Mel can't revive Jon

[The Dwarfs Penny]

i like to imagine that he never felt the fourth knife only the cold because ghost knocked him down them proceeded to clean house. How awesom would it be if GRRM gives us a POV along the lines of "The black brother" or "The watcher" and it is a sworn brother witnessing the assassination and ghost knocking Jon down and ripping out Bowen marsh's throat or disembowling wick whittle stick and saving Jon from the final blows. I know ghost is locked away but maybe Mel unlocked the door because she saw it in her flames and told Jon to keep his wolf close

[Lord Varys]

Borroq will be the one who realizes that Jon's spirit has survived and begun his second life in Ghost. That's why this 'skinchangers always recognize each other' thing has been established. When exactly that's going to happen will depend what happens next, and when exactly Borroq will meet Ghost again.

 

My idea about the Targaryen blood there is that Thoros apparently failed to resurrect anyone besides Beric. One assumes that he gave/is giving the standard funeral rites of R'hllor to others as well, especially now that there are many converts among the Brotherhood.

 

A working 'magical resurrection matrix' can than be passed on by a resurrected person to somebody else - like Beric did when he resurrected Catelyn. Although Catelyn and her children may have a drop of Targaryen blood, too, if there was a Tully-Lothston marriage in the last century or so. We know the Lothstons are effectively a bastard branch of House Targaryen, founded by Aegon the Unworthy, and there are confirmed marriages between quite a lot of Lords of Harrenhal and the Tullys so that it would not come as a surprise if a Lothston was among Catelyn's ancestors. But that assumption is not necessary. It might be that the spell is just stabilized if it reacts with dragonlord blood, and can then be passed on to anyone else.

[TheLordProtector]

Ah but Lord Varys; How then did Beric transfer the flame to Catelyn. Or id that different gravy altogether?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Hmm, who's to say that appart from the R'hllor rituals, Mel does not also know of other maegi methods, as the one Mirri used on Drogo?

[Karlsmakinmusic]

Even if I assume she can't it makes so much sense from a narrative stand point that I can't see it playing out any other way

[Mithras]

Val should know maegi methods too.

 

Born amidst blonde and redhead.

[~DarkHorse~]

My rejection to Mel resurrecting Jon idea is that I think it is more likely that Mel will try to roast him alive as blood sacrifice before he dies.

 

I would actually like for this to happen. It seems more appropriate for her character and goes against what the readers are expecting.

 

It depends on how she interprets, "R'hllor shows me only Snow." If she still views Stannis as Azor Ahai then what other use does a severely injured (assuming he is not dead) Jon have for R'hllor? Yep, sacrifice.

 

However, D&D revealing that Shireen will be burnt alive makes me think that her sacrifice will have something to do with Jon and Mel, so I'm not sure.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Val should know maegi methods too.

 

Born amidst blonde and redhead.

 

For some reason, this felt like "between Scylla and Charybdis".

[Lord Varys]

Blood sacrifice stuff seems to be unlikely for that whole thing is you ask me. Melisandre wouldn't have any reason to suddenly 'conclude' that Jon Snow was important enough to warrant such a radical way, and the idea that she would want to resurrect Stannis from the distance by sacrificing Shireen seems to be completely at odds with what George has revealed about the Shireen thing - that he has not yet any scene involving Shireen similar to the one in the TV show. Not to mention that the TV show clearly made Stannis sacrificing his own daughter - a decision the show runners explicitly blamed on George. Thus one should expect that, unless they are lying or erratic, it will be Stannis who decides to sacrifice Shireen. Melisandre will not do that on her own, and certainly not to try to resurrect a Stannis she may not even believe is dead. If she had bought the story she should have collapsed or shown some other serious reaction when Jon read the Pink Letter in her presence. But she just left the hall.

 

A completely different approach could be Jon becoming a sort of wight of the Coldhands type. We have those corpses in the ice cells, and if Jon's body, for some reason, ends up in there he could become infected by the wight curse (if it can be transferred from one corpse to another) and subsequently become a wight himself. My idea on Coldhands is that he effectively pulled off what Jon has to do one way or the other - reclaiming his own body after its death/resurrection through skinchanging. Coldhands has been revived by the spell of the Others but the connection to them has been severed - possibly by his spirit skinchanging back into the body. In the wight scenario Jon would be able to reclaim his wightified body, in the other scenario he would skinchange back into his soulless resurrected body which would be in a Drogo-like state up until that point.

