands, although controlling the seat of a kingdom is bad, such as Robb losing WF.

 

2.6 well have to agree to disagree here.

 

3. That road is leading toward ruin. Tywin is no longer around nor is Kevan The main branch is fighting an extremely uphill battle, the damge Robb did cannot be understated.

 

Look at Dany. She hates the "usurpers" because they are greedy, disloyal men who murdered her family, according to Viserys. History is in the eye of the beholder. If Aegon is raised with the trith, Aerys was mad and left them no choice he would see that because that's what they would teach him. Besides overthrowing the king only to put his heir on the throne seems like a good move when arguing we did it for the good of the realm.  

[Red Tiger]

 

I was somewhat also going off what Sullen said, in regards to Kevan being alive. With Kevan alive, the alliance would hold and things would go back to normal. That's precisely why Varys had him killed.

 

Tommen is the official head of House Baratheon. Of course I didn't mean Stannis.

 

We currently have 7 Lord Paramounts in Westeros.

 

Petyr Baelish- has no problem with the Lannisters as of yet. We can't account for actions that haven't happened.

Cersei Lannister- well obviously

Mace Tyrell- no problem with the Lannisters

Roose Bolton- no problem with the Lannisters

Robert Arryn- no problem with the Lannisters

Tommen Baratheon- again, obvious

Doran Martell- secretly has a problem with the Lannisters

 

There's more support for the Lannisters than there is distaste for them. And it just so happens, the most powerful lord in Westeros who happens to have 80,000 men at his command has no problem with the Lannisters and actually benefits from them.

Lack of distaste =/= support

 

Many of those lords paramount would turn their back on the Lannisters the minute they were no longer useful

[lyannaisalive]

 

I was somewhat also going off what Sullen said, in regards to Kevan being alive. With Kevan alive, the alliance would hold and things would go back to normal. That's precisely why Varys had him killed.

 

Tommen is the official head of House Baratheon. Of course I didn't mean Stannis.

 

We currently have 7 Lord Paramounts in Westeros.

 

Petyr Baelish- has no problem with the Lannisters as of yet. We can't account for actions that haven't happened.

Cersei Lannister- well obviously

Mace Tyrell- no problem with the Lannisters

Roose Bolton- no problem with the Lannisters

Robert Arryn- no problem with the Lannisters

Tommen Baratheon- again, obvious

Doran Martell- secretly has a problem with the Lannisters

 

There's more support for the Lannisters than there is distaste for them. And it just so happens, the most powerful lord in Westeros who happens to have 80,000 men at his command has no problem with the Lannisters and actually benefits from them.

I agree about Kevan, IF, Cersei went to CR. With her in KL it would have failed. 

 

LF- ill concede because like you said we cant preict the future

Mace Tyrell- the Lannisters allowed his daughter to be imprisoned, Cersei refused to aid the reach and she is reneging on all their agreements made with Tywin. 

Roose Bolton- He is irrelevant at this point. Stannis is in the north, and Cersei doesn't care what happens to him, their relationship means squat. 

Rob Arryn- irrelevant. HE has no power as he is also a child 

Tommen- again irrelevant. Hes a child controlled by his mother he has no power. 

Doran- its no secret. But we as readers know he is acting against them. That is undeniable, end of story. 

 

Cersei is destroying the Tyrell-Lannister alliance. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Lack of distaste =/= support

 

Many of those lords paramount would turn their back on the Lannisters the minute they were no longer useful

 

Sure. That seems to be a common occurrence, people in power usually only have it so long as they are useful to the people serving them, especially new dynasties

 

If the Lannisters are not benefiting them why should they go out of their way to do the same.

[Winter's Cold]

 

I was somewhat also going off what Sullen said, in regards to Kevan being alive. With Kevan alive, the alliance would hold and things would go back to normal. That's precisely why Varys had him killed.

 

Tommen is the official head of House Baratheon. Of course I didn't mean Stannis.

 

We currently have 7 Lord Paramounts in Westeros.

