Who was a ''better person'': Brynden Rivers or Tywin Lannister?

[Cragen]

Men who make his son kill him is worst in my eyes.

[Lion of the West]

 

Why ? 

 

Maybe I'm slow today, but which part is the "why" directed at?

 

2. Tywin would have never armed the faith and he would have no qualms about "replacing" the HS. He would have never allowed them to take MArg and the moment they take Cersei he kills every one of them. 

 

2.2 What did I state that we dont  already know? 

 

2.3. Myrcella being mutilated isn't a hindrance. 

 

2.4 Who is going to stop them? If they join (f)aegon or Dany in the future? The Lannisters need the Tyrells. I should clarify, I dont think the Tyrells will end up on the thorn but hey have more options than the Lannisters who have 1, win.

 

2.5 Ill concede here simply because we don't know if he control the stormlands, although controlling the seat of a kingdom is bad, such as Robb losing WF.

 

2.6 well have to agree to disagree here.

 

3. That road is leading toward ruin. Tywin is no longer around nor is Kevan The main branch is fighting an extremely uphill battle, the damge Robb did cannot be understated.

 

Look at Dany. She hates the "usurpers" because they are greedy, disloyal men who murdered her family, according to Viserys. History is in the eye of the beholder. If Aegon is raised with the trith, Aerys was mad and left them no choice he would see that because that's what they would teach him. Besides overthrowing the king only to put his heir on the throne seems like a good move when arguing we did it for the good of the realm.  

2.While its true that Tywin wouldn have armed the Faith I understood the situation that the Faith and pretty much armed itself and the High Sparrow force-armed the Most Devout to name him the High Septon. And while its true that Tywin wouldn't have allowed them to take Margaery and Cersei without a fight, I recall that these events only transpired due to Cersei's incompetent plotting.

 

The issue with the Faith Militant is both that it appeared on its own, and I think that it might have been a difficult thing to smack down on them with military force, especially when the royalist soldiers were needed on so many places. I don't remember the exact details but I think that the memory of the riots during the Dance of the Dragons might have worked to restrain both Lannister and Tyrell from going all-out in an urban battle with the Faith Militant that could have ignited a pot of wildfire.

 

2.2 Let me re-phrase it. The realm may not be 100% united but its still much more united than divided and the vast majority still pay homage to King Tommen.

 

2.3 No, but it say something of Martell when put together with the others. My honest answer is that the Dornish have been out of the game for to long to jump straight back into it without a dangerous trial and error period before they get to work as smoothly as they should have been doing from the start.

 

2.4 The Tyrells may have more options but those options are only to get kicked out from court again, and the present Tyrell crew don't strike me as a bunch who will just lie down and accept that. Not to mention that they could well face some severe punishment from a Targaryen monarch with followers to rewards and the knowledge that the Tyrells happily went to bed with both Baratheon and Lannisters.

 

2.5 I agree.

 

2.6 Ok.

 

3. I'm not sure what damage Robb did. Internal fighting between the Lannisters have done most of the damage to House Lannister as far as I can see, that and the double-edged plotting of Littlefinger and Varys.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Men who make his son kill him is worst in my eyes.

 

There must be somehow a sort of metaphor saying that a man's achievement is reflected by his children. It's not just that his three children are a failure but they are barely bothered by the fact he's dead. My father was not a good father at all and many of his actions hurt me badly and yet I cried him a lot when he died.

[Jasta11]

 

The Catnapping was the first openly hostile action of the War.

 

The Starks/Tully's are responsible with officially starting the conflict, though Tywin's excessive response sure as hell escalated it.

 

Eddard then refuses both Renly's and Littlefinger's offers of keeping Joffrey on the throne, ensuring total war was going to happen.

 

The Stark/Tully alliance is just as guilty as the Lannisters in starting the war.

 

The Catnapping is a result of the (then mounting) evidence that the Lannisters attempted to murder Bran in Winterfell itself (which is true, just not applying to Tyrion) and Jon Arryn (which was false, but encouraged by both Lysa and Littlefinger). It was grounds for a diplomatic crisis, but was not an act of war. Catelyn arrest Tyrion based on legal grounds due to her (false in hindsight, yet understandable) suspicions, and the fact that GRRM says it was a grey area means that this was a semi-valid pretention at least. Tywin directly attacked the Riverlands with fire and sword. I'd say that was a far more direct act of war.