 

The idea of a Victarion-like healing process is a possibility, too, however I hope that nothing of this sort happens since, depending on the number of Jon's injuries, he really might look horrible thereafter. In essence, that wouldn't be less a transformation than a total resurrection, I think. And an author like George doesn't really kill a character as a filler. Jon's death and resurrection will be a real death and resurrection. The skinchanging allows to cheat a bit, but his body really is fried. And we should not underestimate the effect a prolonged stay in Ghost may have on his humanity and character. We know that you become more and more an animal in your second life, after all.

 

Another possibility would be that Jon simply high-jacks another person's body if his own body is neither healed nor resurrected. That would be a controversial decision, of course, but it would still be him and all. And identity in Martinworld seems to be attached to the 'spirit' not the body. I have no idea whom Jon might be able to overtake in this fashion or whether he would actually be able to pull that off.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^Hodor.

[RedShirt47]

I think Jon will warg Ghost. Mel will do her funeral prayer which does ressurect Jon but he will be mindless like Drogo was after MMD.
Perhaps he will remain a bed for some time but eventually Mel will give up on him and decide that he would be better off burnt (as Dany did). But during this pyre Ghost senses that Jon is around and Jon returns to his body and wakes up. He will be altered by death, ressurection and wolf life.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Lord varys I think your ideas about possible Targ blood in Both Beric & cat are plausible. And I see your point that surely Thoros would have performed the fire kiss on more than one of the brotherhood, given that they have all converted. And thus why would it only have worked the once. 

I also see the point in concluding that perhaps once the fire is stabilised it can be passed on to whoever. 

I am how ether a bit reluctant to make such a big assumption (needing dragon lord blood) based upon something which is not directly in the text. ie: no where are we told Thoros has tried it and failed with other dead bodies. 

needs more evidence imo. 

 

Yea I get that fire healing would leave Jon with some errr unsightly burnt up lesions. I just truly abhor the idea of unjon. I am reluctant to allow it any credence at all, and always have been. I think if he can use Ghost to save his soul then maybe just maybe I can get on board with it a bit more.

I agree that no way is Shireen sacrificed for Jon. We have zero evidence that Mel would need to do such a thing, and I have always been uncomfortable with the concept. It felt way too much of a reach given that we know Thoros didn't need a sacrifice. 

 

I have an interesting half theory, more an idea really I'd like to run by you in regards to dragonbinder. 

 

 

I am Dragonbinder ... No mortal man should sound me and live ... Blood for fire, fire for blood

 

these are the words on the horn, and I have begun contemplating the idea that you need a fire wight to blow the horn for you. we know that there is a literal flame inside them, and they are no mortal man taht is for sure. the slave who blew it at the kingsmoot burnt up from the inside out, but if you have a fire inside you already, surely that wouldn't effect you? what are your thoughts?

 

 

I also am increasingly convinced that MMD used the R'hllor spell/prayer on drogo, but that she sucked his soul out first using shadow binding magic's. Hence the shadows dancing in the tent. I'm not sure how they represent aspects of Drogo though as a wolf and a man sheaved in flames? it is just a kinda theory in progress currently though. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

double post

[Faint]

The show really seems to bolster the theory because it went through considerable trouble to put the mechanism in place for Melisandre to resurrect Jon, including having the former conveniently warp around Westeros at the speed of sound to put her at locations at times of contrived convenience. 

[butterbumps!]

[mod]   please avoid all show talk in the book forum.  yes, even for this subject.   what might be the case in the show is not necessarily what will happen in the books, and show talk is just not allowed over on this side.  thanks.  [/mod]

[mywintersong]

If Melissamdre tried to burn Jon, or if Jon is burned on a funeral pyre, and he is somehow reborn, this would be a good parallel of Dany. if you ascribe to the idea that AA it's really multiple people, a metaphor more than a person.

It seems that all Thoros does at first is a mercy killing...doesn't he say that he gives him the kiss when he saw.that Beric could not survive. The kids it's blowing due down a person's throat into their kings to burn them inside, a quick death. It was a funeral rite, not a spell to raise the dead. It seems like the magic suddenly got a mind of its own.

[Moiraine Sedai]

The vast majority of fans, books and show, seem to take it as a given that Jon is as dead as Ned. 

