Mel can't revive Jon

[Lord Varys]

Raving Stark the Mad,

 

it seems that Jon's specific form of death and resurrection has a built-in mechanism to cheat death there. Unlike Beric and Catelyn he will not be called back from beyond, he won't venture into non-existence and then come back (perhaps fundamentally) changed. Instead, he'll most likely sit out his own death safe and sound - at least metaphysically - in Ghost.

 

In that sense, I don't think it matters all that much whether Jon's body is killed or only heavily injured. Unless we assume that a prolonged stay in Ghost doesn't change him fundamentally, making him more animal-like and wolfish, his feelings of betrayal, pain, and revenge after his return to his human body would be the same whether his body was now 'dead' or just so damaged that his spirit couldn't return into it. It may be that all Jon ever feels about his death is what we already witnessed in his last chapter. The pain and the shock from the stab wounds, his last thoughts about Arya, and then the cold. If the next thing he remembers is 'arriving' in Ghost then this wasn't that huge a trauma or a transformational experience.

 

And strictly speaking death and resurrection is just a subcategory of magical transformational experiences that other people went through, and we really don't know exactly what happened to them or what it did to them. For instance, was Drogo's brain deliberately fried by Mirri Maz Duur or was that only a reaction or side effect of the spell? Was Victarion's spell only healing Victarion's infection and transforming his arm or was he also fundamentally changed on a mental and physical level? Is it the experience of death or a side effect of the resurrection spell that made Beric and Catelyn the way their are? Was Beric fundamentally different from a dementia patient, or can we describe as such? In what mental way was Catelyn changed exactly? Does she suffer from memory loss, too, or has she just lost lots of human emotions (it doesn't seem as if he memory suffered all that much since she seems to remember various Freys and their involvement in the Red Wedding as well as Brienne and Jaime)?

I think even a lesser scale magical ritual can have the same potential of transformation as a resurrection. Say, a healing spell that brings you back from certain death - it can change you in a similar way on the same level, and you may not even be aware of it. 

 

I may be wrong there, but I don't think George is only considering death and resurrection a fundamental change. Or rather, he is trying to portray death and resurrection as a fundamental change in the sense that Tolkien did not. Gandalf is exactly the same character before and after his death and resurrection, which means that the whole experience was actually pointless from a character development perspective. In George's case this clearly isn't the case. Death has a tremendous effect on people, and part of it may be to fundamentally change a character in a way another experience could not. But I don't think Jon will fit into that character. His spirit seems to be be quite safe. Whether it is later a great thing to live in a half-dead body or in a body that has been transformed by magical fire into a smoking ruin is another matter entirely.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Raving Stark the Mad,

 

it seems that Jon's specific form of death and resurrection has a built-in mechanism to cheat death there. Unlike Beric and Catelyn he will not be called back from beyond, he won't venture into non-existence and then come back (perhaps fundamentally) changed. Instead, he'll most likely sit out his own death safe and sound - at least metaphysically - in Ghost.

But why?  Why have Jon die at all, if he is to come back fundamentally UNchanged?  What would be the point of his death?  How would it further the plot, or effect the narrative?  What would be the emotional payoff to the reader?  What is the dramatic purpose? 

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not a big buyer-in to the "escape to Ghost" theory.  What you have described is a dodge.  A cop-out.  Not only an escape from death, but an escape from established plot. 

 

 

And strictly speaking death and resurrection is just a subcategory of magical transformational experiences that other people went through, and we really don't know exactly what happened to them or what it did to them.

 

In some cases, we do know exactly what happened to them, through POV.  In some cases not.  In Victarion's case, though the POV cuts away from him personally during his "healing", we can see that Victarion does not seem to consider himself changed in any way.  In Catelyn's case, her POV ends with her death.  But what we can do is observe their behavior, and infer psychological changes from any changes in behavior. 

 

Beric exhibits amnesia, and a gradual loss of "self" similar to Alzheimer's.  Lady Stoneheart appears as a revenge driven revenant of her former character, due to her behavior. 

 

The point is, that despite we do not know the extent of the psychological changes, we can infer that they do exist, due to the changes in behavior, or admitted changes. 

[Esa1996]

The vast majority of fans, books and show, seem to take it as a given that Jon is as dead as Ned. 