 

Jaime assaulting Ned in the streets of KL without even a pretense of law is also worse than the Catnapping will ever be to me anyway.

 

Eddard wanting to oust Joff is a direct reaction to the treason of Cercei and Jaime, and the biggest escalating point of the war was when Joff killed Ned. He did let his honor blind him, but Joffrey in fact wasn't the rightful king.

 

I'm not saying the Starks are blameless, but as much as the Lannisters? Does not compute. 

 

More on topic, I also never believed that Tywin simply forgot to give orders about Elia. This does not match the character at all. He is highly meticulous and calculating, but when ordering two babes to be murdered he conveniently forgets about their mother, the princess who will almost certainly be with her children, especially if she fears for their life as the city is attacked? I am simply not buying that, not for a second. Combined with the fact that we know Tywin has a petty and vengeful streak and that he does everything in his power to keep his PR face at all times (such as calling the RW a dozen dead at dinner when thousands were killed), and it seems likely that he fell back to this excuse in order to avoid admitting he had a grudge towards the one who broke his dream Cercei/Rheagar marriage pact.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

There must be somehow a sort of metaphor saying that a man's achievement is reflected by his children. It's not just that his three children are a failure but they are barely bothered by the fact he's dead. My father was not a good father at all and many of his actions hurt me badly and yet I cried him a lot when he died.

 

eh, Cersei and Jaime are clearly bothered about him being dead. Not sure why you and others have come to this conclusion.

 

And are they really failures? Cersei was Queen of Westeros, Regent of Westeros, mother of two Kings, Jaime is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and Tyrion both Acting Hand and member of the Small Council as Master of Coin. They are hardly failures as they have all risen quite high.

[Whitering]

Brynden would never sentence 12 year old girl to get gang raped for having a fun young marriage with his son.

 

There you go.

[Mithras]

And are they really failures? Cersei was Queen of Westeros, Regent of Westeros, mother of two Kings, 

 

I don't believe anyone can say this with a straight face.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

I don't believe anyone can say this with a straight face.

 

 

You mean type it?

 

You should probably stick to the smiley's, you add just as much to the conversation with them.

[perliouszara]

Bryden is my choice.  What Brynden did was for the good of the realm.  While Tywin's motives were more selfish. 

[Jasta11]

 

 

You mean type it?

 

You should probably stick to the smiley's, you add just as much to the conversation with them.

 

Because Cercei is busy running the Realm into the ground and Jaime's inner monologues make it pretty clear he doesn't care about his family overmuch and wishes to remain a KG.

 

So yes, I would say that they are failures at what they are supposed to do. Cercei much moreso than Jaime, but it's hard to see how one could look at Tywin's progeny and consider them a success.

[nyser1]

Since when is Tywin the epitome of evil? Some of these posts make Ramsay and Aerys look saintly compared to him.

[The Wolves]

Since when is Tywin the epitome of evil? Some of these posts make Ramsay and Aerys look saintly compared to him.

Since he has the most body count in the series and had a girl viciously gang raped for daring to marry a Lannister than had his father's mistress walked across a city for 14 days confessing to "crimes" naked than had to walk naked across the city in order to leave. Also he had Elia and her babies murdered and sacked KL causing the rape and murder of many men, women, and children. Than he let loose the likes of Gregory on the Riverlands.

Plus murdering the Reynes and Tarbeck children and servents.

Ramsey and Aerys are saints compared to that monster. Tywin IS the epitome of evil especially in the books he's a freak and monster. He gets praised because he's managed to be lucky throughout his reign and get away with atrocities.

[Boarsbane]

Since he has the most body count in the series and had a girl viciously gang raped for daring to marry a Lannister than had his father's mistress walked across a city for 14 days confessing to "crimes" naked than had to walk naked across the city in order to leave. Also he had Elia and her babies murdered and sacked KL causing the rape and murder of many men, women, and children. Than he let loose the likes of Gregory on the Riverlands.
Plus murdering the Reynes and Tarbeck children and servents.
Ramsey and Aerys are saints compared to that monster. Tywin IS the epitome of evil especially in the books he's a freak and monster. He gets praised because he's managed to be lucky throughout his reign and get away with atrocities.