 

Petyr Baelish- has no problem with the Lannisters as of yet. We can't account for actions that haven't happened.

Cersei Lannister- well obviously

Mace Tyrell- no problem with the Lannisters

Roose Bolton- no problem with the Lannisters

Robert Arryn- no problem with the Lannisters

Tommen Baratheon- again, obvious

Doran Martell- secretly has a problem with the Lannisters

 

There's more support for the Lannisters than there is distaste for them. And it just so happens, the most powerful lord in Westeros who happens to have 80,000 men at his command has no problem with the Lannisters and actually benefits from them.

 

Petyr Baelish - killed Joffrey Baratheon, hiding Sansa Stark

Cersei Lannister - incompetent Regent that aims to destroy the alliance with the Tyrells

Mace Tyrell - home territory is under attack by the Ironborn

Roose Bolton - facing a rebellion, cannot assist the Iron Throne

Robert Arryn - under the influence of Petyr Baelish, no ties to the Lannisters

Tommen Baratheon - home territory is under attack by Aegon Targaryen

Doran Martell - plotting to overthrow the Iron Throne using a Targaryen

 

The Lannisters are clearly doing a great job uniting the realm. Robert Baratheon himself would be impressed at their success.

[Sullen]

 

Petyr Baelish - killed Joffrey Baratheon, hiding Sansa Stark

Cersei Lannister - incompetent Regent that aims to destroy the alliance with the Tyrells

Mace Tyrell - home territory is under attack by the Ironborn

Roose Bolton - facing a rebellion, cannot assist the Iron Throne

Robert Arryn - under the influence of Petyr Baelish, no ties to the Lannisters

Tommen Baratheon - home territory is under attack by Aegon Targaryen

Doran Martell - plotting to overthrow the Iron Throne using a Targaryen

 

The Lannisters are clearly doing a great job uniting the realm. Robert Baratheon himself would be impressed at their success.

 

That is more than any other candidate has though, which is the point.

 

Nobody said uniting the realm would be easy, simply that the Tommen is the one in the best position to do so.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Or do you just want this discussion to be one-sided were we all complain how awful Tywin is?

 

That's what people seem to want in any discussion about Tywin

 

What you say it's like saying we all come to a board to complain how awful Hitler is.

 

We can say that Tywin Lannister was a good commander, that he inspired loyalty/fear in his followers, that he always did what he did for the good of the Realm or whatever. All of that is debatable. Him being an awful human being is not. He punished his son who married an innocent girl by ordering to rape her and then, he went and had sex with the prostitute he knew his son had feelings for. And that's only the things we've seen through a pov, I'm not counting, for example, whatever happened with Elia's children and Elia herself, or the fact he unleashed his sadistic rapist dog whenever there is war because obviously that raping peasants is determinative to winning wars.

 

Tywiin Lannister was despised by everyone. That's telling. Unless of course you want to say all of them were "jealous". The only people who praised him were those who feared him and the family that felt safe under his wings. Not even his children are mourning him: Cersei couldn't care less, Tyrion was the one who killed him and Jaime is more haunted by the death of Rhaegar than his own father's.

[lyannaisalive]

 

That is more than any other candidate has though, which is the point.

 

Nobody said uniting the realm would be easy, simply that the Tommen is the one in the best position to do so.

he is also facing the most threats, its a double edged sword, and its not going his way. 

[Sullen]

he is also facing the most threats, its a double edged sword, and its not going his way. 

 

More threats are on their way as well (Others and Dany), but I'm not sure Tommen is the one they'll go for first. (If he's still alive by the time they arrive)

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

 

What you say it's like saying we all come to a board to complain how awful Hitler is.

 

Not really. Tywin has done awful things, no one is denying that but this discussion is about two characters and it is all about how awful mean old Tywin is ignoring some of the shitty things Bloodraven did.

 

Tywin hurt the characters you like while Bloodraven didn't so few cares about his misdemeanour's, as all people want to do is call Tywin Hitler.  Goodwin strikes again.