You sure? I have never met anyone who has read the books who thought him dead for good. Show watchers may not remember all the resurrection stuff from earlier books (And don't know the parts that were omitted from the show), nor do they have some of the prophecy stuff to give them hints so I understand if they think him dead.

[Faydra]

You sure? I have never met anyone who has read the books who thought him dead for good. Show watchers may not remember all the resurrection stuff from earlier books (And don't know the parts that were omitted from the show), nor do they have some of the prophecy stuff to give them hints so I understand if they think him dead.

 

Plenty of people think that he's truly dead but will end up resurrected. Search old threads if I'm not convincing. 

[Mithras]

I definitely agree that it would be impossible to tell if any future action was caused by external causes, or from inner growth or choice.  But part of this question is wrapped up in the conflict between the ideas of free will and determinism, and materialistic reductionism and moderate immaterialism.  There is no use starting down that rabbit hole because it goes so deep that we'll be in the nursing home together still talking about it. 

 

What I am unsure of is whether resurrection causes a complete break in character, defined as the narrative instrument, as opposed to a break in character, as element of psyche.  I agree that there is a break in the continuity, and radical alteration of the character of the character, IE the psyche.  But I'm unsure if there is a complete break between the character, or rather that it is just a sort of transformation. 

 

Let's look at Catelyn and Lady Stoneheart.  Stoneheart is no longer simply Catelyn Stark.  Yet, at the same time, she is.  Stoneheart has the same body, same memories, similar aspects of personality.  We may suppose that there is no other Catelyn Stark running around in the seven heavens.   But Stoneheart is a radically altered form of Catelyn Stark.  Consider the idea of metamorphosis.  The butterfly is still the same being as the caterpillar, but is no longer a caterpillar.  So Stoneheart is the same character as Catelyn, but radically changed, mentally altered through no conscious participatory event. 

 

Really, it's hard for me to tell.  :dunno:  

 

Resurrection is a different process than other types of character transformations we see. For example in the cases of Sansa to Alayne and Arya to no one, the characters have agency. They willingly embrace their new identities. They are given several chances to leave that path but they stay and choose to be transformed.

 

In resurrection, both the death and the resurrection are completely out of the hands of the character. That is why it looks like a discontinuity. For Arya and Sansa, we cannot talk about a discontinuity in their characters.

 

Metamorphosis is a natural part of the life cycle of the butterflies. It comes from within. The potential of being a butterfly is always inside a caterpillar and it becomes one when the time is due. I don’t think we can say that the potential of being LS was always in Cat.

 

This is why healing is a much more compelling option for Jon. Remember, Bran made a choice in that 3EC dream (Fly or Die). He chose life. He allowed the 3EC to heal him. He could have chosen death and vanished.

[chrisdaw]

Bran will resurrect him, that's what the Winged Wolf does to the hero slain by his brothers.

[desire]

He seems to be dead yes. So was Beric, seven times.

He does, however, still have his head.

LOL

[Mithras]

I may be wrong there, but I don't think George is only considering death and resurrection a fundamental change. Or rather, he is trying to portray death and resurrection as a fundamental change in the sense that Tolkien did not. Gandalf is exactly the same character before and after his death and resurrection, which means that the whole experience was actually pointless from a character development perspective. In George's case this clearly isn't the case. Death has a tremendous effect on people, and part of it may be to fundamentally change a character in a way another experience could not. But I don't think Jon will fit into that character. His spirit seems to be be quite safe. Whether it is later a great thing to live in a half-dead body or in a body that has been transformed by magical fire into a smoking ruin is another matter entirely.

 

You are wrong. There are significant differences between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White.

[Mithras]

If the next thing he remembers is 'arriving' in Ghost then this wasn't that huge a trauma or a transformational experience.

 

Except it will be the perfect time for the descent to the underworld (crypts).  Jon will wake up with the knowledge of his true parentage.

[Lord Varys]

Raving Stark the Mad,

 

Mel's vision of the man, the wold, and the man, Borroq's presence at Castle Black, and the establishment of the the fact that skinchangers always recognize each other even in animal form are strong hints pointing towards that 'cop-out'. It would be George's cop-out, not mine, and as I've said earlier, I don't really like this assassination plot at all. If Jon doesn't stay dead it is just a bad plot device. And he does not seem to stay dead.