It's so idiotic to say he, or anyone, has the biggest body count in the series. We have no idea how many people his soldiers killed on his campaign. Was it anymore than Robb's army? Maybe, maybe not. Calling Aerys and Ramsay saints just shows how ridiculously biased towards the Northmen and Targaryens.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Since he has the most body count in the series and had a girl viciously gang raped for daring to marry a Lannister than had his father's mistress walked across a city for 14 days confessing to "crimes" naked than had to walk naked across the city in order to leave. Also he had Elia and her babies murdered and sacked KL causing the rape and murder of many men, women, and children. Than he let loose the likes of Gregory on the Riverlands.

Plus murdering the Reynes and Tarbeck children and servents.

Ramsey and Aerys are saints compared to that monster. Tywin IS the epitome of evil especially in the books he's a freak and monster. He gets praised because he's managed to be lucky throughout his reign and get away with atrocities.

How we judging body count for me dany has the highest easily.

Sacks happen when you take a city sorry just the way it is, sadly the kids did have to go, gregor and the like is war more brutal than usual but still war,Reynes and Tarbecks caused their own downfall. No defending rape of Tyhsa or the mistress' walk really.

[nyser1]

i do not see how he is intentionally malicious towards those around him based purely out of desire (i.e Joff or Ramsay). I do not think he enjoyed killing the tarbeck and reyne subjects, but saw that he ends justified the means (in that instance). Regarding the deceptive peace banner and supposed order to nurder the royal family, i thibk he believed the ends justified the means. He had to prove his loyalty and the aftermath would have been expexted in war. Troops do not get high wages, so it would be his way of keeping their loyalty. I'm not saying he was right or that he was good, he certainly falls on the evil side. However, I do not think he spent his time dreaming about skinning prostitutes or sacking towns for kicks and giggles.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Because Cercei is busy running the Realm into the ground and Jaime's inner monologues make it pretty clear he doesn't care about his family overmuch and wishes to remain a KG.

 

So yes, I would say that they are failures at what they are supposed to do. Cercei much moreso than Jaime, but it's hard to see how one could look at Tywin's progeny and consider them a success.

 

So none of the Kingsguard members cared about their families? Or that none can be considered successes?

 

And yeah, he does think about his father, we see the guilt at his death.

 

"When did you last sleep, my lord?"

"When my lord father was alive," said Jaime.

"Allow me to stand tonight in your stead," Ser Loras offered.

"He was not your father." You did not kill him. I did. Tyrion may have loosed the crossbow bolt that slew him, but I loosed Tyrion. "Leave me."

 

That had he known what Tyrion was planning he would have killed him.

 

He never said he meant to kill our father. If he had, I would have stopped him. Then I would be the kinslayer, not him.

 

AFFC is pretty much dominated by the memory of Tywin from his children and later his sister, I'm not sure how JonCons red beard can claim that his death had no effect on them.

 

The funeral procession departed King's Landing through the Gate of the Gods, wider and more splendid than the Lion Gate. The choice felt wrong to Jaime. His father had been a lion, that no one could deny, but even Lord Tywin never claimed to be a god.

 

"I came to make my farewells. He was my father."

 

 

Cersei is a success, she has risen as high as a woman can in Westeros. She's queen, she made her own Small Council and many on here complain that she was even controlling Robert when he was alive.

 

The idea that Tywins children are failures is kind of bizarre, they have all risen high in this society, Jaime was regarded as one the greatest warriors alive, Tyrion famed for his intelligence, Cersei the most powerful woman alive yet none of that is accredited to Tywin yet all their failings (as adults) are.

[The Wolves]

i do not see how he is intentionally malicious towards those around him based purely out of desire (i.e Joff or Ramsay). I do not think he enjoyed killing the tarbeck and reyne subjects, but saw that he ends justified the means (in that instance). Regarding the deceptive peace banner and supposed order to nurder the royal family, i thibk he believed the ends justified the means. He had to prove his loyalty and the aftermath would have been expexted in war. Troops do not get high wages, so it would be his way of keeping their loyalty. I'm not saying he was right or that he was good, he certainly falls on the evil side. However, I do not think he spent his time dreaming about skinning prostitutes or sacking towns for kicks and giggles.