 

There is a nervous, desperate few that really want to theorize him back to life.   :eek:

[Avlonnic]

The vast majority of fans, books and show, seem to take it as a given that Mel can revive Jon, based on Thoros reviving Beric.

What if she can't? She has never revived anyone. She is pretty clear in her POV that red priests and priestesses do not all have the same abilities. Why does everyone automatically assume she has the same abilities as Thoros, when we know that he can not do what she can?

I think she may try, but it doesn't work. Jon will not be revived until whoever holds the torch (Thoros -> Beric -> Stoneheart -> ? -> ) passes it to Jon. Perhaps this happens because the BWB are captured and sent to the Wall. Or maybe it happens because they go there willingly, or because Mel goes to find them.

 

~ No!  I hope this is not foreshadowing:   

 

[Quote: ASOS; Arya XI; from the Hound:]   "Stupid little bitch." Fires glinted off the snout of his helm, and made the steel teeth shine. "You go in there, you won't come out. Maybe Frey will let you kiss your mother's corpse."   [/Quote]

 

 

I don't think he's dead-dead and in need of resurrection. I think he needs healing, and what MMD botched up with Drogo, will succeed because there's a whole wall with magical wards inside for Mel to tap into inadvertently (she feels so powerful there, what magic she could work there, yadayada). Super healed Jon with ice magic (more badass than Vic's arm), but ieny miny magic left in the wall. If the others huff, and puff they'll bring the Wall down (especially if some fool blows some horn somewhere).

 

The less attractive alternative - Jon ends up sharing an ice cell with those 2 wildling dead he thought he could put to use.

 

~ Your Wall magic idea is quite intriguing, of course. 

 

 

George has effectively established that Thoros is just going through the motions of a R'hllorian prayer with his resurrection stuff.

 

And by the way: My guess is that the explanation for why the spell worked on Beric - and may work on Jon Snow - is that the Dondarrions have a drop of Targaryen blood.

 

~ The dragonblood idea is a very interesting premise, LV, either instead of or in addition to the rise of magic throughout the world.  I like it.  However, in Beric's case, I confess I like the importance of the location of the Riverlands and connotations of the Underworld quite a bit.

[Avlonnic]

She doesn't have to revive anybody, she just has to heal Jon's body enough for him to warg back into it.  

Didn't Varamyr only leave his own body behind because that wildling boy stabbed it/him?

 

 

 

Medieval/ancient medicine couldn't heal gut injuries, and Jon has a dagger buried in his stomach. <snip>

 

~ In Game of Thrones, Littlefinger recovers slowly from a ferocious gut wound delivered during the duel with Brandon.  Cat feared it would be mortal but he was well enough to travel in weeks.

 

 

<snip>

 

~ I fully agree with you in that I find the involvement of pyro-Melisandre and R'hllor repugnant.  I would prefer that assistance in healing be rendered by either Val or the "old wisewoman revered by the peoples of the Milkwater" (as was mentioned in ADWD, Jon III) - - unless there is something nefarious with them as well.  Ugh. 

 

 

Hmm, who's to say that appart from the R'hllor rituals, Mel does not also know of other maegi methods, as the one Mirri used on Drogo?

 

~ It seems possible that Mirri switched over to the spell required to help with the ritual as she was burning.  She learned magic from many lands during her time in Asshai.

 

 

Another possibility would be that Jon simply high-jacks another person's body if his own body is neither healed nor resurrected. That would be a controversial decision, of course, but it would still be him and all. And identity in Martinworld seems to be attached to the 'spirit' not the body. I have no idea whom Jon might be able to overtake in this fashion or whether he would actually be able to pull that off.

 

~ He has bodies available but Varamyr's prologue implies that Jon will be trapped if his own skinchanging-talented body dies while he is in a different body.  For example, he could try to borrow Wun Wun like Bran borrows Hodor.  Or, the two bodies in the ice cells are awaiting their destiny, should they ever be moved from beneath the magic Wall.  But Jon would be unlikely to be able to skinchange Ghost if he changed bodies...with the exception of Borroq?  Hmm...         Nah...

[Fire Eater]

I think it would be a trite overuse of that trick to have it used on Jon. Besides, his character arc would end there as his memories and personality would diminish. I think it is more likely BranRaven resurrects him, and Melisandre gives her help unintentionally.