 

However, the Ghost thing would also happen if Jon is not dead but merely in a coma. The hints are too strong to expect anything else there, and it would be a rather big stretch to assume that the situation at the Wall will be resolved in a way that makes the magical healing of the comatose/near-dead/believed to be dead former Lord Commander a top priority.

 

We have to ask ourselves: As things are established in ADwD - do we think that Varamyr being able to take over Thistle's body to save himself or Varamyr being able to jump into another body from One Eye somehow would constitute a fundamental death-like trauma or did George establish certain metaphysical laws that greatly twist or bend the common rules involving death in the case of the skinchangers? I'd say the latter is the case, and he may have done that to be able to portray Jon's death effectively as a 'non-death'. Whether you think that's great storytelling is another matter entirely.

 

I agree that changes in character should be able to be perceived by others if they show erratic behavior, but for that you have to consciously reflect how others look at you, behave around your, or treat you. For instance, Daenerys realizes that her people think her mad shortly before she jumps on the pyre but Cersei doesn't really understand that many people surrounding her in AFfC might think the same. Any magical transformation could work on a level that the POV doesn't really understand, and subsequently doesn't/cannot reflect.

 

Mithras,

 

you aren't George himself by any chance? I'm only asking because I think only he would show the amount of confidence in future plot developments most of your postings here show (notable in you overuse of the word 'will' when you are at best speculating about future events).

 

Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White are essentially the same characters. Gandalf the White is more powerful and has the authority to show off his power more, and he has also the authority to replace and depose Saruman, but all that doesn't have any effect on his own character. He is essentially the same guy, has the same interests, the same taste (pipe weed), and the same flaws.

 

As to the potential of Lady Stoneheart:

 

The fact that Catelyn is no Lady Stoneheart proves that she always had had that potential - unless you claim that Lady Stoneheart is now no longer Catelyn Tully Stark but a demon impersonating her/possessing her body. One assumes that she would be on a revenge trip, too, if she had somehow escaped the Twins alive, right?

 

In Jon's case there is a good chance that healing and resurrection will essentially have the same effect since Jon Snow's spirit isn't going to 'die'. The restoration of his body is a trivial thing. It could be that he is still alive, but if his spirit is safe in Ghost, there is little or no reason to not kill the body and magically revive it if the author is going through an assassination scenario. 

[Ser Creighton]

Well it doesn't have to be Mel, no that's true, and as he likes to do Martin has left himself options. Mel would be an obvious choice, it's almost blatant. So you may assume that it's a head fake. Everyone is assuming fire as well, which I don't actually agree with at least right now. A journey is a long thing and there will be many bends and forks in the road. Some say Jon is Ice and fire, and he may be, but you can't be both without representing both. Being born with Northern blood is not the same as having magic fire in you, being a Warg does not represent ice.

 

I think it's safe to say the Wildlings are going to have a bad reaction to Jon being stabbed, and they got the numbers and their deal was with Jon. Maybe they take the wall and maybe Mel is not allowed to get near him, I mean they don't like her for the most part. Now of course Martin set up a scenario in which it looks like he wants to preserve Jon's mind, so whatever happens to his body it would seem he wants his mind preserved for that body no matter what happens to it.

 

So is there a scenario in which Jon's body can take on an aspect of ice and remember this is really about his body not his mind which may go from man to wolf to man. So lets the Wildlings take the wall, or at least Castle black in the near term. What would they do with Jon's body? Well they would probably want to burn it, it's what they do. So where would they burn it? Well there may be a chance they burn it north of the wall. Why? Because that is where Yiggy was burned and Tormund considers her Jon's spear wife, he has actually said that in the books. They don't have to go far from the wall, just a little ways north of it.

 

Could the Others show up? Well I don't see why not, it would not have been hard for them to take Hardhome and you already know that place is doomed. So that does not leave them much to do north of the wall. So they may already be moving south, maybe they show up. Really all Martin would have to do is get Jon north of the wall, and have a reason to burn him north of the wall. Yiggy is a reason, and Tormund may have so much disgust for what happened to Jon that he burns him where he would burn a Wildling which Jon was for a short period of time. He would burn him as a free man. So there is an option there.