Just because he's not giggling and daydreaming up atrocities to committ doesn't mean he's not the worse.

Tywin was unnecessarily brutal to everyone his family/people/realm/innocents.

I hate the saying "the ends justify the means" it's a crappy saying used to excuse the worse crimes.

And the constant defense that Tywin had to prove his loyalty to the rebels is again some bullshit to the highest when the Greyjoys/Tyrells/Martells/ didn't have to murder any innocent women or children and lay them at the bottom of the throne in their house colors. To defend that action is gross. Again Tywin is the worse.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
So none of the Kingsguard members cared about their families? Or that none can be considered successes?
 
And yeah, he does think about his father, we see the guilt at his death.
 
"When did you last sleep, my lord?"
"When my lord father was alive," said Jaime.
"Allow me to stand tonight in your stead," Ser Loras offered.
"He was not your father." You did not kill him. I did. Tyrion may have loosed the crossbow bolt that slew him, but I loosed Tyrion. "Leave me."
 
That had he known what Tyrion was planning he would have killed him.
 
He never said he meant to kill our father. If he had, I would have stopped him. Then I would be the kinslayer, not him.
 
AFFC is pretty much dominated by the memory of Tywin from his children and later his sister, I'm not sure how JonCons red beard can claim that his death had no effect on them.
 
The funeral procession departed King's Landing through the Gate of the Gods, wider and more splendid than the Lion Gate. The choice felt wrong to Jaime. His father had been a lion, that no one could deny, but even Lord Tywin never claimed to be a god.
 
 
Cersei is a success, she has risen as high as a woman can in Westeros. She's queen, she made her own Small Council and many on here complain that she was even controlling Robert when he was alive.
 
The idea that Tywins children are failures is kind of bizarre, they have all risen high in this society, Jaime was regarded as one the greatest warriors alive, Tyrion famed for his intelligence, Cersei the most powerful woman alive yet none of that is accredited to Tywin yet all their failings (as adults) are.

Cersei is on trial for incest regicide murder etc tyrion killed his father and is being actively hunted and the best jaime is a one armed kg despised by many who lost his part. Calling them failures is fair.

[nyser1]

Just because he's not giggling and daydreaming up atrocities to committ doesn't mean he's not the worse.

Tywin was unnecessarily brutal to everyone his family/people/realm/innocents.

I hate the saying "the ends justify the means" it's a crappy saying used to excuse the worse crimes.

And the constant defense that Tywin had to prove his loyalty to the rebels is again some bullshit to the highest when the Greyjoys/Tyrells/Martells/ didn't have to murder any innocent women or children and lay them at the bottom of the throne in their house colors. To defend that action is gross. Again Tywin is the worse.

Not very convincing, we are all entitled to our own opinions though. Agree to disagree 😀

Edit: For the sake of the thread I do believe the Bloodraven was a better person thab Tywin (from what we know, looking at their lives as a whole).

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Cersei is on trial for incest regicide murder etc tyrion killed his father and is being actively hunted and the best jaime is a one armed kg despised by many who lost his part. Calling them failures is fair.

 

 

No, not really.  Usually people being a success or failure is dependent on their achievements and not how likeable they are.  That is why Presidents and political leaders are judged to be more successful than winners of Pop Idol (though you probably disagree).

 

Jaime has had 20 years in the Kingsguard and has risen to become the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. He has had a successful life and is still alive and in a position to do more.

 

Cersei has been queen for almost two decades, she is the mother of two kings and was Regent of the country. She has risen as high as a woman can in Westeros and she too is still alive and in a position to do more.

 

Tyrion has both been the acting Hand of the Kingdom, a Master of Coin and had a key role in the Battle of Blackwater. He to is still alive and in a position to do more.

 

They have all achieved prominent and important positions in their life. Sitting on the Small Council, being Lord Commander are not things you associate with failure.