 

Next you have the unique character of Jon's name, Jon Snow. It is an interesting name, I wonder why the author chose it? Taking a closer look at the name and Jon, and the story there may be a tell. Sometimes Martin makes little homages to fairy tails, and folk lore with Jon. Jon Barleycorn of course, Snow White, he has the wicked step mother. To an extent of course, they did not get along and he is her step son. Cinderella Jon does not have a glass slipper, but he may aquire a Glass sword (Dawn pale as milk glass.) Yiggy and Jon little Red and the big bad wolf. They are just little plays on it, not the actual stories. So back to Jon's name, Jon Snow. Jon Snow falls very much in line with Jack Frost.

 

1. Every Jon can be Jack, an example JFK and Snow and Frost are near enough that it makes no difference. The names are very close.

 

2. The title of the series is based off a poem by Robert Frost. A poem of Fire and Ice. Some think the series title is about Jon, well there is frost in that title.

 

3. The Winter rose. Jon is often said to be this rose, a rose described in the books as pale as frost. Did you know there is a flower actually called a Jack Frost Rose, it is also very pale.

 

4. If you go through the books you will find some Shakespeare homages in the books, you can find them in the homages thread. Now remember what Dany thinks when she sees the rose growing from the wall. It smells sweet, but if the rose is just symbolic of Jon, then the rose has a name.

 

  "What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

 

A Jack Frost rose.

https://images.searc...&hspart=mozilla

 

5. Again this rose which is symbolic of Jon is described as frost.

 

6. Jack frost represents a changing of seasons and is of course based on Old man winter. He is tied to the harvest just as Jon Barleycorn is. Don't think Disny or childlish fairy tail, think about the Folklore. He is even tied to the Ulster Cycle and there you will find some similarities to the series, most notably the first men. You may even find some locations similar to in the books Inchcleraun and the Gods eye, Dany and Medb the sovereignty goddess, Ailill mac Máta who is killed at the ford because of the Bull who was a warrior. He is tied to Samhain just as the Ulster Cycle is. Samhain is celebrated from sunset on 31 October to sunset on 1 November. You have the transition from saint to soul on Nov 1 and Nov 2. It also takes you into Norse Mythology, Jack Frost is Symbolic of Old man winter, who is symbolic of Woden who finds his roots in Odin. There is even a secret door that faces the winter moon, this door takes you to the other world. So don't think fairy tale but ancient Irish Folklore from the bronze and early iron age, when stories where passed down verbally and ancient runes were carved into ring forts, like Grianan of Aileach.

 

7. Finally what does Jack Frost warn of? The words are actually in Folk tales, "Winter is Coming." Hell there are even old 1940's and 50's cartoons with this.

 

So did Martin do this? Maybe I make no real claim, but the names, the rose, the words, and the folklore make it very interesting, at least for me. So the question is? Is fire in his immediate future or ice? There are options to do both to the body of Jack Snow.

[Esa1996]

 

Plenty of people think that he's truly dead but will end up resurrected. Search old threads if I'm not convincing. 

Ah :D I meant it in a way that he's dead and will stay dead. I too think he's dead but will get resurrected. 

[MotherMerciless]

Her powers grew stronger the closer she came to the Wall. Nuff said.

She will get this power when she needs it.

[MotherMerciless]

Also, I believe Jon will have to accept the resurrection in order for it to happen. He's inside Ghost now, looking at her as she tries to revive him. Jon will have to decide if he stays in Ghost, thus escaping a life full of suffering and responsibilities, or jump back to his own body, andkeep going.

[Ghost of Shireen]

I don't think Mel has the power to resurrect Jon and I don't think Mel thinks she does either. More like he will rise from his funeral pyre not knowing what happened and Mel, because she believes this herself will try to convince him he is Azor Ahai and that he needs to unite with Mance Rayder to defeat King's Landing and the Sparrow because unless he takes out the Seven Gods and establishes Rh'llor as the one true god of the seven Kingdoms he won't be able to defeat the Other.

 

Of course this is all balonie. GRRM has said there aren't any true Gods only true believers but it will be the mechanism which brings Jon south so he can meet Danaerys who will have united with Dorne to defeat the Lannister's and Tyrell's to overtake the South and King's landing.

 

Sam will have discovered Jon's true Targaryan identity and he will be the factor that separates Melisandre and Jon and allies Jon with Dany to defeat the others. Melisandre is just the plot mechanism that will bring them together. After that, she and Rh'llor will become irrelevant.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Raving Stark the Mad,

 

Mel's vision of the man, the wold, and the man, Borroq's presence at Castle Black, and the establishment of the the fact that skinchangers always recognize each other even in animal form are strong hints pointing towards that 'cop-out'. It would be George's cop-out, not mine, and as I've said earlier, I don't really like this assassination plot at all. If Jon doesn't stay dead it is just a bad plot device. And he does not seem to stay dead.

 

Your answer to the big question:

 

 

But why?  Why have Jon die at all, if he is to come back fundamentally UNchanged?  What would be the point of his death?  How would it further the plot, or effect the narrative?  What would be the emotional payoff to the reader?  What is the dramatic purpose? 

 

Well, I'm not sure if you addressed the big questions at all.  By omitting answers I can only guess that your answers to the big questions are "because that is what Martin wants".  But it doesn't necessarily satisfy me.  I want to know WHY Martin would have Jon die.  If the answer is to heighten drama, then my reply is that death is not necessary in order to do this.  You can simply have Jon near death, rather than dead and needing resurrection.  Consider the amount of drama that the assassination/attempt has generated, simply because we do not know the end result.  Not knowing is the hardest they say.  In this manner, Martin has already achieved the height of drama he can from the act.  At this point, he simply needs to bring him back in the most realistic, least-cheesy way possible in order to maintain the level of verisimilitude.  The illusion that it is taking place in a plausible world rather than in the mind of a fantasist.

 

 

However, the Ghost thing would also happen if Jon is not dead but merely in a coma. The hints are too strong to expect anything else there, and it would be a rather big stretch to assume that the situation at the Wall will be resolved in a way that makes the magical healing of the comatose/near-dead/believed to be dead former Lord Commander a top priority.

 

I'm not buying what you refer to as hints.  I believe they can be just as useful for misleading a reader as they can be for foreshadowing.  Besides, they ruin the mystery for me.  I like not knowing what is going to happen, it heightens the drama and makes the world more real, so I spend less time "looking at hints". Instead of looking at clues in the text, I look for the overall direction of the narrative. 

 

People who are stabbed do not fall into comas.  People who are stabbed bleed out or die due to serious damage to critical organs, like the lungs.  Comas are usually brought about by head trauma, or particular, long lasting forms of oxygen starvation to the brain.  You can say that oxygen starvation to the brain is brought about by bleeding out, but at this point, when you reach heart failure due to hypovolemia and hypotension, you need to immediately replace the blood lost with more blood or something else that can carry oxygen to cells.  Then you have to do CPR until the heart kicks back in, because if the brain is going, you can be certain that the heart has failed as well. 

 

Again, I know that GRRM isn't a doctor, and ASOIAF isn't ER, but I dont' see how coma comes into it. 

 

 

I agree that changes in character should be able to be perceived by others if they show erratic behavior, but for that you have to consciously reflect how others look at you, behave around your, or treat you. For instance, Daenerys realizes that her people think her mad shortly before she jumps on the pyre but Cersei doesn't really understand that many people surrounding her in AFfC might think the same. Any magical transformation could work on a level that the POV doesn't really understand, and subsequently doesn't/cannot reflect.

1.  In Dany's case we are witnessing the event from her own POV, so we are aware of her thought process.

 

2.  Even if the events were not from her POV, say from a Jorah POV, we can easily guess that the behavioral changes are caused by stress brought on by current events.  There is no necessity to look for any outside magical influence such as possession. 

[DarkSister1001]

I think it's much more liekly that he isn't dead.  Only mostly dead.  He'll be wargged into Ghost so from an outsiders perspective he'll appear dead.  He'll be placed on a funeral pyre, either in the Wildling way or as an offering from Mel to Red Rhaloooo.  Bran's fall and coma strengthened his gift.  Near-death experiences seem to increase powers.  During his Ghost Staycation he'll learn of his parentage, of Bran, BR and more.  Val will save him from Mel's fires and nurse him back to life.  If he loses something it could be his memory of Ygritte (tear).  The way Beric lost his memory of his lady.  But he'll gain knowledge he didn't have before and an increase in his warg abilities.  So that wouldn't necessary be against GRRMs stance on bringing ppl back from the dead different, if they never actually die.